Some of us are discussing content, hater.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elexia
SE stop doing the "norm"
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10-22-2012, 05:29 AMKiriA500
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10-22-2012, 05:31 AMFironI know right? I just about to talk about how fast i can open and close the main menu of a game, some of the best content i ever played.Quote:
Originally Posted by KiriA500
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10-22-2012, 05:32 AMKiriA500Have you beaten "listen to background music" yet? That was CRAZY!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Firon
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10-22-2012, 05:33 AMLirion
I sometimes turn the music off and listen to music on youtube. How about that? Cross content at its finest!
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10-22-2012, 05:33 AMStarlordHow many times we can Spam JUMP is Content! Yeah baby!! JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP! I have to reach 1,000 jumps!!! JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP JUMP!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by KiriA500
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10-22-2012, 05:34 AMFironNo but ambient sounds was much better content.Quote:
Originally Posted by KiriA500
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10-22-2012, 05:37 AMKiriA500Oh man, I haven't done that yet. I heard it's hard though...on par with "viewing weather."Quote:
Originally Posted by Firon
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10-22-2012, 05:48 AMRokien
You guys are seriously... nvm.
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10-22-2012, 05:49 AMKiriA500
Petition: Rokien, stop hating on content.
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10-22-2012, 05:51 AMSoukyuuBasically, you are saying they have to dumb the game down so it isn't too hard. They might have to adjust the difficulty of each factor, but it doesn't mean action games have to become less complex because of that. If you have 3 factors@1/3 each and add a fourth, setting each@1/4, you still get the 1.0Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
The point where we disagree is that you are saying there are no tactics involved in action combat, which is frankly pretty silly. You can't just stand there and spam punches in a well implemented system. If you can, then the system is flawed and needs adjustment.
Let's see.Quote:
I checked the definition of "fact", and that's not included.
The sun rising in the east is a fact. Some guy on the net claiming something is impossible is an opinion. For some reason you seem to be thinking your opinion is a fact. I'm sorry, you are mistaken.Quote:
Originally Posted by google
Obviously, WoW, being The Holy Grail of MMOs, is successful. Or so people say. It doesn't change the fact nearly every game that tried the same system didn't last long.Quote:
You mean like wow? Yeah, definitely unsuccessful.
Initial hype wearing off, normal phenomenon. The question is, how far this is going to continue? Will the servers become empty? How many will have to close? When? Only time will tell.Quote:
Actually the korean servers are already declining.
I didn't say targeting is the only factor defining a MMO. It's one of major defining ones though. If you don't want to see them as genres, see them as sub-genres, as they're both MMOs, just with different battle systems. You're starting to nitpick at this point though.Quote:
They're not different genres. There are a crapton of defining factors in MMORPGs other than targeting.
You missed the point of the thread then. The "norm" the thread is referring to is not the norm in handling an unsuccessful MMO, but the norm of features in a MMO. Basically, the OP wants the SE to do something original again. Whether it's a good idea or not, considering what their last attempt at originality brought us, is another thing altogether.Quote:
The "norm" in handling a MMO, when it's not successful, is to fire almost everyone, reduce the team to barebones, and go f2p until it dies. That's definitely not what SE did.
There has to be some progress for it to be called progress, originality and new ideas are part of it when done right. Yes, being original for it's own sake is a bad idea, that doesn't mean everyone should just hold unto safe ideas and recycle them over and over again.Quote:
The fact that a game has some of the same features doesn't mean it has them all. Progress doesn't mean to be revolutionary to be progressive. Originality for its own sake has no value in game development.
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10-22-2012, 05:52 AMJynxCan't say I agree with you but whatever. I had tons to do by myself in XI when my friends were not online from NA launch until I left the game seven years later. Considering I enjoyed solo play pretty heavilly, I say that speaks for itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Firon
But seriously Firon if you insist on compressing my list please list me out all the "Group" content. I'll be sure to compress it all under "Battle" But you know it's 97% of the game content I'm sure you will come up with something. -
10-22-2012, 05:52 AMdrivendawn
If it's not about fan service, this game is a complete joke.
WHY THE HELL WOULD THEY IMPLEMENT CRYSTAL TOWER?
WHY THE HELL WOULD THEY IMPLEMENT GOLDEN SAUCER?
WHY THE HELL WOULD THEY IMPLEMENT MAGITEK?
WHY THE HELL WOULD THEY IMPLEMENT A CARD GAME?
Pretty sure they have other things that they are going to implement from past FF.
Which makes me wonder, why didn't they fan service their core mmo players, *cough* ffxi *cough*
Hmm all this sounds familiar. HEY YOSHI, THOSE WORKED GREAT IN THE PAST, BUT LEAVE THE PAST IN THE PAST, STOP THE NOSTALGIA! PEOPLE HERE DON'T WANT THAT! Rokiens post in fan service vs originality. -
10-22-2012, 05:54 AMRokienYou do know, you did not quote me, please fix that. I also have no idea why you posted that in here, please expand on why you plagiarized me.Quote:
Originally Posted by drivendawn
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10-22-2012, 05:58 AMStarlordYou know what? I'm happy all of those are coming into FFXIV ARR. So "WHY THE HELL NOT?" :DQuote:
WHY THE HELL WOULD THEY IMPLEMENT CRYSTAL TOWER?
WHY THE HELL WOULD THEY IMPLEMENT GOLDEN SAUCER?
WHY THE HELL WOULD THEY IMPLEMENT MAGITEK?
WHY THE HELL WOULD THEY IMPLEMENT A CARD GAME?
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10-22-2012, 05:59 AMdrivendawnYou said this earlyer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rokien
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10-22-2012, 06:00 AMRokienI'm happy as well, soo I don't see your point?Quote:
Originally Posted by Starlord
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10-22-2012, 06:01 AMRokienI was responding to this statement right here that was stupidQuote:
Originally Posted by drivendawn
"It's not about fan service. Its about meeting a standard and playing it safe"
So I was just naming some of the fan service they had. -
10-22-2012, 06:03 AMStarlordThis thread is my point. "this game is a complete joke." Yep you should see me laughing! :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Rokien
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10-22-2012, 06:13 AMAbriaelIt means exactly that. and your equation demonstrates it. If you have to lower 1/3 to 1/4, that factor is indeed lowered.Quote:
Originally Posted by Soukyuu
Sorry, but clear cut strawman arguments don't really help your case. No one here said that there are no tactics involved in action combat. Fact is that action combat-based MMORPGs have to be less tactics/group synergies-based, to avoid overwhelming players making them less accessible and to avoid overwhelming the servers.Quote:
The point where we disagree is that you are saying there are no tactics involved in action combat, which is frankly pretty silly. You can't just stand there and spam punches in a well implemented system. If you can, then the system is flawed and needs adjustment.
Big difference in the bolded parts.
Some guy talks with MMO developers between a weekly and a daily base, when he doesn't inverview them. TERA's devs included. He's quite aware of the compromises they had to do in order to make the server structure what it is.Quote:
The sun rising in the east is a fact. Some guy on the net claiming something is impossible is an opinion. For some reason you seem to be thinking your opinion is a fact. I'm sorry, you are mistaken.
I'm quite sure they know what they're saying for a fact.
What is your opinion based on again?
Like Final Fantasy XI? Or like every long lasting MMORPG we have on the market?Quote:
Obviously, WoW, being The Holy Grail of MMOs, is successful. Or so people say. It doesn't change the fact nearly every game that tried the same system didn't last long.
One thing is for sure. It's no revolution, and it won't generate any massive audience looking at the results we had so far.Quote:
Initial hype wearing off, normal phenomenon. The question is, how far this is going to continue? Will the servers become empty? How many will have to close? When? Only time will tell.
To be completely honest most of its appeal on its current userbase is based on the art style, not on its combat.
But it's really not. The difference is in a single keypress, and considering that hitboxes in action-based mmorpg are overly large, there really isn't much difference besides a mere functional one that influences the fun factor very relatively.Quote:
I didn't say targeting is the only factor defining a MMO. It's one of major defining ones though.
Just pointing out just how weak and incredibly subjective your arguments are.Quote:
If you don't want to see them as genres, see them as sub-genres, as they're both MMOs, just with different battle systems. You're starting to nitpick at this point though.
Fact is that the definition the OP uses of "the norm" is fallacious to begin with, and shows that he has no idea of what he's talking about, but his contribution to the whole thread pretty much demonstrates that in itself.Quote:
You missed the point of the thread then. The "norm" the thread is referring to is not the norm in handling an unsuccessful MMO, but the norm of features in a MMO. Basically, the OP wants the SE to do something original again. Whether it's a good idea or not, considering what their last attempt at originality brought us, is another thing altogether.
His idea of "the norm" is limited to very few factors he cares about (he basically uses "the norm" as a derogatory definition to paint what he doesn't like in a negative light, regardless of it being the norm or not), while there are a crapton of factors that define and distingush a MMORPG from "The norm", including ARR.
You could actually easily define action-based MMOs as "the norm", for instance, as action games are a lot more widespread nowadays than games that require more reasoning and have a slower pace.
There are plenty areas where smaller innovations can bring a much larger contribution to the fun factor than radical innovations that attempt to fix what isn't wrong. A good example are TSW's investigative quests.Quote:
There has to be some progress for it to be called progress, originality and new ideas are part of it when done right. Yes, being original for it's own sake is a bad idea, that doesn't mean everyone should just hold unto safe ideas and recycle them over and over again.
Often going back to past standards pushed away by "innovation" is actually a much better choice than innovating.
Good game design isn't based on time, past, future, innovation or regression, but simply on what is fun and what isn't.
An argument based on not doing "The norm" because someone thinks that an absolutely flawed statistical pool (the commenters on a forum) represents in any way what MMORPG players want is ridiculous. If "the norm" is fun, welcome to "the norm". -
10-22-2012, 06:18 AMRokienAgain you are trying to hard to make something that is nothing.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Starlord
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10-22-2012, 06:19 AMStarlordSomething you do best.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rokien
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10-22-2012, 06:31 AMFironIf you want me too...Quote:
Originally Posted by Jynx
Group content(* Means it falls under both groups)
Sky
Sea
Kings
Story missions.*
AF quest
Unlocking jobs.*
Nyzul Isle
Assault
Garrison
Expeditionary force
Dynamis
BCNM's*
ZNM's
KSNM's
Moblin maze
Limbus
Einherjar
Synergy crafting you could do that both in groups and solo tho.
ISNM(Imperial standing NM's)
Salvage.
ANNM(Allied note NM's)
Ballista.
Brenner.
Here is some solo content
Campaign*
Behest*
Chocobo raising
Chocobo racing
Adventuring Fellow.
Pankration
Earning Reputation
Fields of Valor* -
10-22-2012, 06:33 AMStarlordTHAT'S NOT CONTENT! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Firon
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10-22-2012, 06:35 AMFironAhh forgot should have put walking around aimlessly and typing i'll edit those in later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Starlord
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10-22-2012, 06:37 AMStarlordNOW THAT'S CONTENT! =Brofist= :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Firon
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10-22-2012, 06:38 AMJynxThe only real issue is that games that have tried to use the normal formula for a hit MMORPG these days (Mainly WoWs base) have yet to recapture the lightning in a bottle that WoW was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
Hell as WoW bleeds subscribers it's hard to say that Blizzard can even recreate it. They got lucky and everyone else developement wise is trying to do the same. If anything recent MMOs that have come out strong and languished shortly after release give a bold statement that the WoW type MMO is on it's way out.
Hell it may be impossible for MMOs to ever reach the same numbers as WoW did, in the MMO space it really is a statistically anomally of the market. You need to find your playerbase and focus on it, trying too hard to please everyone leads to dissapointment on all ends of the market. When/If a MMO tries to use WoWs base and manages to hit a large subscriber base for a long time then it's a different story.
But after WoW, we just haven't seen the numbers in more recent MMOs to suggest it's a repeatable formula.
Also fun is highly subjective to alot of demographics you can't just say "If it's fun it's the norm" Like I said with the WoW style base, it's unproven to actually be "Fun" outside of WoW itself as many games have failed to capitalize on it. You could say it's like anything popular, you can't just do it again and expect the same results.
The market for all products not just games, look at movies and books Vampires and Zombies are "In" but how often does the Vampire or Zombie "Hook" actually translate into the rehashed products being as good or better than the thing they are trying to imitate?
Eventually the novelty wears off seeing something you like outside of the thing you actually enjoyed it for.
Fun is highly subjective and can't be contained to a single factor or style.
Oh I almost forgot.But seriously much of that content was either able to be done Solo as well, aside from the synergy crafts of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by Firon
Again it was all condensed under (Battle) as you felt needed for my list to be condensed. It's content for sure but it didn't make up 97% of the game. I'd say it was a 70/30 split to be honest it was a highly group based game but as per my original arugment it wasn't the only thing to do.
If you couldn't find something to do by yourself you were just being lazy. -
10-22-2012, 06:42 AMRokienI added "you can solo" next to the ones you could solo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Firon
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10-22-2012, 06:43 AMElexiaYou forgot to star:Quote:
Originally Posted by Firon
-Sky (People soloed the lesser gods plenty of times 75 cap.)
-AF Quests (You never needed a group for the majority of the quests unless you wanted to be safe.)
-Unlocking Jobs (You can solo the grand majority of all advanced classes.)
-Assaults (Most only use 2 people to enter to do it solo.)
-Story Missions (Only the fights required a group.)
-BCNMs (You clearly never did Job BCNMs)
-Limbus (People solo'd and duo'd these even at 75 cap.)
-Salvage (This is solo content now excluding the level 99 version)
-Reputation farming is a purely solo thing, but according to you, this shouldn't be considered content. -
10-22-2012, 06:47 AMFironYou guys don't understand what group and solo content is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elexia
Just because a few players manage to kill something solo that was intended for a group DOES NOT MAKE IT SOLO CONTENT A ton of job quest could not be done at lvl 30. Take the bomb you need to kill for the SAM quest it would rape you. Some of them could be soloed but a lot fo them people needed help. I'm not talking about anything after lvl 75 cap.
Also if you could read you could see a star next to bcnm's meaning its solo and group content and it was solo bcnm's before the job ones like the treasure chest bcnm..... -
10-22-2012, 06:48 AMSoukyuuQuoting you here:Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
Changing that from "a LOT less" to simply "less" makes a world of difference, since "a LOT" implies there is next to none left.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abriael
Or so some guy says...Quote:
Some guy talks with MMO developers between a weekly and a daily base, when he doesn't inverview them. TERA's devs included. He's quite aware of the compromises they had to do in order to make the server structure what it is.
We're making progress, you admit what you posted is your opinion. My opinion is based on my opinion. I'm not claiming it to be universally correct, unlike you.Quote:
What is your opinion based on again?
What do those have to do with failed copycats again?Quote:
Like Final Fantasy XI? Or like every long lasting MMORPG we have on the market?
I'd like to see you dodge, block and chain combos with only one keypress.Quote:
But it's really not. The difference is in a single keypress, and considering that hitboxes in action-based mmorpg are overly large, there really isn't much difference besides a mere functional one that influences the fun factor very relatively.
Says someone claiming the difference between action and non-action based combat is one keypress.Quote:
Just pointing out just how weak and incredibly subjective your arguments are.
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10-22-2012, 06:53 AMFiron
I bet these idiots gonna tell me Fenir was solo content as well cause a few select RDM's could solo him...
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10-22-2012, 06:58 AMAndrien
solo content in ffxi?
Its more like RDM content lmao -
10-22-2012, 07:01 AMFironYeah lol....Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrien
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10-22-2012, 07:57 AMJynxYou still have yet to tell me that a player could find himself twidling his thumbs because there was no one online, the real crux of this debate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Firon
There was plenty of content to do solo, fact is fact. -
10-22-2012, 08:30 AMBabydollIndeed. The only ones who stood around doing absolutely nothing are the ones who did not want to do anything for themselves. I always made my own parties, ran my own Dynamis and HNM LS, I did everything myself. Not that hard lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jynx
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10-22-2012, 08:40 AMArcellMaking your own parties and running LSs is productive certainly but it's not doing it "yourself". The point I believe they're trying to make is that at a certain point you did need groups to progress when content was relevant, or at least most players did. Also there should be a distinction between what content was intended for and what players actually did with it. If it was created for a group, it's group content. If players find a way to get around this and solo it, it was still created as group content. Players simply made it solo content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Babydoll
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10-22-2012, 08:51 AMXmbeiI am sure you completed Shadow Lord, Ark Angels, Black Coffin, and Promy's (pre level cap removal) and all the other Main Story fights ;D. Seriously gtfo all of you elitist dicks. You might not think yourself as one but the 3 of you are acting like it, with the whole "I can solo everything FFXI!!!! You others just fail and don't live up to my standard" (Heck Babydoll you even said that yourself, I hate elitest and when you said that I loathed you) Why you might ask? Because it is exactly you people and my friends that wouldn't help those that need it because "they weren't up to snuff to your ridiculously high standards" or "We already did it and I sure as hell don't want to do it again".Quote:
Originally Posted by Babydoll
I tried my hardest for years to get those done, What I cared about was the story and because of people in the community like what I am seeing here saying everything is solo, is the shit that made me give up, I never beat Ark Angels or Black Coffin or any of the stories except Shadow Lord, because after shouting 6 Hrs a day for 6 months straight and being ignored, you all can eat it.
Yes I am upset because I hate the Elitist attitude so many in XI had. It is reason Why I could get nothing done, (not because I didn't have skill) It was because I DIDN'T have the damn time to do any of it.... I was in the Navy, duty day every 3rd day (which is working 24hrs+a work day) then being out to sea randomly for 4 years. I could never make it into an end game shell due to these things, then when a friend would hook me up, I would get boned by the navy and 1-2 weeks later get kicked by lack of participation (not my direct fault).
The other problem with a lot of the Solo-Content that has been put up. It puts no real forward motion in character development. No XP from Quests? Yes they were fun just to do, but the rewards were small. People at least want a tangible reward for something they worked hard on solo. Self-Satisfaction in a game only goes so far.
Also again on the Elitist, If you are so amazing to do something solo, doesn't mean everyone is, so stop rubbing it in everyones face and have some humbleness. It is what turns people off of games, which will be a challenge for all the new players at ARR release because we will have a lot of people with all 50's rubbing it in the new players face and not helping them get things done because "Oh I did it myself! You weakling/bad player you should stop playing!" Instead, (and I am not saying you are not also a kind soul and help players (but for majority people that rub it in others face that they do something better than others won't do this)) why don't you help that person because obviously they are having trouble or are not confident in their own ability yet, so go help them, give them pointers while doing so and evolve a great community like early XI had, before all the elitist end game shells, and it will propegate where we all help each other! That's what I want out of ARR above all else. -
10-22-2012, 08:51 AMBabydoll
Oh..when I said I did it myself I meant...I didn't do dynamis or HNM by myself LOL I thought that was a given. Haha what I meant was I ran them myself and invited and spoke to people individually myself to get things going. I didn't wait for someone else to take charge and lead, I enjoy doing that myself :) I understand what you are saying though Arcell! Well said :)
I was responding to Jynx also lol who said
That was about how people were complaining there was nothing to do because everything had to be done in groups. That I understand. But yeah in FFXI to progress you did need a group...although for myself and others I don't think it was that tough to make one :) I always enjoyed that aspect of the game...if I wanted to play solo I could just play Monster Hunter or Demon Souls...or even Elder Scrolls. Its like an offline MMORPG...in a way.Quote:
You still have yet to tell me that a player could find himself twidling his thumbs because there was no one online, the real crux of this debate.
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10-22-2012, 08:58 AMBabydollOkay...sorry that being self sufficient is an elitist...also I am SO glad that you can judge me based on a few posts I have made on an online forum. Shows good character! Truly. You have no idea how kind I am to my friends, how much I love helping and meeting new people..and how mostly everyone on my server knew me as the person who would sit around..wait for shouts and go help people. Apparently I am a hardcore end game snob.Quote:
Originally Posted by Xmbei
Judging that I have 0 king gear also...I gave it all to my LS members...yup what an elitist sob I am! I passed all the Dalms to other Summoners, gave away all the Ebodies, the Manteels, the Jorm Poles..Gaiters...TO EVERYONE BUT MYSELF. Also add in that I did not get ONE item from the time I ran HNMLS....LOL you know me so, so well my dear.
I guess because I enjoyed playing FFXI with my boyfriend and duoing/soloing things because how I am sick (I shouldn't be posting this but whatever, since you know me so well you should know this as well) back then with my heart condition...I would solo because I did not want to have to go AFK every 10 minutes and bother people in the EXP PT or while camping NM. Sorry I did not feel compelled to post my entire medical history on here, I did not realize that if I did not share every last personal detail that I would be labeled in such a poor manner.
I suppose I should tell my boyfriend go f himself and play alone or to get over it if we don't have hours on end to sit and play with others so we choose to solo.
Please..by all means, continue to tell me more about myself. I have never in all my internet years come across such a cruel and judgmental person. Really, this is worse then the FFXIAH.com jealous girls I had to put up with. :( -
10-22-2012, 09:01 AMXmbeiWay to not read it all -.- I said in the last paragraph that you might be a kind soul. lol but still my point stands for most of the majority of people I had experience withQuote:
Originally Posted by Babydoll
Edit: P.S. because I am in a rush out the door to get to school forgot to add this. I am sorry to offend you so greatly, and for your health problems. It was just compounded with Elexia and Jynx statements and just past history on FFXI that that quote and the continuation of stating "(we) did it all ourself" falred it off... The fact that I tried to get things done myself but no one would help me still is the biggest regret for me in FFXI before I quit. Again I am sorry, it might of started out targeting you but in general it was a blanket statement.... I just want a better community that will help each other. Not one that excludeds others because of players teiring content to a scale that some never get to do it.