What jobs are we hoping to see in the next expansion?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PALADIN01

Though I would like Chemist to be the next healer, its probably going to be Geomancer, and we need a job in which you need to go to Kugane to start up.. Very much how AST, MCH, and DRK were in Ishgard . I think Gunblade will probably be a next- with what we've seen in the story so far. Blue Mage, will make an appearance I know it, someday.. Its one of the classic FF jobs, and shouldn't be left out, it would also be pretty neat, having to do FATES, or the typical instanced story job quest, in which you fight a monster to learn its ability. They could introduce hand axes, and throw in Berserker. Necromancer would be interesting as well.. I would have loved see how Ranger would be (with a cross bow), but we have BRD...Mime could be funny too.. But it would also be awesome to see existing jobs, get a little reworked.. Like SCH/SMN which were so lazily done lol.. But that won't happen of course.

---

We don't really need a job that sends you to Kugane to start, because SE realized that it was frustrating for people with how HW jobs were handled, so they made the SB jobs available sooner in ARR zones. Red Mage was a ala mhigo/gyr abania job and samurai is a kugane/far east job, the fact that you start samurai in Ul'dah instead of Kugane doesn't really matter. The 5.0 jobs will likewise probably start in ARR zones but tie into the story and locations of the new expansion.

I also don't see geomancer happening as a healer. Conjurer/white mage is already a healer with wind/earth elements. I could maybe see geomancer folded into a dancer job kind of like Mog from FF VI being a mix of the two, but I'd be surprised to see a straight up geomancer healer.

My shortlist of jobs I hope to see added over time (not necessarily in the next expac, but in general), include:

- Geomancer (DPS or Healer, bells or chimes)
- Viking (Tank, hammers)
- Mystic Knight (Tank or DPS, longswords?)
- Dancer (Healer, chakram or whips)
- Chemist (Healer or DoT-based DPS)
- Illusionist (DPS, crystals?)
- Blue Mage (DPS, whatever weapon, we have too many swords already)

I won't justify how any of them could work in the roles I'd hope to see them in because this is a just-for-fun list and I'm not a game dev, so I don't know.

I have a strong feeling if they do as people ask and turn dancer into this healer ppl will either cry because it overshadows the other healers too much or it will be too weak to even consider I.e a repeat of its debut in XI. Guys while I have been reading many responses on the support of dancers being healers... I can't help but think you guys are asking for trouble and the high chance of them ruining a job that could have been so much more than this shadow of its self. I will say again this job has always been a OFFENSIVE job and turning it into something it has never been is a bad idea given the balance issues with healers as it is now. I invite anyone to convince me my concerns are unfounded but usually I am not wrong on things I am especially passionate about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaerisKlyne

My shortlist of jobs I hope to see added over time (not necessarily in the next expac, but in general), include:

- Geomancer (DPS or Healer, bells or chimes)
- Viking (Tank, hammers)
- Mystic Knight (Tank or DPS, longswords?)
- Dancer (Healer, chakram or whips)
- Chemist (Healer or DoT-based DPS)
- Illusionist (DPS, crystals?)
- Blue Mage (DPS, whatever weapon, we have too many swords already)

I won't justify how any of them could work in the roles I'd hope to see them in because this is a just-for-fun list and I'm not a game dev, so I don't know.

---

100% behind this list. Especially for Chemist and Geomancer.

Magick Knight, please!

As much as people want to see Chemist and Geomancer... The way Geomancers are portrayed in the 60-70 AST quests leads me to believe geomancy as an art is kind of on its way out/seen as a beginner's stepping stone to astromancy. So adding it as its own, separate class might be kind of redundant. And as for Chemist, that might get kind of confusing, considering that we already have Alchemist as a crafter. Not unless they just renamed Chemist to something else? Some other things... AST is 14's answer to Time Mage, so people asking for that are kind of late? I'll also never understand why people want Beastmaster because it'd just be SMN with less magic. MCH is also 14's answer to Buccaneer/Corsair.

Anyway... I'm on the bandwagon for Dancer. I used to be excited for the idea of Blue Mage, but if it's not a tank, then I don't care much for it.

I'd also really like to see a blunt damage type of DPS. Something that uses a 2h hammer, for example. Or maybe a quarterstaff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deathrose88

I have a strong feeling if they do as people ask and turn dancer into this healer ppl will either cry because it overshadows the other healers too much or it will be too weak to even consider I.e a repeat of its debut in XI.

---

A pointless argument. Throw a rock into the water and you'll get ripples. It's natural. An MMO is a living organism. Stuff is constantly changed. It is physically and mathematically impossible for two different classes to be fully balanced. That is an absolute fact. If you have 1, the ONLY number that can be on the other side of the = symbol is 1. No 1.000000001, no 0.9999999, no 10 or 0. Only 1. That means that the only way for for two classes to be balanced is for them to be either the exact same numerically (having identical skills), or be the exact same in the outcome (having identical healing/damage/tanking output at the same level of skills, regardless of what level that is). In both of these cases it is absolutely worthless to make such classes from any point of view (the latter also being darn difficult to do...in reality most games try this but all of them fail).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deathrose88

I can't help but think you guys are asking for trouble and the high chance of them ruining a job that could have been so much more than this shadow of its self.

---

The exact same will be true regardless of what dancer will become. The fact is that healer and tank is needed. If you do not see that then you are...biased at best. Tank and healer players are not some mutants that never get bored of what they have. If these people won't get "new toys" every so often, they'll quit just like a DPS-only player would. Especially since those jobs are both more difficult and thankless within majority of the community. They have to do mostly all that the DPS do (their DPS matters, ya know) on top of knowing all the mechanics in greater depth and doing their job. And believe me...many DPS make these jobs a lot harder than necessary.

Tanks and healers need some high profile jobs as well. Not generic, boring stuff that's another form of "fighter" or "Cure thrower" with a gimmick added. Seeing as whatever category dancer will be dropped into it's almost certain to be significantly over or underpowered early on and it will cause people disappointment, it's better to actually use its "drawing power" to try and syphon any users into the healers (and keep the current ones in it) rather than have it draw users FROM healers/tanks. Because yes...people DO leave healing and tanking for DPS, especially if it is a class that they wanted.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deathrose88

I will say again this job has always been a OFFENSIVE job and turning it into something it has never been is a bad idea given the balance issues with healers as it is now.

---

"I will say again this job has always been a SUPPORT job and turning it into something it has never been is a bad idea given the balance issues with DPS as it is now."

DPS have way bigger balance issues than healers or tanks, actually. And dancers were pretty heavy on damage, but they also had more than average amount of party support alongside bards, though mostly through crowd control. Crowd control in this game is dead however, so basing their support on healing is the second best option. That being said, dancer in XI was a healer...so yeah. "Always been a offensive job" is a load of bull altogether.

So I don't completely disagree with you. If having a healer to keep the masses entertained is all that is important then give that to another job that is more fit for it like geo or something of that nature that would have separate mechanisms than whm and keep people interested in healing. Yes you are absolutely right, it is impossible to make all jobs equal but dancer I feel is not going be nearly as easy to balance given that it is likely going to be a melee who somehow would generate healing and will be expected to maintain numbers as well as still be competent enough to keep the party alive in end game content. On your last point.... Yes dancer is a support but it is an OFFENSIVE SUPPORT as it has been known to compliment bards beneficial effects. In history(FF5,6,T,X-2,XI) dancer has been known for it vast debilitating effects.... not so much the benefits of party. In XI, yes they attempted to let it perform as a healer but it failed miserably in anything past merit farming. I know this because I mained dnc all the way up and through the latest expansion. Much more towards the later expansions SE decided to abandon the idea of dancer primarily healing with party effects and debuffs and ended up making it closer to what it is known to be an offensive support(a DD if you will) as mentioned above. Now.... yes I will admit I am a little biased and I will try the job out in whatever group it ends up being in.... however, I would regret it if I did not advocate for what I feel it's best fit would be.

Warlock, Druid & Shaman.

Also let me add this, Yes it is true there are balance issues with the melee (since dnc will be a melee likely) as there are with basically everything else in the game but you can get away with having a less optimal dps more than going in with say no shield healer in end game content. Most times when selecting which dps to bring it depends on the mechanics. Yes this can also be said for the need for shields but most times in end game especially some mechanics won't allow for more than four people( two tanks and two melee) to be around the boss making it so having two ranged benefits for the uptime. My point is it truly doesn't matter what melee you bring as they can fill the slot with minimal problems even when considering things like TA and whatever. The balance issue with the melee become less apparent than healers.

Open World update; less barren and safe.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Soge01

Open World update; less barren and safe.

---

very weird job option gotta say

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duskane

very weird job option gotta say

---

A job that can put themself in danger. How odd..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deathrose88

So I don't completely disagree with you. If having a healer to keep the masses entertained is all that is important then give that to another job that is more fit for it like geo or something of that nature that would have separate mechanisms than whm and keep people interested in healing.

---

You absolutely missed the point. Geomancer is the WORST thing we could get. It is not all that popular even though it was partially done for a previous patch and had a lot of exposure in Stormblood. Hardly anyone would even care about or remember there is such a class before Stormblood, mostly ex FFXI players. By lore, it is a mix of Astrologian and White mage, being exactly that...a copy healer with a different name...again...

As a bonus, Geomancer only had any healing in FFXI, plus the NPC in here having uniquely named heal as well. Something you don't want to accept as an argument implying that the healer dancer in FFXI doesn't count. Other than that, geomancers were strictly damage-dealers (either with or without debuffs added).

Ironically, the one game in which the "spot" of geomancers had healing, it was in Final Fantasy VI where Mog had abilities called...dances. They were randomly dealing damage or healing, curing status ailments or buffing the party.


In other words, you understood nothing. And you are extremely biased. You want "all the cool classes" concepts to be DPS throwing a bone to healers or tanks in the form of the most mundane and uninteresting stuff. Healers and tanks really don't need another copy of what they have. That will make people QUIT rather than stick around, because there's only so much patience that one have. Yet another low-effort, low-profile copy would show that these players cannot expect to ever get anything interesting.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deathrose88

Yes you are absolutely right, it is impossible to make all jobs equal but dancer I feel is not going be nearly as easy to balance (...)

---

I don't care. We are talking about a huge company that have the resources and time (two years!) to properly balance a healer (by properly, I mean that it is not grossly over or underpowered on arrival and that it'll get better in first few weeks). Dancer or not doesn't change ANYTHING here. A "dancer" is only the lore. The mechanics are completely separate from it. Really, not many would see a problem if their "dances" were only unique in that they'd have dancing animations while waiting for cast to go off (if they'll have cast bars) or as part of the animation after it does (if no cast bars are used at least).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deathrose88

Yes dancer is a support but it is an OFFENSIVE SUPPORT as it has been known to compliment bards beneficial effects.

---

Oh...Funny thing, you know...We have a Bard in here and it is...an offensive support. Who would have thought.

Sure. Let dancer be a DPS...and turn bard into a healer. I'll tolerate that decision. Otherwise you're "Dancer was an offensive support so it should be offensive support as a DPS, but even though Bard was a party support, it's a cool concept so it should still be a DPS.". That's what I get from that comment of yours. A load of hypocrisy and DPS bias. Don't worry, it's extremely common for people to be biased towards "their depees".

I still don't understand why people want Vikings/ Berserker when we have Warrior already...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cidel

I really need to remind myself to refrain from clicking-on and skimming through job threads like these.

Some of these ideas/concepts are just groan-inducing with how little thought goes into how the game's roles are currently designed and balanced, and how much work would go into redesigning things just for one job to be included just the right way somebody wants.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Alacran

How i feel when people try to say Viking should be possible when we already have Warrior.

If you need to make a class/job with a two handed hammer, must it be so uninspired that the best one can come up with is an already existing jobs theme? In this game we already have Nero and Grynewaht using two handed hammers setting a precedent for an existing class/ job of Garlean origin. From my perspective they do not seem to be Vikings to me. Would it not make more sense to have a Engineer who makes magitek field emitters that create defensive/ buffing AoE's and make it a Tank role? Something that would mirror Machinist but with a defense role rather than a DPS. The whole story could be wrapped around Garlean defectors trying to help make their homeland something to be proud of, something i feel is being missed with the current defectors we have had contact with.

He even calls his hammer Mjolnir ffs...
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/...20130818075023

---

An old post in this same thread.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kikix12

Sure. Let dancer be a DPS...and turn bard into a healer. I'll tolerate that decision. Otherwise you're "Dancer was an offensive support so it should be offensive support as a DPS, but even though Bard was a party support, it's a cool concept so it should still be a DPS.". That's what I get from that comment of yours. A load of hypocrisy and DPS bias. Don't worry, it's extremely common for people to be biased towards "their depees".

---

This tone. Calling people out on prejudices. Because they note traditional identities.

Let's assume you're right and that Deathrose is fatally, irredeemably biased towards DPS in all things just because s/he happens to believe that the DPS role could make a more compelling use of Dancer's toolkit. How is your preference towards Dancer being a healer any less biased? I don't mean this rhetorically; tell me how. And why, exactly, would the healer role create a more enjoyable Dancer than one situated in the damage role?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Duskane

very weird job option gotta say

---

Oops, sorry, forgot this was a job class thread. XD But isn't being the weird the spice of life that keeps away strife~? ;3 But not Cloud Strife; I need his swords for glamour purposes! *3*

Back on topic though... Chemist Sniper! They used ranged rifles and shoot healing bullets like Ana from Overwatch! Or maybe syringes...? I'd totally love it if I got to play as a sniper healer that shot syringes at people to heal them! XD

For me,
blue mage: tank
Magitek Knight: dps (gunblade weapon)
Dancer: healer

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And why, exactly, would the healer role create a more enjoyable Dancer than one situated in the damage role?

---

The general narrative that I keep hearing about dancer isn't about dancer being more enjoyable as a healer, but rather the dynamics of dancer as a class making the healer role more interesting. Ideally we want to be keeping the job identity as close to what people know as possible, and I think that people feel that by making a job like dancer (which is essentially a melee support job) into a healer, it would give us a job that is far more interesting, relative to the other jobs available, than if it were a DPS. It fits both, but as a DPS it would most likely function very similar to BRD, whereas as a healer it would be something totally new in a role that hasn't had anything new since 2.0 first came out (because AST was a copy of WHM/SCH). This is on top of the fact that people just want to see a new healer, and of the choices, dancer seems the most unique.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Soge01

Open World update; less barren and safe.

---

I’m a little late to reply to this now, but I’m gonna anyway.

A job that can make the over world more dangerous? I sense major trolling potential towards other players. :P
Finger hovers over “spawn S rank” button near a gatherer.

As for the ongoing DNC debate, I’ve said it for DRK. I’ve said it for SAM. And now I’ll say it for DNC. 5.0 can’t come soon enough. The sooner the job is announced for whatever role, the sooner the debate of what it should be can finally be buried. I personally hope for healer, as we’ve already got BRD for support DPS. (And by extension, MCH and NIN) There’s also that leak to consider. If it’s true, we’re already getting a new support melee DPS in the form of Blue Mage. Thus, all the more reason to make DNC a healer, IMO.

EDIT: Tone aside, kik is right about the fact that the Tank and Healer roles could really stand something new. Especially the healer role department, as AST is basically just copying from both WHM and SCH to an extent with cards thrown in as their unique mechanic. Healers could really stand a new job that actually dared to be different as much as possible from the other healer jobs. (Mind you, DNC’s will likely carry a very similar basic healing kit as expected if they’re a healer. But their ways of unique healing and DPS could potentially wow people)

There’s also the fact that thanks to Stormblood giving us only DPS jobs, Tank and Healer mains are really twitching for something new to their preferred role. And I’ll admit, I’m among them. I’d be VERY disappointed if we didn’t get a new tank and healer for 5.0.

Yes I also have heard that dancer is going to be a healer and frankly.... even though I may not sound like it... I have come to terms with it. My problem is most of you healers wouldn't care if they ruined the job as you guys would just go back to whatever healer you were playing before. While the rest of us who have been looking forward to dancer since the beginning look at something that could have been so much more. Look #dancer4lyfe but if this is not done well people in general (not just healers) might quit.

That is why I chose to just accept the fact of it being a healer in spite of how I truly feel about it, because the fact of the matter is healers and tanks do need something new and fresh. I just hope they compromise both sides so it feels like a complete dps that just happens to support and heal.... I really loved the debilitating side of dnc and it just makes me sad to think it won't have that full arsenal of status ailments it's known to have.....

I'm hoping the leaks are right and we'll be seeing Blue mage, gunblade(soldier?) and dancer. but I want them to mix things up a bit. I'd want soldier to be a caster tank, and dancer to be a fast paced melee healer. As unlikely as that would be I would adore getting some game play variants to the current roles.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

This tone. Calling people out on prejudices. Because they note traditional identities.

---

This tone was used for an obvious reason. Because she is selective in her noting of traditional identities.

There is nothing wrong with her wanting the dancer to be a DPS. It IS common for people to prefer DPS, which is an absolute fact (hence why all the games I have ever known had more "DPS" classes than "tank" and "healer" classes, and in MMO's those numerous classes had significantly more people playing them than any of the healers/tanks). However the problem begins when someone tries to pass that under a veil of "keeping the traditional identities" as an argument.

Do you have any argument as to why, in a single post (heck, a single PHRASE), she both noted that bards are the "defensive" counterparts of the dancer AND used that as argument why they should stay "offensive" support despite the bards being that in this game?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

(...)just because s/he happens to believe that the DPS role could make a more compelling use of Dancer's toolkit.

---

That's wrong. I say that she is strongly biased because she uses arguments that are, by their nature, very selective. She "conveniently" omits that were these arguments taken at a wider scope, they would have applied to more than a dancer effectively changing this game. Bard, Dark Knight, Warrior, Red Mage and Summoner, all should have been changed in part or in whole (Warrior and Dark Knight should be DPS, Summoner and Red Mage should have significantly more healing power...Phoenix is still the single most powerful heal in this gaming franchise). Going and selectively putting focus on how DPS was always an offensive support (in and off itself false...which the person in question knew very well "maining" the class in FFXI, with Mog in FFVI also using dancing with a fair deal of healing to it...and by fair deal I mean that 6 out of 8 skills could heal, 3 out of 8 could heal status ailments and only 1 of them could only damage) can only be seen as misuse of the argument. And the "kindest" reason for that is bias.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

DPS How is your preference towards Dancer being a healer any less biased? I don't mean this rhetorically; tell me how.

---

You're putting the cart before the horse.

I have given arguments to support my claim that the poster is biased. Ones based not on an empty claim, but on logical flaws. If you can find arguments to support me being biased by using similar logic flaws...go ahead.

I need not do anything more in that respect until the time you do since you're the one accusing me of bias. Try and prove that before asking me to defend by stance.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And why, exactly, would the healer role create a more enjoyable Dancer than one situated in the damage role?

---

This is similarly approaching the matter from the wrong angle.

It is not why the healer role would create a more enjoyable Dancer, but why a Dancer would create a more enjoyable healer.
The problem: Healers and tanks being treated as "necessary evil" and not being given many "goodies". They are generic, similar to each other, lack variety in their lore. All tanks have one feeling as their energy source. Honor for paladins, anger for warriors and hate for dark knights. All healers utilize casting through abstract means. Elemental forces for white mages, mathematical calculations for scholars and celestial paths of some sort for astrologians. Only scholars out of the three don't even have pseudo-deities, instead replacing them with fairies as the catalysts.

Any class can be made to fit any of the three roles, once you consider the artistic freedom of the designer. Since the lore of the world is changed for every Final Fantasy piece, no lore of the previous titles have a tight bond beyond the very, very fundamental parts of it. Dragoons are related to dragons, white mages use holy and heal while black mages use elemental magic to destroy etc. If you'll pay attention, the "realistic" classes, like paladins, warriors, bards etc. utilize real-life aspects of these professions instead. These jobs really existed and always had some things in common to be called that.

That means that dancer have only one thing that is absolute. The fact that they dance. Then there is something that was upheld for all of their appearances. They supported the party in some manner alongside their individual offense. Those are the only two things that need to be upheld for the Dancer to be...well...a Dancer.

So if the problem is lack of highly-attractive, unique jobs for the healers and tanks, Dancer being the solution is simply reasonable. Personally I would be as satisfied with it being a tank, really, but that is highly doubtful. This game does not permit evasion tanks by design, so quite a lot of hoops would need to be jumped through to make a tank with a Dancers esthetics that could work in this game. Not impossible, but unlikely. So the option left is a healer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deathrose88

I really loved the debilitating side of dnc and it just makes me sad to think it won't have that full arsenal of status ailments it's known to have.....

---

That's impossible. The developers in this game make their best effort to remove ANY status ailments they can, without moving away from the fact that Final Fantasy series is riddled with them. That's why most effects that work on bosses are ONLY DoT or some vulnerability+ (which they culled as well). There is no crowd control, no fixed damage (gravity effect), no nothing. The negative status effects are used purely against players, and most of them are uncurable because it would be too easy to just Esuna them.

I'd like to see Time Mage... see image below, number two on the last row.

https://gematsu.com/wp-content/uploa...s_11-18-15.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ramesses

I'd like to see Time Mage... see image below, number two on the last row.

https://gematsu.com/wp-content/uploa...s_11-18-15.jpg

---

Hate to be that guy, but right now AST is our Time Mage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Hate to be that guy, but right now AST is our Time Mage.

---

...Really? Looks like you intended to be that guy. I must've leveled the AST job all the way to 70 and had absolutely no idea.

I was actually looking at this from the lens of the job being a support DPS, as was its traditional role in Final Fantasy Tactics.

As I said before I understand why most people want dancer to be a healer.... it IS because most people really don't like the healer/tank role because for the most part they are pretty mundane, but I have to think that even if they had released a healer for stormblood you would still be biased to dancer being a healer judging from the very... lol assertive stance (that's putting it lightly) you have... its ok though the fact of the matter still remains and is a large part why I choose not to argue this point further.... Healers AND tanks for that matter do need something to draw people to them. Whether this helps or not I don't know, we can only hope it does. However there is one last thing I do wish point out looking at the misinformation about FF6 and about my maining DNC in XI... 1. Mog in 6 had 32 skills (31 if you don't include sunbath) of these skills 6 of them were beneficial.... 2. When I spoke of maining DNC I did that to point out how I know how they tried to make it work and ultimately were not successful due to amount of dmg and status ailments going out. They ended up later in the expansions changing the weapon values and 1 handed weapons value to help give one handed jobs a boost to their dmg to bring them on par with 2 handed weapons. This ultimately made it so DNC produced far more damage and was used more for it dmg production than its healing. Now, I'm not discarding the fact that it has healing because yes I did on occasion use them, but that was only when shit hit the fan. So I say all that to say this, no my point of view is not only coming from a biased side it's coming from facts as well and having had actually played this job to its full potential. So make sure we read before we go head hunting sweetie.

Edit: Mog's dances used sunbath twice which is why I said 31. My apologies it wasn't communicated appropriately.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ramesses

...Really? Looks like you intended to be that guy. I must've leveled the AST job all the way to 70 and had absolutely no idea.

I was actually looking at this from the lens of the job being a support DPS, as was its traditional role in Final Fantasy Tactics.

---

Said as if having an intent does not mean I like having that intent.

Healers in this game can be viewed as support DPS, with Astro themselves offering several support cards on their own. All in all, I'm not convinced Astrologian doesn't fit the fantasy of a Time Mage in all but name.

I'd like to see blue mage and necromancer like death knight from wow where you control a zombie as a pet to help out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kikix12

This is similarly approaching the matter from the wrong angle.

It is not why the healer role would create a more enjoyable Dancer, but why a Dancer would create a more enjoyable healer.

---

A more enjoyable healer than... what? Have we even tested the waters on other potential support jobs?

Until that point, I disagree. If a job is to be implemented, it should be implemented to its best benefit. Only once design is caught between an exhausted pool of candidates for a role should design consider compromising the job's own attractiveness in favor of filling out a given role.

Quote:

---

The problem: Healers and tanks being treated as "necessary evil" and not being given many "goodies". They are generic, similar to each other, lack variety in their lore. All tanks have one feeling as their energy source. Honor for paladins, anger for warriors and hate for dark knights. All healers utilize casting through abstract means. Elemental forces for white mages, mathematical calculations for scholars and celestial paths of some sort for astrologians. Only scholars out of the three don't even have pseudo-deities, instead replacing them with fairies as the catalysts.

---

This isn't a problem with their roster, though; White Mage, Scholar, and Astrologian are entirely capable of differentiating themselves, as are Dark Knight, Paladin, and Warrior. Its specifically a problem with design philosophy, and compounded almost every step of the way by vast sections of the player community: the driving need for them to fill as nearly as homogeneous a set of capacities as possible. In XIV tanking is not an action or activity so much as it simply existing while having access to an enmity combo, an enmity AoE, an enmity ranged attack, 6 to 7 cooldowns, Provoke, and an immunity skill. Job identity has been sacrificed at nearly every step to ensure that every job which can tank (verb), is a (near-identical) tank (noun). It's precisely because job identity has been sacrificed in favor of homogeneity that healers and tanks have become "necessary evils". They do not meet a given role: they simply are that role -- the same protojob -- with a small allowance of randomization. Conceptually, certain DPS are no less hindered, but at least their toolkits, being centered around their own rotations, offer more variance where it most counts, i.e. in their gameplay.

Quote:

---

Any class can be made to fit any of the three roles, once you consider the artistic freedom of the designer. Since the lore of the world is changed for every Final Fantasy piece, no lore of the previous titles have a tight bond beyond the very, very fundamental parts of it. Dragoons are related to dragons, white mages use holy and heal while black mages use elemental magic to destroy etc. If you'll pay attention, the "realistic" classes, like paladins, warriors, bards etc. utilize real-life aspects of these professions instead. These jobs really existed and always had some things in common to be called that.

That means that dancer have only one thing that is absolute. The fact that they dance. Then there is something that was upheld for all of their appearances. They supported the party in some manner alongside their individual offense. Those are the only two things that need to be upheld for the Dancer to be...well...a Dancer.

---

Agreed. Completely.

Quote:

---

So if the problem is lack of highly-attractive, unique jobs for the healers and tanks, Dancer being the solution is simply reasonable. Personally I would be as satisfied with it being a tank, really, but that is highly doubtful. This game does not permit evasion tanks by design, so quite a lot of hoops would need to be jumped through to make a tank with a Dancers esthetics that could work in this game. Not impossible, but unlikely. So the option left is a healer.

---

I'd be fine with Dancer as a healer, tank, or DPS; it really does not matter to me what role it's colored as. I care only that it has a cohesive toolkit that actually makes the most out of the fact it dances, rather than it being little more than flavor text when having access to <Enmity Combo/Ranged/AoE/Topper; Cooldowns; Immunity>, <Combo 1, Combo 2, Self-Buff>, or <Useless heal, More expensive heal, AoE heal, Augmented/alternate heal, cooldowns, special>.

But... you're treating the symptoms here. For Dancer to have a positive effect on the healer roster, allowance and philosophy are going to have to change first. Offer the current design philosophy a Dancer healer and you will simply have a bit more thoroughly butchered Dancer than you'd likely see from what the DPS role allows from its jobs. No role template alone is a good fit for Dancer. But, as you've already noted, the tank and healer templates are far more restrictive. So, until things change, I do think DPS would allow for a slightly better Dancer than would Healer or Tank, and I do think that's more important, given how closely another healer or tank generate "more of the same" in the current design philosophy, than Dancer making a good Healer, or Tank, or DPS. I sorely hope that philosophy changes such that Dancer is a Dancer, and not a template with flavor elements, and could thereby be colored however without losing its unique additions to the game, but so long as a lack of allowance for job identity is what's causing the problem, I have to favor job identity over role-bolstering.

I would actually not mind if there threw out only one "new" job and chose to re-do in a real effort some of the existing jobs that have been flawed for a long time (looking at White Mage and Machinist as of today).
Each expansion brings a new level cap and a "re-thinking" of each individual job in the spirit of that new battle system (like the job gauges we had for 4.0). Ultimately, adding jobs built around those new concepts might fall flat when the new expansion kicks in with a new concept that works better for jobs than some others. For instance I like what they did with the song rotation on Bards, I like that they did not add anything to AST in that respect, as the cards are enough for the job, and I don't like how they tried to "force" that system on WHM with lillies, or SCH with the fairy gauge. Of course it is my personal opinion, I think that not all jobs will fit in the idea of "filling up a gauge to access other abilities".

My point is that if they are to add more jobs than what they can balance (not even in terms of effectiveness in the meta/high end content), each loop of patches we will see those sacrificed jobs "waiting for next expac". For me the point of having various jobs is to find a personal identity in each one that makes the job enjoyable to play.
I also think the current system of roles narrows the possibilities for each job. I do not know a lot about tanking, but I've heard a lot of complaints regarding tank and dps stances. The shielding vs regen healer duality. The overall balance of DPS with raid buffs, debuffs, rDPS and pDPS.
I would be disappointed if we would get a dancer heal that would be a shield heal resulting of always having WHM-AST / SCH -DNC, or a regen heal resulting in WHM-AST-DNC / SCH, or a versatile heal close to AST.


But yeah, I'm all for Dancer as a healer and Blue Mage as a caster (because it is what I like to play).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

A more enjoyable healer than... what? Have we even tested the waters on other potential support jobs?



I'd be fine with Dancer as a healer, tank, or DPS; it really does not matter to me what role it's colored as. I care only that it has a cohesive toolkit that actually makes the most out of the fact it dances, rather than it being little more than flavor text when having access to <Enmity Combo/Ranged/AoE/Topper; Cooldowns; Immunity>, <Combo 1, Combo 2, Self-Buff>, or <Useless heal, More expensive heal, AoE heal, Augmented/alternate heal, cooldowns, special>.

But... you're treating the symptoms here. For Dancer to have a positive effect on the healer roster, allowance and philosophy are going to have to change first. Offer the current design philosophy a Dancer healer and you will simply have a bit more thoroughly butchered Dancer than you'd likely see from what the DPS role allows from its jobs. No role template alone is a good fit for Dancer. But, as you've already noted, the tank and healer templates are far more restrictive. So, until things change, I do think DPS would allow for a slightly better Dancer than would Healer or Tank, and I do think that's more important, given how closely another healer or tank generate "more of the same" in the current design philosophy, than Dancer making a good Healer, or Tank, or DPS. I sorely hope that philosophy changes such that Dancer is a Dancer, and not a template with flavor elements, and could thereby be colored however without losing its unique additions to the game, but so long as a lack of allowance for job identity is what's causing the problem, I have to favor job identity over role-bolstering.

---

Absolutely agree with all of this and is basically what I wanted to convey before things got out of hand lol my apologies. I hope the designers of this job take these points in consideration when deciding on heal vs tank vs dps for the dancer job, because as shurri said ,if I may paraphrase, it would be a shame to water a job down to just fill a place in a roster than to create it for it is best suited.

I’d love a 2H hammer class akin to what we’ve seen from Nero. Unfortunately I don’t see that ever happening due to a plethora of WAR abilities sharing similar animations.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lauront

-Chemist; a healer who uses non-magical means to heal, with cast times representing the mixture of potions, elixirs etc. (abstract resource units rather than actual inventory contents)

-Tamer; essentially a crossbow wielder with a pet

---

I would like those two.

I'd just love a pet class with wild animals. As you fight with them, you forge a bond like with a dog and his master. Over time their attacks and their abilities become your own.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kazgrel

I’d love a 2H hammer class akin to what we’ve seen from Nero. Unfortunately I don’t see that ever happening due to a plethora of WAR abilities sharing similar animations.

---

Would be cool if they did something unusual like give you teh option between a 2H Mace, or 1H mace and Shield on the same class. But I think they stepped away from that a while back.

That also being said, since classes are becoming static, it would be interesting to see classes open up having multiple roles, but I dont hazard thatll happen due to how much effort reworking not only balance but the game in general, to have that occur.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deathrose88

1. Mog in 6 had 32 skills (31 if you don't include sunbath) of these skills 6 of them were beneficial....

---

No. Mog had eight dances. Eight skills from which you could choose.

Those eight skills, when used, would have caused one of four effects. You could not use, say, Tapir from a menu. You had to use Love Serenade which then would use Tapir 1 out of 16 times (statistically).

Saying that it had 31/32 skills is like saying that Rikku had 64 overdrives instead of one or Rinoa had 9 limit breaks when she have only two.

Don't mistake an "effect" for an "ability".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

A more enjoyable healer than... what? Have we even tested the waters on other potential support jobs?

---

A more enjoyable healer than another copy-paste caster healer with a simple quirk to differentiate it. A healer that actually plays different, even if ultimately does the same thing. After all, there are only three major things that are being done in this game. Dealing damage, healing damage and taking damage. Well, you can count interacting with stuff and debuffs too...but meh. So it's how you do then that matters.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Until that point, I disagree. If a job is to be implemented, it should be implemented to its best benefit.

---

I believe that the game is for players, not the players are for the game.

This game is not one of those whose aim is artistic vision. There is no item mall in artistic vision. You don't expect to buy a statue of a human only to get the bare torso, head and limbs paid separately, do you?! Art is done and gone deal. If it's sold incomplete, it's not art but yer average product.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Only once design is caught between an exhausted pool of candidates for a role should design consider compromising the job's own attractiveness in favor of filling out a given role.

---

Except it doesn't. Why do you think that a healer dancer is compromising on the jobs attractiveness? Personally I always thought the opposite. Dancing is done to relax, people watch dancers to relax. Dancing may have been used by assassins as method of getting close to the target I guess, but that's because it causes people to relax and lower their guard. In comparison...one can cause serious damage with proper wavelength or loudness of sounds, so bards always DID seem to me as the sort with more potential for destructive/negative effects (though, of course, good music is as relaxing as good dancing).

And...let's look at it from another point of view. You are claiming that it should be a DPS (because you are claiming it shouldn't be a healer and I don't think anyone here implies that it'd do best as a tank). How it would work as a DPS then?!

Simple. Most likely option is a hybrid between monk and bard. Yeah. A melee class using monks "combo" pattern with party buffs. This is literally what mostly anyone thinks about first when said "fighting dancer". That's because both martial arts and dance focus around the "flow" of the body, while both dances and music are an ongoing effect which, in world of Final Fantasy, are a positive/negative status givers. And dancers always were a counterpart to bards in this series, so they had things in common within the game.


So...what is a "better use of dancer". Making it into an Astrologian of the DPS (combining two difficult classes into one, making it impossible for average player to enjoy it) or making it into a healer that would (hopefully) force a different design philosophy due to it's differences from what a healer is?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Its specifically a problem with design philosophy(...)

---

And that's why a dancer is good choice for a healer because it cannot really work with the same design philosophy. Lore-wise the three healers we have here now are all very similar no matter how you look at it. They are similar by their very nature. Just like in real life a heavy knight was similar to a cavalry knight (once the cavalry knight dismounted their horse). Making them feel and seem unique takes effort.

On the other hand, making Dancer feel and seem similar to them is the part that takes effort. It is by nature as different as a knight and an archer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

(...)the driving need for them to fill as nearly as homogeneous a set of capacities as possible.

---

That's false. I know only one person that claims that every tank and every healer should have the same core skill set. A single person. And his main (only) argument as to that is the fact that all the tanks and healers up till now shared that. You mistook the cause for the effect. It is Square Enix that locked themselves to that one design, not players. What players want is for the classes to be viable. Not for them to be similar.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

But, as you've already noted, the tank and healer templates are far more restrictive.

---

The problem is that templates are used at all. And dancers being so different from what other healers stand for have far higher chance of making the developers see that using a template is detriment to design. Templates by very definition can are for removal of differences. You do not make a different class only for it to be the same as all before. That's why a template never should have been made in the first place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

So, until things change, I do think DPS would allow for a slightly better Dancer than would Healer or Tank(...)

---

Once again...What is better in a hybrid between monk and bard than a different take on a healer?


You're also making a very major mistake. You assume that the philosophy needs to change FIRST before doing something like that. Do you know what is wrong in that? That it is impossible. Using that argument, no matter what they would try to make, they'd need to follow the same template until this games death.

After all, for the philosophy to change there needs to be some influence to change it. And that influence is a class that does not fit the "template" they made. If you want all the classes that do not fit the template to be put into whatever category they "fit in" until the template will be changed, you basically are expecting an impossible thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kikix12

You're also making a very major mistake. You assume that the philosophy needs to change FIRST before doing something like that. Do you know what is wrong in that? That it is impossible. Using that argument, no matter what they would try to make, they'd need to follow the same template until this games death.

After all, for the philosophy to change there needs to be some influence to change it. And that influence is a class that does not fit the "template" they made. If you want all the classes that do not fit the template to be put into whatever category they "fit in" until the template will be changed, you basically are expecting an impossible thing.

---

There does indeed need to be something to manifest a change. But, for the addition to do so, there first needs to be a change in the parameters.

Imagine it as a range. At present, you can go from -5 to 5. If the variance from the template exceed whatever those values stand for. You're asking that the game and its spread of options be improved by adding in a 10. It literally cannot happen until the parameters are expanded. Once they are, the first thing to use that expanded allowance to break out of the former rut shows the change. It does not make the change; it shows it.

Quote:

---

The problem is that templates are used at all. And dancers being so different from what other healers stand for have far higher chance of making the developers see that using a template is detriment to design. Templates by very definition can are for removal of differences. You do not make a different class only for it to be the same as all before. That's why a template never should have been made in the first place.

---

You seem to be implying I'm okay with these templates simply because there's one that's not quite as horrifyingly stiffling to design, despite 5k character post to the contrary that berates templates at least once per paragraph? I'm not. That's the whole point: I do not think the template will largely matter so long as new jobs are not allowed to deviate from them.

If not, I can only say I obviously agree, although you apparently have far more faith in XIV's current mindset for job design that I do. Every interview in regards to fan-requested jobs have set -- damn near explicitly -- only two expectations: (1) if it will be implemented, it will be implemented as per all other jobs in the (sub)role, with the same core features (explication on DRK, AST, and RDM), and (2) if it cannot be implemented per that template, it will not be implemented (BLU).

That is the philosophy they've both followed to the tee and made clear to us that... they will continue to follow to the tee. If that does not change, Dancer will not shake things up for any one role, nor for the stale and limiting structure of roles themselves. It will be a WHM/SCH hybrid or just another support-DPS.

Quote:

---

That's false. I know only one person that claims that every tank and every healer should have the same core skill set. A single person. And his main (only) argument as to that is the fact that all the tanks and healers up till now shared that. You mistook the cause for the effect. It is Square Enix that locked themselves to that one design, not players. What players want is for the classes to be viable. Not for them to be similar.

---

Check early BCoB and Gordias-era posts. Check the developer responses and rationales to balance changes in those areas. The responses often borderline come off as "we didn't want to do this, but you're giving us no choice". While the cause was undoubtedly vocal minorities making themselves known at opportune times and events, that at least became the driving perception of the commmunity by development, to the point that we can scarcely go a gameplay/balance segment of a live letter where Yoshida reminds us "but then it wouldn't really be a BLM anymore..."

"This is unplayable for my job" posts, despite the neglected outcries of SB MCH and -- for a while, especially -- DRKs, have gotten more attention than any others. And as those posts are most concerned with how another class does X thing better, the solution requested is has usually been direct parity. Heck, Shake it Off's homogenizing reform, plus or minus only the Intervention-scalability component, was requested exactly on both NA and JP forums (one of which I posted on, and the other I kept track of at the time) -- an instant raid damage shield... because Paladin had it, and Paladin's is (was) OP.

Quote:

---

Except it doesn't. Why do you think that a healer dancer is compromising on the jobs attractiveness? Personally I always thought the opposite. Dancing is done to relax, people watch dancers to relax. Dancing may have been used by assassins as method of getting close to the target I guess, but that's because it causes people to relax and lower their guard. In comparison...one can cause serious damage with proper wavelength or loudness of sounds, so bards always DID seem to me as the sort with more potential for destructive/negative effects (though, of course, good music is as relaxing as good dancing).

---

I never said placing Dancer in the healing role, mutatis mutandi, would compromise its identity. I was specifically referring to your suggestion that Dancer be placed in the healer role because the healer role needs more distinct* healers. (* Again, we're at a impasse here; I don't think Dancer, in the present climate, can make a distinct healer, only another butchered hybrid that then functions just as WHM, SCH, or AST would, though I'd love to be proven wrong despite the development history thus far.)

For the record, I too see Bards as more offensively oriented than Dancers. I like what 1.x's lore did with them; their use literal point-commanders and squad-leaders made perfect sense -- convey instructions, keep the units coordinated, keep up morale, and take advantage of or work to counter the tide of battle through tactical strikes (by arrow) and through, in a sense, mental warfare (by song). That's practical and beautiful. Dancers I see more as someone able to flow between front and back lines -- a true hybrid range fighter, rather than a range-alternating combatant like RDM -- as if able to strike without striking, or where strikes are happenstance of movement and proximity (perhaps slightly sacrificing speed, resource generation, or adaptability in order to inflict direct damage). All should be about that flow, and what can be made of that. I see that as support. The problem is that at present, healers have very few support characteristics. They have healing... and then damage. In just three abilities per character, Overwatch supports, for instance, have more nuance of actual... support.

Dancer is an incredibly, incredibly powerful concept, and I do not want to see it squashed or left in a butchered state just because the game hadn't yet allowed for a "real" Dancer. But if the job is what makes, rather than shows, the change in how roles function (in themselves and/or together), that is not only a real risk, but the likely outcome. Sure, Dancer might nudge public outcry so the next is done right: that would make change. But it will be too late for Dancer, just as it's apparently too late for the WHM, SCH, and AST concepts you seem to find irredeemable. That's why I'd rather see changes made to the existing jobs, to the role itself, before Dancer is wholly considered for implementation. But, if the rumors are true and Dancer is slated for 5.0 anyways, I just hope its in whatever template destroys its gameplay potential the least.

Quote:

---

I believe that the game is for players, not the players are for the game.

This game is not one of those whose aim is artistic vision.

---

Again, I'm not suggesting some artistic oligarchy here. I'm not suggesting some sort of Westworld-esque project, where players are merely pawns to artistic ends. Your "for the people, by the people" vibe here is wholly misplaced.

I am suggesting that when the leading issue with the game is the poor allowance for job identity, that you don't sacrifice job identity. You deal with the problem, rather than just throwing on more bandages.



tl;dr: Yes, changes are easier to broach when you have a poster child to head them. Dancer, like Blue Mage, would be an ideal poster child for a sweeping reform that allows jobs to center on themselves, rather than on their roles/templates, thereby correcting much--or even most--of what is wrong with the current healer and tank rosters. But you don't throw away a trump card like that early on before any of the context is set. You certainly don't throw it in there to smooth things over (albeit badly) in the meantime. Jobs reforms that allow, say, a Dark Knight to wholly be a Dark Knight--which fills the needs of its roles in its own way, rather than off small and mostly irrelevant deviations from a template--would be attractive enough to existing players in their own right. You neither ought nor need to martyr another job to that cause. Improve on what's there first, set the stage, and then play the trump card when it can actually do something, rather than to merely placate healers/tanks. As reasonable as their complaints are, those complaints would be better met by whole measures, not bandaging.

Time mage as an support dps class that has their own types of buff/debuffs and a short burst window, AST will never be a "time mage attempt on ffxiv" in my eyes >->

Also i would really enjoy a class that's based of Terra from ffvi and can go into primal-trance modes, enabling them to use a fragment of x primal powers for a short period of time (maybe treat the trance as memories of ppl that became primals at one point, like ysayle/thordan/zenos/yotsuyu)