Character Creation Has A Race Problem

What on earth happened again with this thread, come on guys....I thought we fixed some issues by now.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Well, given that I'm female, I actually do because the bias is often forced into my face on a daily basis. Believe me, it's not something I enjoy seeing.



Whatever you say.

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With comments like that it just comes off as you feel discrimination is race and gender based. Granted at the very least going based off how you defined discrimination before. I am all for extra customization options, but no need to create a problem that does not exist.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

What on earth happened again with this thread, come on guys....I thought we fixed some issues by now.

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Nah, this thread was boinked from the beginning, there really wasn't anything TO fix.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

You have misunderstood me. I'm not saying FFXIV's afterlife has borrowed from Christianity, but in fact the opposite. The game is referencing it without any context. It's IRL iconography in-game which supposedly has "no place" there. You're also glossing over the direct mention of Taoism.

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Saying the opposite would be saying that Christianity borrowed from FFXIV’s afterlife. Considering that makes zero sense...

Referencing the afterlife in any form of media is referencing an archetype. As are all the other references you have tossed out (good versus evil; light versus dark; angels and demons, and devils and gods). Last I checked, there wasn’t a ban on borrowing common archetypes and using them in any form of media. That doesn’t make anything exclusive either.

All I was doing was pointing out how misinformed it is on your part to assume that all of the above described are inherent to Christianity. They’re so commonly found in other religions and cultures that they have evolved into literary archetypes.

By all means, show me proof how the Taoist glamour is representative of Taoism. If anything, it’s representative of a type of Chinese dress; not of the religion.

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The halo depicted is in line with the Western image of angels derived from Christianity. The one Buddha is often depicted with is quite different.

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They’re still all classified as halos. Christianity doesn’t have an exclusive claim on halos, just like it doesn’t have an exclusive claim on angels and demons; and the ones commonly found behind Jesus aren’t at all like the one depicted in the Angelic Attire glamour.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

What on earth happened again with this thread, come on guys....I thought we fixed some issues by now.

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It was fine for at least a little while until someone else came up and started crying about discrimination...

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Western media is consumed on a global scale. 1 in 5 people in the US are non-white. Up to half the population of major cities like London and New York are non-white, and in some cases white is no longer even the majority. Multi-culturalism is growing rapidly. "But there's more white people" is an incredibly old and weak excuse used to cover the heavy bias towards white people that still exists, despite there being no shortage of other races in the industry or in the audience.

No, it's not a case of apathy "because everything is racist/ sexist" lol. It's because while people are fine saying that slurs and harassment are wrong, they don't like having it pointed out to them that they have benefited from a system that excludes or discriminates against other ethnicities and become incredibly defensive. This thread is a perfect example.

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Have you glanced at any statistics lately? New York's white demographic is comprised of 70% while London is 60%. That remains a significant majority. Even by your own admission, 20% is a distinct minority, which only adds credence to my argument. When you have such enormous discrepancies like this, you will always get a majority leaning. Just because Western media is consumed on a global scale does not mean there will be equal representation across the board. It's statistically impossible without artificially influence because they simply have a smaller pool to pull from. Unfortunately, multi-culturalism isn't growing, at least not in North America, especially when we have nonsense like "cultural appropriation" because a sixteen year old American girl wore a Chinese dress to her prom.

Or people recognize it's not some oppressive boogyman holding them back. Stop blaming racism, sexism or whatever else for all your (generalizing) problems. This thread is an example of the bias SJW mentality trying to blame everything and everyone else. It couldn't possibly be SE simply having a poor character creation. No, no. They're unintentionally racist. What utter nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

What on earth happened again with this thread, come on guys....I thought we fixed some issues by now.

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This thread was never salvageable.Now it's just someone else captaining this sinking ship.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

tangent extraordinaire

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The opposite is it hasn't borrowed from it at all. There is no link or connection made. It's a lone IRL reference with no FFXIV connection stuck in the middle of the game.

That particular depiction of an angel and devil is derived from Christianity. I'd thought that a given, but pedantry is the theme today apparently.

Are you joking? Taoism is the name of the religion. It is called a Taoist shirt, even fashioned in a similar style to Taoism robes worn in real life. It's not a Hingan shirt. It's not a Doman shirt. It's a reference to a real life religion being put directly into the game without regard to "lore", which is, supposedly, bad.

But it's still derived from Western imagery taken from Christianity. That was the image they chose. There's also the matter of the feathery white wings and long robes. It's a Western, Christian-inspired depiction with no relation to the FFXIV canon.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

]This thread was never salvageable.Now it's just someone else captaining this sinking ship.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

]It was fine until someone else came up and started crying about discrimination...

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Originally Posted by Joven

Nah, this thread was boinked from the beginning, there really wasn't anything TO fix.

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I suppose I just had faith and higher hopes that the ship would start to reconstruct it's bow from sitting at the bottom of the Ruby Sea by now.

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Originally Posted by Rokke

I don’t see it as an end all be all as much as a nice touch. When I was a kid playing Pokémon I imagined that my trainer looked like me. After a few games they let me play a female trainer. The more recent games now let me pick a skin tone close to my own. Neither of these were mandatory changes I needed, but they improved the overall experience for me.

I think people get too hung up on buzzwords instead of seeing more options for customization.

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Ironically enough, your Pokemon example is a case of what the OP and other people in this thread are arguing against.

http://i.imgur.com/PfIvOWQ.png

Don't you see they CLEARLY just substituted darker skin on characters with traditionally caucasian features, which is NOT ENOUGH and stands as evidence of the DISCRIMINATION that PoC have to endure every day!

:rolleyes: Is it any wonder people didn't take this thread seriously?

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Originally Posted by Sigma-Astra

I suppose I just had faith and higher hopes that the ship would start to reconstruct it's bow from sitting at the bottom of the Ruby Sea by now.

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The only way that would be possible is if the OP creates a new post about the topic without the clickbait title designed to create outrage.

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Originally Posted by Joven

The only way that would be possible is if the OP creates a new post about the topic without the clickbait title designed to create outrage.

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Or people grow up a bit, ignore the silly little race war that a few people were bickering over, and discuss the topic at hand. However, this being the OF, you're probably correct.

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Originally Posted by Emstidor

Ironically enough, your Pokemon example is a case of what the OP and other people in this thread are arguing against.

http://i.imgur.com/PfIvOWQ.png

Don't you see they CLEARLY just substituted darker skin on characters with traditionally caucasian features, which is NOT ENOUGH and stands as evidence of the DISCRIMINATION that PoC have to endure every day!

:rolleyes: Is it any wonder people didn't take this thread seriously?

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Which part is Caucasian again? The grapefruit sized anime eyes? the spec pen drop tip that represents an entire nose? The completely non existant lips? These are a symbol of a human face. No human on the planet, let alone race of people actually look like this. They are approximations of a human. A caricature of a homosapien. If you were to draw the darker skinned people to include the same ridiculous caricature style features but of black people you would end up with big fat cartoon lips and a wide nose and people would be pointing to the racist drawings of the jim crow era and be outraged. Heck the only 'caucasian' thing about them is the white ones have an option for blue eyes and the darker faces only have darker eyes. Thats the most realistic thing in this whole image lol.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

The opposite is it hasn't borrowed from it at all. There is no link or connection made. It's a lone IRL reference with no FFXIV connection stuck in the middle of the game.

That particular depiction of an angel and devil is derived from Christianity. I'd thought that a given, but pedantry is the theme today apparently.

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Angels having white wings and devils having black wings is still an archetype. As is everything else you said (black versus white isn’t even a Christian concept). I would highly suggest you read up on what archetypes are.

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Are you joking? Taoism is the name of the religion. It is called a Taoist shirt, even fashioned in a similar style to Taoism robes worn in real life. It's not a Hingan shirt. It's not a Doman shirt. It's a reference to a real life religion being put directly into the game without regard to "lore", which is, supposedly, bad.

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Ah, yes, the “Taoist” reference in the Taoist Shirt or Taoist Slops tells me all about living in harmony with the Tao. /s

Using “Taoist” in the description doesn’t make it descritive of a religion. It doesn’t, in any shape or form, talk about the ideology of it. It’s representative of a Chinese style of dress; that says nothing about the actual religion. Again, the Taoist glamour is representative of a Chinese style of dress; not of an actual religion. Closest you can get is saying it represents a part of Chinese culture.

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But it's still derived from Western imagery taken from Christianity. That was the image they chose. There's also the matter of the feathery white wings and long robes. It's a Western, Christian-inspired depiction with no relation to the FFXIV canon.

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I guess we’re just going to ignore all those Western depictions of the halo behind Jesus’ head as a solid circle of light, not a skinny ring above his head... Funny that Buddha has similar halos depicted behind his head...



My point still stands: glamours don’t represent religions. You saying they do is a reach. I gave you way too much credit in my original response to Iscah.

Honestly speaking, and this is a one time only thing because I'm not getting fully involved into this nonsense. But, costumes or clothing in JRPG's, even MMO's based on other religions or cultures is not a new trend, however, that does not nor has it ever meant that the game or lore itself supports those religions or cultures. Sure, we can say that the creators were inspired and drew ideas and inspiration to put into the design, but that doesn't mean that they have to make it canon or even explain why it's in there nor explain why they even thought about it.

Aurica from Ar Tonelico has two Cosmosphere costumes that are clearly based on the angel/devil concepts of Christianity. These are legit things in the game that you will be wearing because they offer different HP, stat values, and bonuses until you get the lvl 8 Cosmosphere costume.

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20091028052119

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20091028052148

This does not mean that the world and lore of Ar Tonelico supports a religion based on Christianity or that the costumes represent said religion, nor does the creator need to explain it. There's no such thing as a legit heaven or hell or legit angels and demons in the world. Most people worship the Sol Ciel's tower administrator, Shurelia, while they fear the mother of all viruses and hater of humans, Mir. There's only three kinds of people in the world: humans, viruses, and Revyateils.....four if you count monsters.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Or people grow up a bit, ignore the silly little race war that a few people were bickering over, and discuss the topic at hand. However, this being the OF, you're probably correct.

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Race IS part of the topic since it's included in the title so people are discussing that. We all agree about more customization options, but not about WHY they should be implemented.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Or people grow up a bit, ignore the silly little race war that a few people were bickering over, and discuss the topic at hand. However, this being the OF, you're probably correct.

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They won't. Proving my earlier point, everyone decided to post in this thread again the moment it became about race war stuff. It's clear that's all anyone wants to talk about. It's definitely pointless now. People don't want to actually talk about the subject.

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Originally Posted by Joven

Race IS part of the topic since it's included in the title so people are discussing that. We all agree about more customization options, but not about WHY they should be implemented.

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Of course race is part of the thread, but the bickering over the nonsense was not needed which is why I made my comment. It is very possible to have a civil conversation regarding sensitive topics, all whilst remaining on topic - even with people with whom you disagree. People should try harder.

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

They won't. Proving my earlier point, everyone decided to post in this thread again the moment it became about race war stuff. It's clear that's all anyone wants to talk about. It's definitely pointless now. People don't want to actually talk about the subject.

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Telling someone glamour doesn’t represent religion =/= race war stuff. Just pointing that out.

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Originally Posted by Skivvy

Of course race is part of the thread, but the bickering over the nonsense was not needed which is why I made my comment. It is very possible to have a civil conversation regarding sensitive topics, all whilst remaining on topic - even with people with whom you disagree. People should try harder.

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In all fairness, it’s difficult to remain cordial with individuals who insinuate that you’re “slow”, or who tell you to “keep up” when you disagree with them.

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

They won't. Proving my earlier point, everyone decided to post in this thread again the moment it became about race war stuff. It's clear that's all anyone wants to talk about. It's definitely pointless now. People don't want to actually talk about the subject.

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Actually, I think we're on religious intent now. Maybe...?

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

snip.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogr...ew_York_(state)

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Among New York State's cities, as of 2010, New York City is 44% white, 28% Latino, 25% African American, and 13% percent Asian American. The city of Buffalo, New York state's second-largest city, is 50% white (45% non-Hispanic white), 38% African American, 10% Latino, and 3% Asian American. The state capital of Albany is 57% white (64% non-Hispanic white), 30% African American, 8% Latino, and 5% Asian American.

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20% is not small by any means, and certainly not small enough to justify the poor representation in media. 1 in 5 is a significant amount considering the number of characters in any given TV show or film, and even more so among the number of notable celebrities. Multi-culturalism is growing, but there will always be closet racists who dig in their heels and cause an uproar. I didn't agree with the Chinese dress being cultural appropriation, and from what I saw, neither did most people, Chinese or not.

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snip.

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Yes, it's clearly their fault they're under-represented. They enjoy being held to white standards for beauty across all media and having to see themselves as either awkward caricatures or not at all. There is no sexism or racism or bias, and to imply otherwise and make the majority uncomfortable is just plain rude and insensitive.

It must be a lovely little bubble you live in.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

In all fairness, it’s difficult to remain cordial with individuals who insinuate that you’re “slow”, or who tell you to “keep up” when you disagree with them.

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Ayee, this is true as well. Usually best to just ignore them at that point, although I think we've all been guilty at times of indulging when we probably shouldn't. ><

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Telling someone glamour doesn’t represent religion =/= race war stuff. Just pointing that out.

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Regardless. It's off-topic and adds nothing to the request. Even I stopped posting. Thread is even worse than before.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

brick wall

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I don't know if you're being deliberately obtuse at this point. You misunderstood my original point and you're misunderstanding me now. The point is they mean nothing in the FFXIV canon. They're not representative, they're meaningless references taken from IRL. The point against more ethnic features was that this is a fantasy game that shouldn't borrow from IRL. This is direct borrowing from IRL with no lore or explanation behind it that was seen as perfectly acceptable.

And they didn't choose that halo, though. They chose the famous Western depiction associated with Christianity, along with robes and wings.

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

Regardless. It's off-topic and adds nothing to the request. Even I stopped posting. Thread is even worse than before.

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The entire thread is off-topic.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

The entire thread is off-topic.

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OP was perfectly on-topic with FFXIV. But whatever.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

It's a reference to a real life religion being put directly into the game without regard to "lore", which is, supposedly, bad.

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These are the kind of people that would cry cultural appropriation if they actually got their way and likely the same ones who did complain about the New World stuff.

Can a mod close this thing? It's just a place to breed stupidity at this point.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

20% is not small by any means, and certainly not small enough to justify the poor representation in media. 1 in 5 is a significant amount considering the number of characters in any given TV show or film, and even more so among the number of notable celebrities. Multi-culturalism is growing, but there will always be closet racists who dig in their heels and cause an uproar. I didn't agree with the Chinese dress being cultural appropriation, and from what I saw, neither did most people, Chinese or not.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Americans

Scroll down to "White population by state"

In the grand scheme of things, yes, it is. Now that does not mean we cannot strive for better representation in areas where it's lacking, but that also means you will never have completely equal representation because Western civilization isn't equally diverse. Nor is any developed nation the world over.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Yes, it's clearly their fault they're under-represented. They enjoy being held to white standards for beauty across all media and having to see themselves as either awkward caricatures or not at all. There is no sexism or racism or bias, and to imply otherwise and make the majority uncomfortable is just plain rude and insensitive.

It must be a lovely little bubble you live in.

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Considering you literally put words in my mouth, I could say the same to you. Please. Quote where I said there is no sexism or racism in the world. If you bothered to read, you'll have noticed I said precisely the opposite. Likewise, I said they are at fault for blaming everyone else as though some invisible boogeyman is holding them back. Statistics have argued against numerous claims of supposed "oppression" yet they're often ignored or purposely misrepresented. They aren't being held to any standard, at least to the extent you're insinuating, otherwise you wouldn't see Beyoncé cited as one of the most beautiful women in the world. But, of course, let's blame everything on that boogeyman again. Maybe you need to step outside your bubble and stop following Internet trends.

This is the exact reason blaming everything on racism and sexism causes far greater problems than it ever helps. You devalue their significance when those issues are, in fact, genuine. Of course, my saying racism and sexism aren't nearly as prevalent you're insinuating somehow means they don't exist. Need to establish that black and white dichotomy.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

I don't know if you're being deliberately obtuse at this point. You misunderstood my original point and you're misunderstanding me now. The point is they mean nothing in the FFXIV canon. They're not representative, they're meaningless references taken from IRL. The point against more ethnic features was that this is a fantasy game that shouldn't borrow from IRL. This is direct borrowing from IRL with no lore or explanation behind it that was seen as perfectly acceptable.

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I’m not even referencing your argument about race; I’m just responding to your misinformed stance on three sets of glamour being representative of entire religions. How am I misunderstanding your original statement about religious representation in this game when you said:

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

There are even references to real world religions in this game.

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And when asked what you meant by religious references:

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Originally Posted by Iscah

What "references to real world religions" are you meaning exactly? I can't think of any.

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You responded as such:

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Taoism, from the glamour. Angels and devils, Christianity.

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The Taoist glamour isn’t representative of Taoism. Angels and devils is a common literary archetype that isn’t just present in Christianity. Borrowing archetypes that don’t follow a single strict religion is common in all forms of media.

My point was you’re reaching by saying glamour options represent religions. And that I gave you way too much credit when I cited actual loose real-life religious/mythological/folklore references made in FFXIV:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I’m guessing they’re referring to Ishgard’s religion as an approximation of Catholicism? Or the talk of a lot of Domans of the “Kami”, which could refer to Japanese Shintoism. That’s the only references I can make.

Or they’re referring to the names of certain primals, since a lot of them derive their names from real-life mythology or folklore, though their in-game counterpart can either be similar to real life, or borrowing just the name with regards to likeness; it varies— Lakshmi is an actual Hindu goddess (the goddess of wealth, fortune, and prosperity). Susano-o, Tsukuyomi, and the Four Lords all also have ties to Japanese mythology/folklore: The first two are part of the Kojiki, a compilation of Japanese origin myths; and the Four Lords originally come from Chinese mythology as gods denoted by constellations, but also have representation/presence in Japanese mythology.

Those aren’t the only ones— a quick search will show you that a lot of the primals have real-world counterparts in various different mythologies: Ifrit has Middle Eastern references, Leviathan has references in the Hebrew Bible, Garuda has references in Hinduism and Buddhism.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

The entire thread is off-topic.

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OP was perfectly on-topic with FFXIV. She wasn't talking about, Jesus, taoism, devils,, angels, religion, New York's racial demographics, and Pokemon characters that are geared towards children who likely don't even care or understand race.

EDIT: Whoops.. don't know how that happened. Thing said I couldn't post..

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

OP was perfectly on-topic with FFXIV. She wasn't talking about, Jesus, taoism, devils,, angels, religion, New York's racial demographics, and Pokemon characters that are geared towards children who likely don't even care or understand race.

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I’d think video games in general would be a place where no one has to care about any of the above. But alas, apparently they are not.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

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I said major cities. And 20% is not a small or insignificant number by any stretch. It's almost a quarter of the population.

So you agree representation can be improved. But you don't agree that racism is behind it?

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You've agreed representation can be improved. But you believe that blaming racism and sexism for these problems is wrong, inferring that it isn't an issue. So what exactly is the cause then? Where do you think racism actually exists? You think they're the ones stopping themselves from having better representation? What statistics are you citing? One black artist being a success in a saturated industry isn't exactly a winning argument, and there are issues surrounding that itself I'm not going into.

Well, I'm confused then. What problems do you judge to be actual racial issues, and more importantly, what evidence do you have to prove this lack of prevalence?

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Originally Posted by Magic-Mal

They won't. Proving my earlier point, everyone decided to post in this thread again the moment it became about race war stuff. It's clear that's all anyone wants to talk about. It's definitely pointless now. People don't want to actually talk about the subject.

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People are only posting about the "race war stuff" to try and make the point that the exclusion of certain facial features or hairstyles has nothing to do with overt racism or insensitivity to certain ethnicities. Yet others continually keep trying to spin it in that direction.

This thread is a deep mine of the highest quality of Ala Mhigan rock salt.

Somebody is really triggered in this thread.

Passive-aggressively insinuating others as being less intelligent...yeesh, I wonder who that might be!

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

So you agree representation can be improved. But you don't agree that racism is behind it?

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It's almost like they aren't mutually exclusive. Shocking, I know.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Well, I'm confused then. What problems do you judge to be actual racial issues, and more importantly, what evidence do you have to prove this lack of prevalence?

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Ones we can actually prove have a racist undertone not simply infer it out of bias assumptions. Case in point, I merely cited Beyoncé as an example yet somehow because there are more successful white artists, it can only be unintentional racism. Okay. Provide that evidence. The burden is on you to prove racism is holding people back, not on me debunk your assumptions. If we go by your logic, shall we call the Hip Hop and R&S genres racist as they've historically been predominantly black? See, that's the issue when you try and force an "ism" on everything. It inevitably applies both ways. Of course, few people doing that ever want to acknowledge it.

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Originally Posted by Joven

I guess I'm the Odd Man Out since I don't feel the need to see myself in a game. If I have the option then I usually purposefully choose characters that are different from me. I'm me 99.95% of the day, in that other 0.05% I don't want to have to think about anything related to being me and lose myself in someone else's story.

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My main is a max height Au Ra man. I’m a five foot nothing girl lol. Like I said, having or not having the option to look like myself is not a deal breaker for me, but it’s a nice addition for those that would, for one reason or another, want to look like me.



@thread
I don’t really see the point going in circles about supposed racism cause it’s how we get 40+ page threads going “I don’t like your tone” “Well I don’t like your tone”. It was totally possible to keep this thread on track but lordy some folks cannot help themselves. I hope OP (or anyone really) adds the suggestions for the hairstyles/skin tones to other threads or start a new one. It’s customization guys. At the end of the day it’s just more customization.

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Originally Posted by Emstidor

Don't you see they CLEARLY just substituted darker skin on characters with traditionally caucasian features, which is NOT ENOUGH and stands as evidence of the DISCRIMINATION that PoC have to endure every day!

:rolleyes: Is it any wonder people didn't take this thread seriously?

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I've never seen anyone IRL look like those characters. They are drawn in the typical anime style which does NOT follow realistic depictions of people IRL. IRL people don't have one line of a mouth and basically a black dot on their face signifying a nose, but that is the style of anime, they don't have well defined noses or lips, and it rarely deviates. It is an art style.

We need more options, faces, hair, etc, yep, no problem there, but the idea that certain facial feature shapes are linked solely to a be all and one all representation of a race is absurd and using it as an argument for that is just pointless.

We just need more options because the current creator doesn't have enough variety in general, not because of some nonsense that they are discriminating by not having the exact shapes everyone wants.

Facial features such as nose shape, eye shape, and lip shape are not 100% linked to your race. The world is too diverse to think in such narrow-minded black and white terms.

Just because someone has a certain shape of eye, a certain shape of nose, a certain shape of lips then they must 100% be or represent a certain race all because of that? Nope.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

It's almost like they aren't mutually exclusive. Shocking, I know.

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Then provide an explanation.

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vague

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Oh, no, no, no. I know your beloved tactic of foisting all responsibility for evidence onto the opposing party and using it to prove yourself right despite the absence of anything even slightly resembling evidence on your part. Where are these statistics you mentioned that prove just how not prevalent racism is? You can't cite that without anything to back it up. How can you prove to me that racism is not behind poor representation?

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Very nice ad hominem. :) You’re losing an argument, so you turn to attacking your opponent instead?

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See it how you will. "Losing." You do really have an unhealthy obsession with this, don't you?

You've completely misunderstood my original point and you've been repeating it back at me despite my telling you otherwise. Referencing something and representing something are not the same thing. You accuse me of "prolonging" things but you've held onto this inane tangent for several pages, to what end, I don't even know.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Then provide an explanation.

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Poor representation can come from simple statistical leanings. A primarily white neighborhood will have a primarily white school, for instance. That doesn't mean the school is unintentional racist, but it also means representation could improve. Likewise, the same logic applies to media. A video game only having heterosexual relationship options isn't necessarily spouting off some homophobic agenda. At the same time, non-traditional relationships could be better represented.

Put simply. If you can prove discrimination. I will fight that battle with you. I will not, however, fight a battle based on blind assumptions.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

Oh, no, no, no. I know your beloved tactic of foisting all responsibility for evidence onto the opposing party and using it to prove yourself right despite the absence of anything even slightly resembling evidence on your part. Where are these statistics you mentioned that prove just how not prevalent racism is? You can't cite that without anything to back it up. How can you prove to me that racism is not behind poor representation?

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Because if you make an accusation, the onus is on you prove it. In fact, let's glance back to your WHM is dead thread. You had literally no evidence except your own opinion, and argued down everyone else despite them going so far as to take screenshots. So I know your "beloved tactic" too. You have an opinion—one often entirely unsubstantiated—then expect others to prove it wrong, or deny the proof they provide.

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Originally Posted by Lunaxia

See it how you will. "Losing." You do really have an unhealthy obsession with this, don't you?

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:rolleyes:

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You've completely misunderstood my original point and you've been repeating it back at me despite my telling you otherwise. Referencing something and representing something are not the same thing. You accuse me of "prolonging" things but you've held onto this inane tangent for several pages, to what end, I don't even know.

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None of my posts have accused you of “prolonging” anything. I suggest you go back and read them. But now that you mention it, you don’t have to keep replying to me. You didn’t even have to reply to my first point. But you do you, boo. :)