Just discontinued subscription due to Wuk and increased wokeness across SE corp.

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Originally Posted by TKOtheKDR

The concept of "woke" is also most likely why an entire expansion was centered around such an unlikable character, and why, (at least for English), the voice actor was chosen to play Wuk Lamat despite lacking the required talent; "diversity" over meritocracy. (Even the character design of Wuk Lamat shows that some thought was put into ticking "diversity" boxes, such as character model, weapon poses, upper body clothing somewhere between a sports bra and a chest binder, as well as the character concept itself--a quasi-androgynous masculinized female (?) Mary Sue.) "Wokeism" is also certainly why, be it in these forums or anywhere else in the real world, straight-white-male-Caucasians, those resembling that category, or those who believe that diversity is the indirect effect of a population's constituency--not an overt goal used to subvert or oppress the native population, are not permitted to criticize those within the panoply of the critical race theory hierarchy without being baselessly accused of some type of discrimination.

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I don't think it is really wokeness as far as the MSQ focusing on Wuk. I think perhaps they wanted to highlight the new race that was one of the selling points of the expansion so put a Female Hrothgar as the lead of the NPCs.

The poor writing though is responsible for the Mary Sue many of us did not enjoy. But we've had Mary Sues long before "wokeness" was even a thing and I think it's just bad writing.

As far as how Female Hrothgars are portrayed, maybe it is for diversity and to make choosing to play one a more meaningful decision. We have lots of cutesy girls and I think people who wanted female hrothgar as playable expected them to be more fierce and warrior-like given how the men are portrayed.

The English casting is another issue though, so I do question how Sena got through the casting process and that they could not have found someone with the emotional range for the role like JP and German.

I don't get the argument that focusing on a female lead automatically makes a storyline woke.

Are people forgetting that the literal main character, the never losing hero Warrior of Light, can be a woman?

Is the WoL woke?! I don't get it

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Originally Posted by SlickPaws

No, I've been trying to point out to you that you're completely ignoring that old adage about "never judge a book by its cover" and unironically posted a comment effectively saying: "This guy used the term woke as a criticism, and therefore is a bigot." It's been said many times in this thread that the ones who are claiming the most empathy, care and love for their fellow man are also the ones throwing labels, spewing the most toxic vitriol and actively bullying other members of the FFXIV community along the grounds of political opinion. Every time the hypocrisy is pointed out, we get "muh PaRaDoX oF tOlErAnCe" as if having a name for your dehumanising behaviour somehow excuses it. This is why the pushback against activists is so hard amongst the gaming community... We don't want your nonsense here, we just want to play video games and escape from the monotonous existence of life, but you continually don't allow us to do that by forcing real-world political issues into the forefront of these games...

[Quote abbreviated due to character count.]

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This reminds me of a webcomic that I can't exactly remember, and whose search terms have probably scrubbed it from the internet. It's a multi-panel time lapse that shows:

1. Males create niche hobby focused on something entirely based on their particular interests.
2. Females decry hobbyists as sexist and preventing them from engaging in the hobby.
3. Males state that females were never excluded, just that the interest never appealed to them.
4. Females are now engaged in the hobby, but start to police the tone and content of the hobby because they are "uncomfortable".
5. Males are ultimately kicked out of the hobby they started, bereft of the resources they poured into it, and start a new hobby.
6. [A repeat of panel 1.]

It's supposed to be a fantasy world. Can't we just crawl dungeons, kill bosses, and get treasure without someone shoving "social justice" (AKA cultural Marxism) in our faces?

BTW-Cultural Marxism is not antisemitic, despite what Wikipedia says. Anecdotally, I first heard the term from a Jewish person. Cultural Marxism is a revolutionary leftist idea that traditional culture is the source of oppression in the modern world. Cultural Marxism is often linked to an insistence upon political correctness, multiculturalism, and perpetual attacks on the foundations of culture: the nuclear family, marriage, patriotism, traditional morality, law and order, etc. Cultural Marxists are assumed to be committed to establishing economic Marxism, in which case their cultural attacks are a necessary preparation for their ultimate goal. Cultural Marxism can be seen through the degradation of Russian/Soviet culture as the Soviet Union evolved under Lenin and Stalin.

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Originally Posted by TKOtheKDR

This reminds me of a webcomic that I can't exactly remember, and whose search terms have probably scrubbed it from the internet. It's a multi-panel time lapse that shows:

1. Males create niche hobby focused on something entirely based on their particular interests.
2. Females decry hobbyists as sexist and preventing them from engaging in the hobby.
3. Males state that females were never excluded, just that the interest never appealed to them.
4. Females are now engaged in the hobby, but start to police the tone and content of the hobby because they are "uncomfortable".
5. Males are ultimately kicked out of the hobby they started, bereft of the resources they poured into it, and start a new hobby.
6. [A repeat of panel 1.]

It's supposed to be a fantasy world. Can't we just crawl dungeons, kill bosses, and get treasure without someone shoving "social justice" (AKA cultural Marxism) in our faces?

BTW-Cultural Marxism is not antisemitic, despite what Wikipedia says. Anecdotally, I first heard the term from a Jewish person. Cultural Marxism is a revolutionary leftist idea that traditional culture is the source of oppression in the modern world. Cultural Marxism is often linked to an insistence upon political correctness, multiculturalism, and perpetual attacks on the foundations of culture: the nuclear family, marriage, patriotism, traditional morality, law and order, etc. Cultural Marxists are assumed to be committed to establishing economic Marxism, in which case their cultural attacks are a necessary preparation for their ultimate goal. Cultural Marxism can be seen through the degradation of Russian/Soviet culture as the Soviet Union evolved under Lenin and Stalin.

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What confuses me is that MMOs always had a strong female population. Most of my good friends in MMOs since EQ in 1999 were women. I was involved in Roleplaying though - but even when I veered towards high-end raiding we had multiple women.

When I was in ESO, most of my guild was Women. I founded the guild but a lot of women liked the RP concept and sometimes our guild meetings were 90% women.

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Originally Posted by TKOtheKDR

*snip*

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While I appreciate the logic, I don't think that's what's happened here. MMOs have always been accepting of anyone, and that's probably been to our detriment because it has allowed people from both extremes to creep in and begin infecting communities with extremist rhetoric. Gamers never cared about any of this before, and we ignored it out of tolerance and a love of gaming until the point it has become overbearing - and I will say that much of it is coming from one direction. The vast majority of people subbed to this game right now most likely just looking to play something cool and flashy for a few hours and have some fun with their friends and that's the voice that I'm currently attempting to speak for... We just want to be left alone to play our video games. Not everything has to be politicised, it is okay to want to escape from it all even if it's just for a couple of hours. This is a big reason that there's a resurgence in retro gaming, because games were just better in the past when there weren't overt political themes transplanted directly from real life being shoved down your throat.

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Originally Posted by SlickPaws

The kind of people who say this are the kind of people who first took the term, popularised it, used it to death and now complain about its usage when criticised for doing things that once upon a time, you'd have called "woke" unironically. The term originated in American Black culture and referred to someone being racially aware, "awake" to the systemic racial problems... And then it was appropriated by extreme left activists and extended to any sort of awareness of oppression. Being "woke" used to be a good thing for them, it used to be a badge to signal to each other that you're both on the same wavelength. The entire reason the opposition from the centre and from the right uses the term is because the left popularised it, and now you're trying to disavow the term as some right-wing dogwhistle. This is the bed that the left-wing activists made for themselves, and now they don't want to sleep in it.

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yeah. Pretty sure "woke" used to be a badge of honor not so long ago. To see how it turned out to be negative in such a short time, no thanks to people under the "woke" banner I guess.

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Originally Posted by Pepperblue

I don't get the argument that focusing on a female lead automatically makes a storyline woke.

Are people forgetting that the literal main character, the never losing hero Warrior of Light, can be a woman?

Is the WoL woke?! I don't get it

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Being a female has nothing to do with dislike of a main character or anything else in this thread. It's the way that it was carried out in DT. Wuk Lamat was written horribly and is incredibly annoying. There is no character development, and the character succeeds because "she was perfect and powerful all along"--just like Rey from Star Wars and the fictional abomination that is Michael Burnham from Star Trek. Add the friction and weighty real-world biases of the (arguably) "social justice"/"diversity" inspired character design and voice actor casting, and you have a perfect storm of a horrible character and expansion, (as it was based around that character). Again, sex has nothing to do with the dislike of a FF main character--give us a Terra, give us a Quistis, give us a Rikku--damn, even give us a Vanille and we'll be happy.

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Originally Posted by TKOtheKDR

Again, sex has nothing to do with the dislike of a FF main character--give us a Terra, give us a Quistis, give us a Rikku--damn, even give us a Vanille and we'll be happy.

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Man, it hurts me a little bit that you didn't mention Rinoa. :(

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Originally Posted by TKOtheKDR

give us a Terra,

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Still wish I had $14,000 lying around for this

https://cdn-prod.scalefast.com/publi...18_1920_KR.jpg

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Originally Posted by TKOtheKDR

Being a female has nothing to do with dislike of a main character or anything else in this thread. It's the way that it was carried out in DT. Wuk Lamat was written horribly and is incredibly annoying. There is no character development, and the character succeeds because "she was perfect and powerful all along"--just like Rey from Star Wars and the fictional abomination that is Michael Burnham from Star Trek. Add the friction and weighty real-world biases of the (arguably) "social justice"/"diversity" inspired character design and voice actor casting, and you have a perfect storm of a horrible character and expansion, (as it was based around that character). Again, sex has nothing to do with the dislike of a FF main character--give us a Terra, give us a Quistis, give us a Rikku--damn, even give us a Vanille and we'll be happy.

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But isn't the Warrior of Light the literal "chosen one", perfect and powerful from the beginning? Sure, we lose here and there, but in the end the WoL always saves everyone's asses.

If I made the WoL a strong female Roegadyn, how is that not woke by your definition?

Would you be this upset if Wuk Lamat was a dude?

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Originally Posted by LuciferMournstar

How is more therapy going to help? Have me talk to a therapist, while what is going on continues to happen? This is personal, but not on a one-on-one. I do not see my kindness and acceptance as weakness. Though you have to understand, some do. I'm not talking about those who belittled me as "weak and pathetic", (even though those people are just as vile), i'm talking about those who would take my tolerance and acceptance for granted. Those who would exploit it for personal gain. Do you really think there are not smaller vocal groups of LGBTQ++ and such that would love to have privileges and be openly bigoted because it's acceptable?

You want me to go to a therapist, but what good is that going to do? Make it so I feel better about my tolerance and acceptance being taken for granted when it does happen? Make me accept that there are a vocal minority that not already has powerful influence, but are getting stronger? Make me feel like it's OK that when I do speak out about injustices toward me or straight white males in general, i'm to be admonished? Make me feel it's OK when everything I've gone through and worked for is reduced to "Straight White Male Privilege", and I don't deserve anything? That my feelings and who I am as a human being doesn't mean a damn thing to them? That I am "lesser" because of it?

These types of people do exist, and they aren't even trying to hide it. All because they have a "virtuous shield" to hide behind, and because people like me won't say anything out for fear of being vilified.

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I mean, the amount of rage you have towards the issue is unhealthy, and in your own words it came from a bad experience you had with an LGBT person. Therapists help with anger issues. I'm an LGBT woman that was physically beaten by a straight guy to the point of being hospitalized but I was never like "well, all straight guys are bad" because I had one bad thing happen to me. A lot of my friends are straight guys, why would I hate them because one guy hurt me? Therapy helped me deal with my pain and fear in a healthy way. Therapy would be helpful for you too.

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Originally Posted by Pepperblue

But isn't the Warrior of Light the literal "chosen one", perfect and powerful from the beginning? Sure, we lose here and there, but in the end the WoL always saves everyone's asses.

If I made the WoL a strong female Roegadyn, how is that not woke by your definition?

Would you be this upset if Wuk Lamat was a dude?

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I don't think creating your own character, and being forced to interact with a Mary Sue NPC are the same thing. (Removing the issue of whether I find Wuk to be "woke" or not, which I don't.)

I'd have found Wuk just as annoying if the character was male, since I view this as a writing issue, and would have also the same critiques if he was poorly acted.

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Originally Posted by Pepperblue

But isn't the Warrior of Light the literal "chosen one", perfect and powerful from the beginning? Sure, we lose here and there, but in the end the WoL always saves everyone's asses.

If I made the WoL a strong female Roegadyn, how is that not woke by your definition?

Would you be this upset if Wuk Lamat was a dude?

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There's a reason the WoL is the "Chosen one", and it's shown in the very beginning. We're empowered by the Mothercrystal. As are any other characters with the Echo. It's not just us. And it's explained several times through Middy, the Ascians, that this is weakening her to do so. It's why they created even more WoLs on the first. This is also why our blessing is taken away from us until we earn it back. There is a cost to using our power too much.

Wuk doesn't have that. She literally falls upward. She fails, and then suddenly, within the span of a few quests, is fifty times more powerful. There was no training, there was no earning, there wasn't even an explanation. THAT is a Mary Sue.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

I don't think creating your own character, and being forced to interact with a Mary Sue NPC are the same thing. (Removing the issue of whether I find Wuk to be "woke" or not, which I don't.)

I'd have found Wuk just as annoying if the character was male, since I view this as a writing issue, and would have also the same critiques if he was poorly acted.

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I have literally never seen posts complaining about a male character being perceived as having no flaws.

Just call bad acting or bad writing what it is, there's nothing woke or political about the writers simply not doing a good enough job, as the OP seems to imply

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Originally Posted by Isala

There's a reason the WoL is the "Chosen one", and it's shown in the very beginning. We're empowered by the Mothercrystal. As are any other characters with the Echo. It's not just us. And it's explained several times through Middy, the Ascians, that this is weakening her to do so. It's why they created even more WoLs on the first. This is also why our blessing is taken away from us until we earn it back. There is a cost to using our power too much.

Wuk doesn't have that. She literally falls upward. She fails, and then suddenly, within the span of a few quests, is fifty times more powerful. There was no training, there was no earning, there wasn't even an explanation. THAT is a Mary Sue.

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I think the WoL is a Mary Sue also. Being special even with a lore reason still makes us Special. We also by the end of the story have the densest soul in the world.

We also excel at anything and everything, often surpassing people who spent their entire lifetimes mastering a combat style/craft in short periods of time.

I'm fine with this though since we are the playable character, so I don't mind being this powerful presence and enjoying a high status in the world.

A new NPC pushing us out of the spotlight as the player and getting immense completely unearned power is another issue that I find less tolerable.

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Originally Posted by Isala

There's a reason the WoL is the "Chosen one", and it's shown in the very beginning. We're empowered by the Mothercrystal. As are any other characters with the Echo. It's not just us. And it's explained several times through Middy, the Ascians, that this is weakening her to do so. It's why they created even more WoLs on the first. This is also why our blessing is taken away from us until we earn it back. There is a cost to using our power too much.

Wuk doesn't have that. She literally falls upward. She fails, and then suddenly, within the span of a few quests, is fifty times more powerful. There was no training, there was no earning, there wasn't even an explanation. THAT is a Mary Sue.

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I'm pretty sure the only reason Lamat succeeded at all is because the mothercrystal Mary Sue that is the Warrior of Light carried the shit out of her. If we weren't there she would have straight up lost almost immediately.

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Originally Posted by Pepperblue

But isn't the Warrior of Light the literal "chosen one", perfect and powerful from the beginning? Sure, we lose here and there, but in the end the WoL always saves everyone's asses.

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The WoL is a player character and silent protagonist. The progression and "character" growth they go through is the entirety of our playthrough--grinding mobs and killing bosses are the progression that Wuk never endures.

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Originally Posted by Pepperblue

If I made the WoL a strong female Roegadyn, how is that not woke by your definition?

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There are strong female Roegadyn in the FF universe, and they are more hardy and stoic than females in other races--just look at Merlwyb. They're basically written as tall Tolkienesque dwarves, only with sexual dimorphism and without an obsession for mining and living in caves. Again, it's the fact that Wuk was written to be the "strong and powerful leader" without having to undergo any significant sacrifice or character development; she Didn't Earn It.

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Originally Posted by Pepperblue

Would you be this upset if Wuk Lamat was a dude?

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Yes. A bad character is a bad character. However, the choices made with the character design and voice actor do compound the errors.

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Originally Posted by TKOtheKDR

The WoL is a player character and silent protagonist. The progression and "character" growth they go through is the entirety of our playthrough--grinding mobs and killing bosses are the progression that Wuk never endures.



There are strong female Roegadyn in the FF universe, and they are more hardy and stoic than females in other races--just look at Merlwyb. They're basically written as tall Tolkienesque dwarves, only with sexual dimorphism and without an obsession for mining and living in caves. Again, it's the fact that Wuk was written to be the "strong and powerful leader" without having to undergo any significant sacrifice or character development; she Didn't Earn It.



Yes. A bad character is a bad character. However, the choices made with the character design and voice actor do compound the errors.

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Can't a character simply be bad without being labeled woke or political? Can't writers simply just fail without ppl blaming something else for it?

It's comical to me that people are confusing a player character with a Mary Sue. By definition, the player character is YOU, the person who paid for the game, subscription, and sits at a computer day after day bashing the keyboard. By that definition, time spent playing is the character development, which amounts to potentially hundreds of hours. Engaging in such a time-consuming activity is the antithesis of a Mary Sue.

A Mary Sue on the other hand, is a type of character who is depicted as unrealistically lacking in flaws or weaknesses. That term originated from 70's Star Trek fan fiction.

The discussion confusing a player character with a Mary Sue is either one made in ignorance, or, in my opinion, is to distract that Wuk was written as such and to denigrate the term so it has no effective meaning--such as the argument has gone regarding the concept of "woke".

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Originally Posted by Pepperblue

I have literally never seen posts complaining about a male character being perceived as having no flaws.

Just call bad acting or bad writing what it is, there's nothing woke or political about the writers simply not doing a good enough job, as the OP seems to imply

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Can you think of any male character that completely drowned out the WoL for an entire expansion, and also had no meaningful flaws?

I've seen people dislike a lot of male characters, but yes for reasons other than being flawless. I'm just wondering if you have examples of characters thus far who qualify for the same critique.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

I think the WoL is a Mary Sue also. Being special even with a lore reason still makes us Special. We also by the end of the story have the densest soul in the world.

We also excel at anything and everything, often surpassing people who spent their entire lifetimes mastering a combat style/craft in short periods of time.

I'm fine with this though since we are the playable character, so I don't mind being this powerful presence and enjoying a high status in the world.

A new NPC pushing us out of the spotlight as the player and getting immense completely unearned power is another issue that I find less tolerable.

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We're not even "special", though, by the rules of the game. We're just one of a thousand WoLs who have done great things across the history of the Shards. We just happen to have the advantage of being one of the Source's WoLs. Ardbert and his crew won so hard they actually ended up tipping the balance of their shard. It took a world ending cataclysm to "defeat" them, and even then, they crossed the barrier between shards to continue their fight.

Even Fordola, with her fake Echo, does what we do. They used her as a weapon to suppress Primal uprisings.

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Originally Posted by Pepperblue

Can't a character simply be bad without being labeled woke or political? Can't writers simply just fail without ppl blaming something else for it?

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This sounds like you're saying, "You're correct, but it hurts my feelings and goes against my worldview that you're correct. Can't we just agree that you're not correct?"

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Originally Posted by angienessyo

I mean, the amount of rage you have towards the issue is unhealthy, and in your own words it came from a bad experience you had with an LGBT person. Therapists help with anger issues. I'm an LGBT woman that was physically beaten by a straight guy to the point of being hospitalized but I was never like "well, all straight guys are bad" because I had one bad thing happen to me. A lot of my friends are straight guys, why would I hate them because one guy hurt me? Therapy helped me deal with my pain and fear in a healthy way. Therapy would be helpful for you too.

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Seconding this, therapy is not about "feeling better about yourself", it's about dealing with trauma and the consequences of them. It's not a jab against you to say that what you're showing us is not healthy, I think most people reading you in this thread get genuinly concerned (and I said most, not all). I'm not gonna question the veracity of your tale, because at this point you'd be a tremendously awful person if that was a lie. And there's too much to discuss for it to be done in a forum thread with complete randos. So do get in contact with a new therapist when you can, avoid those that do psycho-analysis because most of that is worthless, and go with one that does cognitive-behavioral therapy or eye movement desensibilisation and reprocessing therapy. I went through it and I can assure you it helped, a lot.
(And, still not a jab, but log off those forums, because they're really a cesspool of toxicity, and it's bad for everyone involved).

As for the rest, people, OP is clearly a far-right troll spouting bullshit to spread his far-right ideology, stop engaging with him, block him and let this thread die. It's a waste of time and energy.

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Originally Posted by Isala

We're not even "special", though, by the rules of the game. We're just one of a thousand WoLs who have done great things across the history of the Shards. We just happen to have the advantage of being one of the Source's WoLs. Ardbert and his crew won so hard they actually ended up tipping the balance of their shard. It took a world ending cataclysm to "defeat" them, and even then, they crossed the barrier between shards to continue their fight.

Even Fordola, with her fake Echo, does what we do. They used her as a weapon to suppress Primal uprisings.

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But we are special. Everyone else with the Echo were not portrayed as also immensely powerful in combat. Minphilia couldn't fight at all, and neither could Krile until recently. We were usually called in as "the one and only" to solve all kinds of the universe's problems. Even among combatants, neither Fordola nor Ardbert ultimately could withstand a battle against the WoL.

We have so many Mary Sue moments in this game, it's hard to believe they go unnoticed by some. We are just uniquely powerful, competent, and our mere presensce often inspires NPCs around us from a mere one-liner dialouge option. We have very few flaws as a character and more often than not our involvement results in victory or changes in heart from everyone around us.

As to TK, a player character can absolutely be written as a Mary Sue. Being playable doesn't change how a character is written, especially in a mostly linear story. It is more acceptable though since yes, we are paying customers and this is a video game. If our characters were incompetent it would fail as a product.

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Originally Posted by TKOtheKDR

This sounds like you're saying, "You're correct, but it hurts my feelings and goes against my worldview that you're correct. Can't we just agree that you're not correct?"

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You're "correct" in the sense that clearly the writers failed at writing a compelling character, you're incorrect in trying to make it into a "political woke issue" out of nowhere just because it's a female character that was bad this time around

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

Can you think of any male character that completely drowned out the WoL for an entire expansion, and also had no meaningful flaws?

I've seen people dislike a lot of male characters, but yes for reasons other than being flawless. I'm just wondering if you have examples of characters thus far who qualify for the same critique.

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I disagree that she has no flaws, because if the WoL weren't there, Lamat's dumb ass would have literally failed the first test that was put before her. She was clearly incompetent, but we carried her through it anyway.

Y'all, it's 46 pages of this bait now. Let them "unsub" and move on lmao

Kinda wild that this thread is still up

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Originally Posted by LilyPendragon

Kinda wild that this thread is still up

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Mods don't exist or care

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Originally Posted by angienessyo

I mean, the amount of rage you have towards the issue is unhealthy, and in your own words it came from a bad experience you had with an LGBT person. Therapists help with anger issues. I'm an LGBT woman that was physically beaten by a straight guy to the point of being hospitalized but I was never like "well, all straight guys are bad" because I had one bad thing happen to me. A lot of my friends are straight guys, why would I hate them because one guy hurt me? Therapy helped me deal with my pain and fear in a healthy way. Therapy would be helpful for you too.

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I'm sorry you went through that, sincerely. Though you're misunderstanding me. My rage is not with "all LGBTQ++ and others", just the ones who want to vilify and condone everything such as : Hate speech, forced silence on any and all criticism under penalty of loss, and even violence. Simply because I am a straight white male. Would you not have rage toward a group that said "All LBGT women deserve to be beaten"? Would you not speak out against that if they suddenly started to spread their message of hatred, and the people agreed with them? Talking to a therapist isn't going to stop them from doing that. It isn't going to stop them from trying to normalize it in society.

I deal with my pain and fear everyday. I do not automatically assume anyone regardless of skin color / sexual orientation / gender / or sex intends ill will toward me unless proven otherwise. However the ones in question have openly admitted they intend just that. There comes a point in life where you can't just go to a therapist to find a safe bubble to cocoon yourself and be comforted. I can not do that, because I know the moment I walk out of that session, the ones who hate me are still there. Still being cheered on by the public, being told they are the "virtuous ones", and that I deserve it.

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Originally Posted by ZephyrMenodora

But we are special. Everyone else with the Echo were not portrayed as also immensely powerful in combat. Minphilia couldn't fight at all, and neither could Krile until recently. We were usually called in as "the one and only" to solve all kinds of the universe's problems. Even among combatants, neither Fordola nor Ardbert ultimately could withstand a battle against the WoL.

We have so many Mary Sue moments in this game, it's hard to believe they go unnoticed by some. We are just uniquely powerful, competent, and our mere presensce often inspires NPCs around us from a mere one-liner dialouge option. We have very few flaws as a character and more often than not our involvement results in victory or changes in heart from everyone around us.

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We're just a combat and fetch specialist, nothing wrong with that, we're not called upon to look at the future or navigate politics the way Krile and Minphilia do. Fordola may be an inferior combatant to us, sure, but as I recall she was unbeaten until we arrived did put up a fight against us. Ardbert and co would have beaten us if not for Urianger's betrayal. And you conveniently leave out all the times Zenos canonically wiped the floor with us. The WoL might one day take up strategy and may even be good at it but we're not there yet, that's still Alphinaud's purview.

Similarly there's nothing wrong with our presence inspiring NPCs, renowned individuals have that effect, you need only look through history to see that. A rumour of a successful tactician arriving or the flag of an elite unit showing up can turn entire battlefields, sometimes without the actual person or unit in question even being there. I'd bet if a Garlean force was losing badly and Gaius showed up whether alone or with reinforcements, they would be inspired to fight harder too.

Move along, they "unsubbed" remember?

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Originally Posted by Brignadalee

Move along, they "unsubbed" remember?

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The fire doesn't go out because the first branch or even tree it started on ceases to exist, it finds new fuel and grows until it runs out of fuel or air or an outside force intervenes and puts it out.

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

We're just a combat and fetch specialist, nothing wrong with that, we're not called upon to look at the future or navigate politics the way Krile and Minphilia do. Fordola may be an inferior combatant to us, sure, but as I recall she was unbeaten until we arrived did put up a fight against us. Ardbert and co would have beaten us if not for Urianger's betrayal. And you conveniently leave out all the times Zenos canonically wiped the floor with us. The WoL might one day take up strategy and may even be good at it but we're not there yet, that's still Alphinaud's purview.

Similarly there's nothing wrong with our presence inspiring NPCs, renowned individuals have that effect, you need only look through history to see that. A rumour of a successful tactician arriving or the flag of an elite unit showing up can turn entire battlefields, sometimes without the actual person or unit in question even being there. I'd bet if a Garlean force was losing badly and Gaius showed up whether alone or with reinforcements, they would be inspired to fight harder too.

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Look at it this way. The WoL is so absurd, and such a Mary Sue, that no RP guild in existence would let a member Roleplay as this character. It's pretty much an unwritten rule that no one would have fun in RP dealing with such a character, so powerful are they, so universally popular and beloved, BFFs with every nation's rulers in existence, that it would be a nuisance RPing around this character.

The MSQ alone would propel the WoL to Mary Sue status. As early as "only you can face the Primals without getting tempered!" to being the sole person standing in EW. (DT is another story, with the new WoL - Wuk of Lamat - randomly falling into dimensional rifts and doing more damage than an entire party of WoLs despite only appearing late in the fight. But whatever.)

The WoL becomes more and more absurd if they are an omni-leveller like I am. You literally are the most competent/powerful practitioner of every art known to man, usually surpassing your master by the end despite only just starting your training. A lot of times you are one of the only people alive with access to the art. It's crazy. Even the most powerful characters in XIV are limited to a couple jobs, maybe 3 at most for the most powerful NPCs. Even those are weaker than we are.

The number of times I've been called the Savior of something or the sole impetus behind success is comical at this point. In not just the MSQ, but every Job/Role quest.

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

The fire doesn't go out because the first branch or even tree it started on ceases to exist, it finds new fuel and grows until it runs out of fuel or air or an outside force intervenes and puts it out.

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*Stormtrooper impression*
M o V e A l O n G

It took you a month to decide this triggered you enough to unsub? Lol, okay.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

I appreciate the genuine answer. I will focus only on Example A because I don't want to derail this too much with the other examples. One could make the argument that it is hard not to make it about transgender when companies are often implementing DEI hiring practices and for someone who believed that, this would appear to be one such case since it does not make sense why the VA quality is markedly lower than other recent major characters. It is difficult to voice things like this without offending the other side and making them immediately think you are a bigot. What if the reason this trans VA was hired by the company really was because she was trans so they were given prefential treatment in the VA casting role for the MC of Dawntrail? How does one voice such a concern without appearing as a bigot for voicing that view? Whether you think this view makes them bigoted or not, there are plenty of people who would automatically write that person off as a bigot.

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A lot of people misunderstand DEI. You seem to be one of them.

We have a society. Let's say that 2% of people are *insert_minority_here*.
Then logically speaking, any company, institution, and etc will, in an equal world, sorta come close to a 2% representation of that minority as well. But, this is not often the case.
DEI just aims to make people aware of that ratio.

It's not a perfect system. You can criticize it. But usually the people criticizing it don't criticize the execution of it, they just say "it's bad, it needs to go away", meaning they disagree with the concept entirely and then do a little handwave as if it explains all the bad things that corporations do.
Disagreement with the concept entirely is often rooted in bigotry. Because if you believe in equality and equity like a decent human being should, DEI is just... nothing to be worried about.

More arguments can be along the lines of "they intentionally hire worse people for the job just to meet DEI requirements". Again, such an argument is often rooted in an assumption that the minority hire was not the best option available. That all the hire could do was meet some sort of DEI quota for representation. But that is a WILD guess, and it shows some unspoken judgement on the decision. Because you would not be blaming DEI or some such for the bad performance of the hire, if the bad hire wasn't a minority. You can just point out "that was a mistake" without ever mentioning DEI or the hire's minority status. But the simple fact that someone DOES do that, is just a dead giveaway what they think.
Correct implementation of DEI means that, given all things are equal, and two people apply to the same job with the same qualifications and the same experience, but one of them is a minority. Then DEI guidelines might tip the scales and give a benefit to someone part of a minority group IF it leads to better representation of that minority within the corporation. But we do not know who else was approached to be the voice of Wuk Lamat, for example. So to claim the 'bad performance' is because of "DEI preferable treatment", is a logical leap that can be easily interpreted as bigotry against a minority.

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Originally Posted by Bopsheezi

Mods don't exist or care

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Small correction : they only exist in JP. But yes it amounts to no care about any region other than JP.

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Originally Posted by Brignadalee

Y'all, it's 46 pages of this bait now. Let them "unsub" and move on lmao

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Originally Posted by LilyPendragon

Kinda wild that this thread is still up

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Originally Posted by Bopsheezi

Mods don't exist or care

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Originally Posted by Brignadalee

Move along, they "unsubbed" remember?

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Originally Posted by Brignadalee

*Stormtrooper impression*
M o V e A l O n G

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Every time someone posts a comment like "I can't believe this is still up!" you're actually bringing the thread back to the front page, making it seem more active than it is. If you want the thread to fade away, it's better to avoid commenting altogether. Your remarks contribute less to the discussion than the off-topic posts do.

I'm going to post monkey pictures because who cares.

https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.96348e26...pid=ImgRaw&r=0
"What did you just say to me?"