Monks very weak. Need rebalance

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

Once I get my sim for monks we can get a fair comparison =)

As of now on a stand still backstabbable target, Dragoon eeks out ahead of Bard but not by much, though is much more sustainable TP wise. Bard TP consumption is still through the roof, and I imagine monk will be as well.

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Yes, I'm looking forward to your results. We really need a proper sim.

I still have a hard time believing monk damage is higher than DRG. I suppose I'll have to sim it, tentatively by thursday evening.

DRG's combo is just so much more (almost twice) as much potency as the monk combo, and even the IDC combo is comparable.

I suppose the 21% damage increase is nice, but its 10% over DE and .4? faster skillspeed vs absolutely massive potency and better oGCDs.

EDIT: I got confused between monk and lancer buffs

Its basically TS = HT

DK = DE

Glx3 vs bigger base potencies

I can't remember which one has better DoTs.

The DOTs don't inherently make an enormous difference.

Monk's DOTs tick for higher though.

The bigger base potencies is balanced by the lower MNK GCD. A TTT DRG combo is ~87 PPS. A monk DK-TW-SP combo has 78.3 ... hmm, I guess it doesn't completely make up for it, but then you have GL3 damage as well as Fists of Fire. Those two combined significantly exceed the DRG base potency advantage.

The OGCDs are slightly in favor of the DRG -- Leg Sweep is a lower cooldown than Steel Peak, and Jumps > Howling Fist.

So it goes back and forth, but the 21% from GL3 is pretty big.

The last bit is that optimal Monk DPS is much less likely to be achieved than Dragoon DPS. This is "obvious" re: Monk positionals, but the basic assessment is this:

1. Dragoons lose more DPS from a failed input/position (lose 70-150 potency due to alternative cost of lost combos in addition to raw potency penalty).
2. Monks have many many more position checks than Dragoons. Each penalizes the Monk less individually, but they add up.

This is besides the possibility of GL3 straight dropping. These penalties will drop Monk "real" DPS significantly more than DRG will drop below theoretical.

^This (EasymodeX). Well, I'm finding myself often agree with you definitely.

Monk is not the worst DPSer, he can compete very well with current top DPS which are SMN and BRD (yes to all of you bards on the other post claiming Bard don't need a nerf - "reworking" -, just learn to DPS. In our FC, our Bards can deal with BC Turn 4 knight ALONE with only one 90 piece of gear during phase 5) WHEN planets are aligned. And this is where the bad part of the monk is. But be careful SE while improving melees, they could be overtuned very quickly (we scale damnly good with Det / Crit).

Also to Skill Speed monks, just switch from PoV, GL3 against Skill Speed creates a logarithmic curve as far as stat efficiency is concerned just because of those 15% skill speed which is far ahead of amount given by skill speed and Det / Crit is far more scalable. While you'are aiming for the 2 sec GCD first cap and so 490+ Skill Speed (try witth 90 stuff sim ? haha) and less than 430 crit, 200 det, I'll go for 2.10 (omg, 0.10 sec lost) which is already enough (even more with crit) to keep True Strike above Twin Snakes 1/2 cycle (unless you are Dotting OGCD) with 500+ crit and ~ 300 det. In fact, with 2 sec, you'll need so much Skill Speed that you'll fall under crit / det builds a lot.

However, a fact I didn't see atm on the forums (didn't looked at all the post however) is this :

DRG is prefered for Turn 5 (and even before) cause of + 10% piercing dmg for bards ! (why so many people forgot that ???) If you have good Bards, they'll know how to benefits from him, I assure you...
They have also more armor, and no stance duration or availability problems. They also have 3 DoTs like us, which is 45% of our DPS as a melee so our DPS don't compensate all the advantaged I just spoke about. THIS is a problem and this is also why many BC Turn 5 take a DRG instead of Monk (cause yes, reality is Monk are not favoured for Turn 5, I assure you).

Ideas that I find great :

1) Losing only one stack of GL instead of 3
2) Shoulder tackle GL refresh (maybe too much) and why not lowering the GCD ... I didn't see any problem at all with that so far but well ... I'd like to charge more :p
3) Increase duration of stances
4) Maybe come back to +5% on Fire Fist ... this has to be tested cause we scale very well with + damage bonus (as any fast melee in any MMOs, hard to change cause of scaling) or more clever : + 15% instead of 10% for Dragon Kick (in order to give an advantage against dragoon buff - unless -+ 10% blunt will serve for another job later ... which I don't believe unless they add a spoon fighter ? xD.
5) Aggro diminution ! (if you're not top aggro, you're doing it wrong)

From Turn 5 monk.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Can you source the sample test?

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Of course he can't.

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Originally Posted by Naalya-Deix

current top DPS which are SMN and BRD

3 DoTs like us, which is 45% of our DPS

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Please stop

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

I still have a hard time believing monk damage is higher than DRG. I suppose I'll have to sim it, tentatively by thursday evening.

DRG's combo is just so much more (almost twice) as much potency as the monk combo, and even the IDC combo is comparable.

I suppose the 21% damage increase is nice, but its 10% over DE and .4? faster skillspeed vs absolutely massive potency and better oGCDs.

EDIT: I got confused between monk and lancer buffs

Its basically TS = HT

DK = DE

Glx3 vs bigger base potencies

I can't remember which one has better DoTs.

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You are right, MNK and DRG DPS are very similar. DRG won on burst Dmg and aoe. DRG is better than MNK for in coming pvp. MNK won for a long term fight or some boss fight drg can't always stay on tail side of boss, such T1. DRG boost bard Dmg, overall most group still favor DRG than MNK.

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Originally Posted by Rapiso

Please stop

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The DoT's are for "Dragoon VS Monk part".
For SMN, I guess you're a dumbass if you don't think of it as the top DPS currently.
For BRD, it's normal you don't think of him as a top DPS while there is so many BRD out there that don't know how to DPS. Even with Song, our best bard with only not a lot of 90 pieces can deal perfectly with one knight (grey ones) ALONE. I can't.
Even our bards say they need to be a little bit changed in order not to pull out so much burst so often while not being disadvantaged by moves.

I am sure if bard DPS is on the top, but if you watch team threaten order. bard is very easy on the top after tank. Many poor MNKs are aways on the bottom.

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Originally Posted by Naalya-Deix

The DoT's are for "Dragoon VS Monk part".
For SMN, I guess you're a dumbass if you don't think of it as the top DPS currently.
For BRD, it's normal you don't think of him as a top DPS while there is so many BRD out there that don't know how to DPS. Even with Song, our best bard with only not a lot of 90 pieces can deal perfectly with one knight (grey ones) ALONE. I can't.
Even our bards say they need to be a little bit changed in order not to pull out so much burst so often while not being disadvantaged by moves.

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Bard is still the lowest dps of this game.

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Originally Posted by neoreturn

I am sure if bard DPS is on the top, but if you watch team threaten order. bard is very easy on the top after tank. Many poor MNKs are aways on the bottom.

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Only if the monk is bad which I'll say again you should reroll or stop spouting bs you know nothing about.

About the only person who comes above me (except tank) is a SMN with relic+1 and AF1.5 gear, and ONLY if they're using fester.
I have my relic+1 and partial DL. It takes you a while to "start up", don't forget to keep DoTs up and you should be fine.

I see so many monks having troubles with their rotations and saying monk is so hard to play/too much work... honestly, I don't see it. Nor are they weak.

There is no way in hell bard is top except on extremely movement heavy fights.

Dragoon is simming ~5% higher base potency wise, and that is without the bard's 10% hit on weapon damage.

I don't know monk enough to comment, and I don't have a good idea of DoM vs DoW atm, but at the very least perfect rotation DRG is better than perfect rotation bard.

Later in the week I will likely modify the sim so that it can handle random and fixed duration/time (normal distributed) downtimes to model melee more realistically.

To be top dps as a monk there are a few things you need to be aware of:
1) Gear - Just like every other class the gear you have is very important.
2) Rotation & Practice with said rotation - Knowing what skills to use and when and what buffs to use and when and keeping up with the DoTs as a monk is a crucial part of them being Top dps.
3) Movement Heavy Fights - if the fight involves avoiding aoes from bosses then it is going to affect the dps of the monk and even dragoons dmg during the fight.

I'm always on top of any raid I do me other my smn friend.

MNK's main issue is the complete loss of GL3. Thie should be tiered. Or if they still refrain from making it a decay loss of GL i.e. 3 > 2 > 1 then certain abilities like Steal Peak, Shoulder tackle should grant 1 charge of GL. As it stands primal fights running to next mobs will always be a huge dps drain on MNK. Yoshi said slight changes are heading to MNK so lets hope that it is something related to GL. As for Haymaker, in 1.0 it used to be my most loved ability, but MNK was also able to tank in 1.0 (yes it tanked primals) but in 2.0 it doesnt have that utility sadly so maybe a rethink of its application?

Either way if MNK is able to maintain DoT's fairly well, and maintain GL3, they damage goes through the roof. As previously stated, MNK is stat based more than others and gear will really make the difference if topping the dps parser is your thing but seeing as how unreliable they are, should they be?

Funny how people say "I'm the top of any on my raid". What means "the top" for ya ? What visual information or parsing information show this to you ? Parsers are WRONG at least as far as FFXIVAPP is concerned.

- He misses some hits
- He transfers DoT's damage and count it for some other people in your raid (including you, so if you're lucky with the parser, you'll be doing SMN DoT's damage ...)

I told a bard in our FC can deal ALONE with knight P5 in turn 4 (before drill). I can't do the same burst he does so often. And please, do turn 4 without bard PT song and come back to me for being "top DPS". Also, Monk AoE is "fair", but far behind BRD one. So yeah, a BRD even with song that know how to optimize CDs / Phases and skills will be TOP with SMN visually speaking. Unless on boss and without AoE, Monk can compete which happens on turn 1 & 2, certainly not 4 and 5, not Ifrit, titan depends. And all of this to a higher cost.
BEWARE, I'm not saying we don't do DPS at all. I DO, but as not so often as mentionned jobs and I KNOW with BiS Crit / Det I'll rocket them in the ass pushing my DPS up in the sky.

As for DRG discussion, there is no point to discuss, we personnaly take only one melee for LB and it's often a DRG to bring 10% to our bards mainly even if we are not silly and Monks play also.
Also, Mantra is a useless joke and this is the only group "advantage" for us to be selected.

But please, do Turn 5 before saying Monk (melee in general) are good. HAHA.

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Originally Posted by Naalya-Deix

I told a bard in our FC can deal ALONE with knight P5 in turn 4 (before drill). I can't do the same burst he does so often. And please, do turn 4 without bard PT song and come back to me for being "top DPS".

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Really wish you would stop tauting this like it's some sort of MASSIVE DPS ACCOMPLISHMENT

Bard dps

a.) Ranged! meaning they don't have to deal with defense
b.) Mobile! So they can do it while kiting, all day!
c.) Position free! So they can pewpew while they kite and not suffer dps loss for it!
D.) Simple. 5 buttons! two of which is only hit on procs, two of which are 24 second dots! (No, serious, two dots, venom/windbite, bloodletter only when the dots reset it's cooldown, Straight shot for buff, the nyou spam heavy shot until the auto-crit straight shot procs. It's not hard. at all.)

Couple with the fact that they have raging strikes for short (but hard), burst, compared to the wind-up, position-heavy, melee-centric dps of Monks.

Yes, they're going to be able to do things we can't, not because their dps is higher, but because their dps requires less effort. They can do full dps while running around and not lose a step, they can do full dps while 30 ylm away and not have to worry about getting hit. In the situation you keep saying is proof of their AMAZING dps, all of those factors lead to the bard having an easier time handling the situation, but that != higher dps, it just equals biased fight mechanics

Moreover, DPS is fight-long, not a 15 second burst during raging strikes. Js.

You are misunderstanding the complete meanings of my words. I said we are top DPS if planets are aligned, which never happens in end game and if you put a step in Coil turn 5 yet, you know what I'm talking about.
Fact is : tank and spank fight doesn't exist right now and bad design mechanics make other job higher in DPS than us overall OR as my FC mates are saying right now "monk at the top overall are playing with bad players".

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Originally Posted by Naalya-Deix

You are misunderstanding the complete meanings of my words. I said we are top DPS if planets are aligned, which never happens in end game and if you put a step in Coil turn 5 yet, you know what I'm talking about.
Fact is : tank and spank fight doesn't exist right now and bad design mechanics make other job higher in DPS than us overall OR as my FC mates are saying right now "monk at the top overall are playing with bad players".

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.. or the other way around? PLenty of people are regularly topping dps by perfecting rotations, getting movement patterns to rote, there are ways around the melee unfriendliness. But Bards are NOT the highest dps, they're below both BLM's AND Summoners, if we're discounting melee altogether. This is evident by simple numbers. the highest potency bard ability is 150. Fire I is above that with AF3, Fire III is waaay above that, Dots stack above that easily for summoners too.'


As you noted, the parser is broken, but there are ways to test it in a sterile environment, find a dummies, don't aoe. you won't get any miscounted dots, as theres no targets to attribute tehm to but you, the abilities not counted by the parser are well known and documented. Is it perfect? no. But the fact stands bards have NO uncounted abilities and average 30%dps lower than monks, with Summoners nearing monks themselves, -before- pets.

Not that it matter, bards are easy to play, and bring an important role to a group (songs), so even if they do tank-level dps, they're viable.

TLDR; Not trying to bust your balls or anything, but what you're providing with that example is called Anecdotal Evidence, that is, evidence that's essentially hearsay. "you know a guy who can..." -- that is , you are using a story, with no hard facts, about a very specific example, in a very specific scenario, and going "This disproves all other theories and evidence."

Science, math, none of those work that way. Anecdotal evidence is only valid in cases where empirical evidence is hard, or difficult to obtain (As is often the case in criminal investigations, if there wasn't a recording or evidence, you are stuck basing the investigation off the words of those who witnessed it.)

In this case, both this thread and the monk temple thread have pages of posts mathing out the individual viabiity of each stat, and the P/S of monk rotations, there's a post with a spreadsheet simulator that simulates bard P/s and dps in a vacuum, comparing those two alone is enough to provide hard evidence to refute your claim, but you can go a step further, these forums are alight with people sharing techniques, posting videos o them mastering fights so the simple movement requirements of a monk CAN be mastered. The parser not good enough for you? the faults, follies, and un-recorded skills of the parser are well documented, plenty of people have put a large amount of effort into fguring out how to adjust for inflation/loss from the parsers bugs to get accurate ballpark numbers (Solo, on dummies, counting the ticks/potency/average damage of skills that aren't counted and manually adding them, etc.) -- which FURTHER supports the evidence.

Your story is the story of YOUR fc, and YOUR experience, but nowhere, outside of "bards can solo one of the adds when really well geared!" do you provide any proof that bards are superior to ALL OTHER CLASSES in dps, or as you say, "near the top.", nor that only "bad parties say monk is the best dps."

Stories can be made up, numbers, numbers don't lie.

Also: I'm really bad at tldring.

Makes me laugh cause you are speaking to a computer architect. So I'm used to math and so. Furthermore, all of the math in your post, I've done it way before most of them during Beta 2. I have a google drive with lot of documents for my Monk mates. You're speaking to a "convinced by number man" and may my words are misleading about it sorry 'bout that. I'm not saying that bards is top DPS by "theorical" numbers, but effectively (Empirical and experiment = As you said, boss mechanics, randomness of some Monk buff, melee situation make us very not favoured for most of bosses ...). ... ".

Again, I know if I stuck to a dummy I'll do more than bard (but not a good SMN I assure you) but this is not the case in end game content and this as to be reworked a little bit (either by adjusting monk drawbacks or game mechanics but ... be careful while doing that cause we are extremely hard to design without bad side effect).

It's like while designing an Information System and a "young" engineer tells me : "ho you know, this is better to do this mathematically". I'll often answer : "Experiment and years teaches you often something else than theorical best practices because you don't want side effect or you prefer to secure the whole system".

.. Years and experience teach fine, but you are still only providing -one- example, in a -specific- case, and ignoring the literally, dozens of other fights and variables. That's.. not very empirical. Just because that's YOUR experience, with YOUR fc, does not equate to it being raw fact without some sort of proof other than "this is how it is for me!"

Personally i think Monk is the strongest DPS if he/she is played by someone who is good at playing him/her and has some decent gear to support the damage. :p
Sure because of the required positions and always to be on the move to evade any AOEs it's hard to play the Monk. But nobody should because of that say the Monk damage is lower than any other Range DPS. If you do less damage than a Range DPS your gear either is worser or you just suck at playing the class ;)
Another note ^^
Every DPS should first of all make the relic +1 and shouldn't waste any myths for his other gear. Because Weapon Damage > the rest of the stats in different order.
I'm not implying that anyone here did it wrong but a dragoon from my fc bought at the start some pieces of his AF2 gear and is still missing his +1 relic.

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Originally Posted by Naalya-Deix

But please, do Turn 5 before saying Monk (melee in general) are good. HAHA.

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Turn 5 monk here! Been on turn 5 for longer than you most certainly. We run DRG, MNK, BLM, WHM, SCH, PLD, PLD. We get to twister phase everytime with dreadknights. So yes, Monks (melee) in general are good. We can burst down Conflags with 3 stacks. I can eat a fireball with 2 people stacked with me. I've recently stepped down as the primary Monk for progression because I can't dedicate the time anymore. Our FC replaced me with... another FC Monk. Bard is on bottom when it comes to DPS. I can goof and still beat our FC Bards. And our turn 5 Bards on are no slouches either. We don't carry anyone. We demand the highest out of our progression group. If you don't perform, you're out.

You suggesting that melee cannot perform as well as Bards in coil is preposterous. Based on anecdotal evidence no less, despite the large amounts of evidence to the contrary. Well, I've provided my own anecdotal evidence by your own admission that we needed to be on turn 5 to suggest Monk is "good"

Edit: Also we destroy Turn 4, it's like fighting trash mobs now. Saying that Bards can solo a Knight on wave 5 isn't saying much being as they are out of range and can kite. The dreadnaughts aren't even hitting the tanks hard with 0 stacks so the bard can be healed. If I wanted to be a MP sponge, I could solo a knight too. Hell, our BLM can solo his soldier. Using the visual confirmation that "My bard can solo a knight" is laughable as anything when it comes to actually suggesting that it's any kind of DPS measure.

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Originally Posted by Ryougi

.. Years and experience teach fine, but you are still only providing -one- example, in a -specific- case, and ignoring the literally, dozens of other fights and variables. That's.. not very empirical. Just because that's YOUR experience, with YOUR fc, does not equate to it being raw fact without some sort of proof other than "this is how it is for me!"

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Find me some monks that are taken in FC groups for turn 5 buddy ! ;).

EDIT : Ris is. Well, there are other forums / post where you find videos where you see SO FEW monks ... If you do fine there, yeah it's OKAY, but not optimal as far as we are considering the thing ... prefering SMN for example.

Umm, how is it surprising that a Bard, who has 5 damage cooldowns, can burst a single target Knight effectively compared to other classes who have fewer damage cooldowns ... specifically a Monk who may drop GL between phase 1 and 2 depending on timing?

No one says monk DPS is on the bottom, and no other class agree monk DPS is on the top either. when I play with other dps, my DPS is aways on the top, so what? You are not doing some DPS 30 or 50% higher than others. I have also played with lots of other monks and their DPS is aways on the bottom. From DPS point of view monk DPS is ok, if you doing good, you can be on top, if you doing bad you will on the bottom. Same to all other class. Monk is hard to play and without advantage. monk isn't popular and hard to find group which SE should give monk some help. monk will be at even worse situation when pvp coming if monk can't do any burst Dmg.

Just buff GL duration, in its current state i feel like its our biggest problem

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Originally Posted by neoreturn

You are not doing some DPS 30 or 50% higher than others.

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Is anyone really saying that? At most, I've seen that monks are some of the highest parsers (or highest). I've never seen anyone claiming to do 30% or 50% or even 20% the damage of another class. That just means SE's balance isn't a complete joke.

Monk doesn't need to be popular. Monk doesn't need to be easy either.
I don't believe we need a dps increase for all our trouble. Play monk if you want a challenge, and that's a good enough reason to make the effort.
If you're good, then you can be on the top even if GL3 falls off sometimes. That's all that matters.
Monks aren't gimped, and good monks shine. No one is calling for monk nerfs so I don't really see what you're defending.
What you've just said came off as monks are in a good place. At least that's how I read it.

Maybe because I have no interest in PvP.

As a monk that has played pug/mnk since this game came out...Monk damage seems to be either middle of the road to above average when compared to the damage that other classes/jobs are putting out during actual fights. I'm not testing on a stationary wooden dummy because nothing in this game fights like that.

In actual fights, middle of the road to slightly above....which I'm fine with.

Bard does well as everyone knows and Blackmages seem to enjoy the top damage in real fights.

By the way...I love the people that say "Monks damage is awesome.......if they just utilize a bunch of skills from other classes"

It's a fun job for me to play though and I don't plan on playing another class seriously...but I am very interested in the upgrades coming to help them preform better in actual fights when compared to other jobs.

I don't think increase GL duration time will fix monk. It will Just make monk easy to play. that's not the purpose to have a monk class in game. monk is supposed to be a hard play class by design. What monk real need is some skill could benefit group fight or increase monk Dmg. If you did good, you will be outstanding in DPS. right now is if you did perfect, your DPS is few percentage higher. If you did bad your DPS is far behind other class.

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Originally Posted by Naalya-Deix

Funny how people say "I'm the top of any on my raid". What means "the top" for ya ?

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Having the 2 on the party list with orange triangle is being "top" for me.

i think that they ll have to :

1) change the way on how GL works , for me , losing more than 15 sec to build gl3 at the beginning or if u lose while having a dps <<<< others is totally a wrong idea , because even if we starts with gl3 we have'nt a dps equal or > than other DDs and then have GL3 without stacking twice or just make our dps = to the other DD without gl and > than the others with the gl3 .

2) Change on how our silence AoD works , and put it out of GCD without any cycle to activate its effect like BRDs by increasing TP consumption or cooldown. because beeing a silence MnK involve an hight reduction of our DPS . nowadays u only see teams with 2 BRD in coil groups because of that reason ....

3) reduce the Shoulder tacle cooldown , i dont why they put way more teleportations skill to DRG but one with a huge cooldown on MnKs , even if we have a lower range OR icrease by lot our movement speed by fist of the wind .... that to prevent any gl loss.

4) reduce the cooldown of invigorate because in long fight we cannot use our best rotation and our dps to it's fullest cause of our TP loss.

5) Increase the Rockbreaker damage because we have exmly low AOE DAMAGE , (mnks aren't welcome in WP Speedruns due to that u.u)

6) icrease our usefullness in dungeons by putting any skills or wathever ... because the only reasy that the'll take us is for our LB -_- yay , drg is also herefor that ...

I think that s the only things they have to do to CORRECT the classes Balance in that game ..... it's the first game i play where mastering the hardest gameplay is totaly UNGRATEFULL , and that more when i compare our dps to the others .....

actually the mnk are the class the worst picked for coil u.u .

(sorry for my poor english btw)

Hi all. Been reading up on monk and I'm happy with the way the job is right now. I think just getting rid of positional movement from out move will help keep GL3 up at all time, lower the time on howling fist and steel peak, and take out rockbreaker from the stance.

Overall keeping up with my rotation is pretty easy, the only time where I loss GLis when I was doing Titan for the story.

Here's my rotation, remember I'm only at lvl 39.

I start with IR>ToD>run to the back>Boot>run to flank>snake>Dem( got dots up and GL1)

Then I just start with my normal rotation, I do it about twice, then back at start for applying dots, I do my best and try to apply dots the same way I do it the first try.

Back>ID>Boot>flank>Snake>Punch(GL2 up), I do this 1 more time before I do my dots again.
Then back here again IR(if its up)>ToD>run to the back>Boot>run to flank>snake>Dem.

I like the set up but I'd like some pointers. I plan on getting blood for blood and fracture. Lancers s at 15.

Also another question, was it at some point monk had a move that was similar to asuran fist, it was an 8 fold attack. I wonder what happen to that.

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Originally Posted by neoreturn

I don't think increase GL duration time will fix monk. It will Just make monk easy to play. that's not the purpose to have a monk class in game. monk is supposed to be a hard play class by design. What monk real need is some skill could benefit group fight or increase monk Dmg. If you did good, you will be outstanding in DPS. right now is if you did perfect, your DPS is few percentage higher. If you did bad your DPS is far behind other class.

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See that was my thought. I am totally cool with bringing very little utility and being harder to play properly... if it comes with the reward of doing more damage. Because of monks lack of support we could never be stacked and I think that would keep us being he highest damage by a decent amount from being broken.

Or they could just give us AoE, Burst, Support, or some combination of that because as it is we fail pretty hard in those areas.

Reyki, good words and ideas. I have almost the same (ideas).

To those, who told about "Im 1st dps in raid" Pals, are you sure in skills of other players? Are you sure they dodnt make any mistakes and so on? How can you compare your dps and their dps if you dont even know how do they play. As for me- I can challenge my dps only with.... myself, with my clone. And only such challenge could be fair and only by this way I can see what class has most dps. But I have no clone so I dodnt even think about comparing my dps and dps of some (maybe) lagging man, playing with USB modem. It is funny and stupid, realy)))

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Originally Posted by Onyxys

Reyki, good words and ideas. I have almost the same (ideas).

To those, who told about "Im 1st dps in raid" Pals, are you sure in skills of other players? Are you sure they dodnt make any mistakes and so on? How can you compare your dps and their dps if you dont even know how do they play. As for me- I can challenge my dps only with.... myself, with my clone. And only such challenge could be fair and only by this way I can see what class has most dps. But I have no clone so I dodnt even think about comparing my dps and dps of some (maybe) lagging man, playing with USB modem. It is funny and stupid, realy)))

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I do play both Monk and Dragoon and my Monk deals more damage (despite slightly worse gear). Dont know why you would think that you deal less damage then dragoons. Dont get fooled by the lower potency on your attacks - you dont compare SMN to a BLM and say they suck because ruin is only 80 potency. You need to consider all aspects of the class.

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

I do play both Monk and Dragoon and my Monk deals more damage (despite slightly worse gear). Dont know why you would think that you deal less damage then dragoons. Dont get fooled by the lower potency on your attacks - you dont compare SMN to a BLM and say they suck because ruin is only 80 potency. You need to consider all aspects of the class.

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You are right. I think we all talking not about weakness of monks (not weakness), but we want developers make some changes: GS, Shoulder Tackle, to remove some skills out from rotation and so. To change some skills to make them realy balanse and not out from monk's main battle mechanics