he said it they may have more then one per class, not that they will. I personally don't want any new jobs coming from half assed class after thoughts. There is a way to make it work but not the way the current job system works, to take glad and infuse it with 5 new abilitys(at lvl 50) and form a second job would be awful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Velhart
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11-30-2012, 02:32 AMsyntaxlies
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11-30-2012, 02:33 AMShougunQuote:
Originally Posted by Velhart
This whole thread is theorycrafting - we dont need to know. When we know we change our theories (of what could be better). Please dont use this as an "acceptable" way to shut people up as it is far from being correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Velhart
I responded. While not stupid like "Its alpha, lets not talk about it" it is still very silly. You use what you know and adapt as you go. I'm sure *really hope* Yoshida has thought of a lot of this and has some surprises in store. But until then, it is bothering me to think this system will go forth unscathed from the change hammer. -
11-30-2012, 02:37 AMRaagnarDont get annoyed Shou, I was just making a counter point. If you dont like the entire system but still play ARR then thats your problem. But if you dont mind how its been set up but are arguing that DRK cant possibly be made from GLA, that just doesnt make sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
Lets not forget the topic though, this was about wanting to get rid of the class system and by the last few pages of this debate it will obviously have a place in ARR, we know that much. So why would they change it drastically now or remove it. We are getting a second battle overhaul they never said they were changing the armoury system. -
11-30-2012, 02:40 AMShougunSorry felt like you were trying to mock me "Still... what?" "this is how it works" (obvious) at least in my head sounds rude. ( :P )Quote:
Originally Posted by Raagnar
I dont think the battle system is going to see drastic changes (from what he already has planned) - however I dont mind a Rep or Yoshida seeing our worries and perhaps hes got a system planned or is like "oh shit" himself and then has one planned. I dont want to play the game and be like god damn this feels like a gld with a few dd spells.. when its supposed to be a dark knight..
you know? lol -
11-30-2012, 02:42 AMVelhartWhat I really meant was "What the system is capable of.". Not basing the ideals as a fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by syntaxlies
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11-30-2012, 02:45 AMsyntaxliesSince they are overhauling the actions I can only assume that the 1.0 revision was made to balance the content with an over simplified action list for cost reasons. I'm really hoping they fix class/job roles and don't listen to all the white knights telling them everything is good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
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11-30-2012, 02:46 AMVelhartReally? Doesn't sound that way to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
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11-30-2012, 02:48 AMShougunYeah me too. I mean I'm sure there are small subtle fixes I havent thought about (macro changes are easier to deal with) so i'm not saying my way or the highway. But I will be dissapointed if jobs get turned into things they are not just because they are trying to stick to the system.Quote:
Originally Posted by syntaxlies
Like DRK with GLD is just anyway you look at it not a DRK. However I could see a MRD (who already has blood letting skills and dps) perhaps lead into DRK. Though they still need to introduce weapon rules (jobs getting weapons the class doesn't get).
Anything said about the game is our feedback, anything we dont fully know about the game becomes our theory crafting of how it might be more fun for us. (But there isnt one way to successfully do something - usually at least)Quote:
Originally Posted by Velhart
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11-30-2012, 02:50 AMsyntaxliesUsing 1.0 as my example here:Quote:
Originally Posted by Velhart
If glad got dark knight as a second job and all you get is. 5 skills one of which being a 15 min, I would be extremely disappointed. Jobs play to much like the class they are from to have 2 jobs from class.
As stated before, if classes have class only skills, and lose them to gain extra job skills then I could see this being a viable thing to do. -
11-30-2012, 02:53 AMRaagnarYeah that would suck if you have an idea of how DRK is supposed to be in FFXIV and theirs doesnt match yours. Like how some are upset that BRD isnt pure traditional BRD. Ive seen "dark knight" class be tank in other games. They could very well go that route, as you pointed out earlier we just dont know what they have planned yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
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11-30-2012, 02:56 AMRaagnarBecause some enjoy the system they are white knights? Does that make you a troll for complaining about a system in a game you play? Just because some dont agree with you doesnt mean they just blindly defend the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by syntaxlies
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11-30-2012, 02:57 AMVelhartIt really can go any way where DRK fits in. On a FF nostalgic side, Paladin and Dark Knight have always been a ying-yang of each other, and would make a nice story (lore wise) of the two. Like I said, the practicality of the two being within the same class has to be judged by the concepts of the GLD in 2.0. If we went by how 1.xx's system is set up, then DRK would be most logical in MRD, or even kind of LNC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
Or maybe they won't even release DRK until a brand new class comes in. That is always a strong possibility, lol. -
11-30-2012, 02:58 AMsyntaxliesWould be dumb to have 2 jobs from one class and make them both tanks IMOQuote:
Originally Posted by Raagnar
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11-30-2012, 02:59 AMsyntaxliesPeople who defend obvious flaws or can not find any flaws of their own are white knight imoQuote:
Originally Posted by Raagnar
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11-30-2012, 03:00 AMShougunTrouble with FF games is you dont want to bang the golden formula too much (there is an obvious expectation of say a Dragoon, make a dragoon that cant jump you will be burnt before the patcher finishes).Quote:
Originally Posted by Raagnar
I assume you are talking Dark Knight like from WoW? Yeah but no... lol (Tanking Dark Knight) -
11-30-2012, 03:00 AMZoloeThis was my exact thinking! I just think, from a lore perspective, that gladiator would be cool to branch into these two completely opposite jobs! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Velhart
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11-30-2012, 03:02 AMShougunExcept they wouldn't be opposite - at all -... it would be two completly similar jobs with slight nuancesQuote:
Originally Posted by Zoloe
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11-30-2012, 03:05 AMsyntaxliesExactly and completely 100% this^^^^^^^^^^Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
It's like in zoo lander, "one look " -
11-30-2012, 03:07 AMDaku_Naito
I like it because it reminds me of past FFs, plus it allows for more combinations for jobs. For now, each class has one job to go into, it will change soon. Also, no reason to abolish something that there is nothing wrong with.
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11-30-2012, 03:08 AMZoloeStrip your mind of the old FFXIV for a minute. I'm not talking about Gladiator as you know it. Gladiator would have skills that would be useful for both jobs and when you change to either job, you gain skills that make you completely different (and opposite) from the other. Opposite meaning, one is a tank (defense) and one is a damage dealer (offense).Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
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11-30-2012, 03:08 AMsyntaxliesI must have died and went to crazy town. Why do people think classes are getting more then one job?Quote:
Originally Posted by Daku_Naito
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11-30-2012, 03:09 AMRaagnarNever played wow, But I guess thats another. Speaking of dragoon, there were a bunch of similar reactions when drg was released with no wyvern and it turned out just fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
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11-30-2012, 03:09 AMThebardJust a thought but 1.0's lore doesn't need to have anything to do with any ties between classand job. Lets just say now its a new era and we all got our collective butt kicked the guilds reformed and everything is done differently now and why not (just with embelishments :P).Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoloe
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11-30-2012, 03:10 AMShougunQuote:
Originally Posted by Zoloe
You cant do that.. Because then you are making the class do well at both dps and tanking - each class must have a purpose each job must have a purpose they cannot be everything at once.
(Its bad balancing). If you make it do well so it can go into DRK or PLD you are either going to have to make every class OP or just have an OP class. OR make it suck at both and no one will ever use the class but to level up and then you are making classes useless and there is no point to have them.
Either way its a no no. The only solution I see is to make changing your job retroactively change the classes skills to be in theme with the job. OR make each job its own "class" that is unlocked from other jobs. -
11-30-2012, 03:13 AMShougunWyvern isnt a core element of Dragoons. Only FFXI onry players or players who really enjoyed that element were complaining. Die hard through the FF series dragoon fans were like yeah its happened but it isnt a requirement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raagnar
Also people recognized that adding a beast pet to your class means you have to nerf your main character - which some didnt want. -
11-30-2012, 03:22 AMDaku_NaitoYeah, I couldn't agree more. They are going down to base FF jobs, with the exception of bard. Who in order to make it a job from archer, they made him have a bow and only a few songs. But Dark Knight would definitely be traditional, as well as the rest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
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11-30-2012, 03:23 AMRaagnar
Being a DD isnt a core element of DRK either, its a theme, they can make the job work how they want it to. By your logic people unfamiliar with FFXI might expect DRK to be a tank because they have seen it tank more often than not.
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11-30-2012, 03:26 AMShougunThat's like saying being a black Mage doesn't have to include dd magic. If you are playing by these rules our visions of ff are far apart.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raagnar
Drk wasn't just dd in ffxi. -
11-30-2012, 03:29 AMZoloeI can and will! Muwahahaha! You people take things too damn seriously. It's just something I think would be cool, of course they'd have to figure out balancing and all that crap. I'm not the one figuring that out, I'm just throwing a concept out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
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11-30-2012, 03:31 AMZoloeWith that in mind. New lore that makes it so DRK and PLD are against each other or something would be really cool to see.... but whatever. I look forward to seeing what actually happens vs what we would like to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thebard
p.s. Just to clarify. Just because I want to see what they have in store does not mean I do not want people to still suggest things and put their ideas out there. :P -
11-30-2012, 03:39 AMZoloe
After thinking about it for a short while, I've come to the conclusion that having branching jobs from one class would never work out with the way the armoury system is right now.
If PLD and DRK did branch from GLD and you chose to be a PLD and lvl to 50~ your DRK would automatically be the same lvl, but without the job abilities from the quests (if you didn't do quests along the way).
Of course this is strictly speaking of the 1.whatever version of FFXIV, but yea.... it would be lame.
If they made it so PLD or DRK started at lvl 1 when you unlocked them, we'd be playing FFXI again. -
11-30-2012, 03:43 AMShougunI was thinking instead if level 1 you could always start it at the level you do the job quest (35?)Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoloe
Would get your own weapon, skill sets and traits logically having a separate class and you don't have to level from 1.. -
11-30-2012, 03:45 AMZoloeYea, lvl 30 or 35 would probably work out. I know I wouldn't want to have a lvl 50 DRK when I've never played the damn job lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
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11-30-2012, 03:47 AMsyntaxlies
There are 8 known classes now, if each class got 2 jobs then that would make 16 jobs. At that rate it seems a focus on quantity instead of quality would be a problem. I'd rather jobs come from classes that had the job in mind and not add a job to a class as an after thought, that is all.
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11-30-2012, 03:54 AMSkiesPersonally i'd rather they build a class so that it can have two jobs. This way the base class is a flexible thing capable of moving between two different roles as needed whereas the job specializes it in one role.Quote:
Originally Posted by syntaxlies
Sometimes, you need your prime DD to trip over to Tank because something happened (I still remember that Nael fight when our Paladin went down, I was Dragoon, top scoring in DPS there, I got all hate. I seamlessly transitioned into tank role, dropped all of my mitigation skills (the pgl dodge one, dread spikes, used an Elixir, moved about to dodge a couple of moves) and held the fight long enough for them to finish the first phase (if the fight DID take like, 30s longer i'd have died and we wiped, but...). If it was possible for CLASSES to do that as part of the design and then Jobs to over-specialize to avoid that but increase power it'd be just great. -
11-30-2012, 03:58 AMShadow_Sama^This, a thousand times this.Quote:
Originally Posted by syntaxlies
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11-30-2012, 04:28 AMyoshikwalla
Well, the Job system isn't technically its own system... it's an extension of the Class system. I don't really see a problem, to be honest. As long as the Class system is updated alongside the Job system, then everything will be hunky-dory.
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11-30-2012, 04:30 AMThebard
I wonder how things will look in a few weeks when beta begins?
One massive whine fest, thats how it will look.
I sware if anyone says something along the lines of "change it back to how it was in 1.00".... -
11-30-2012, 04:31 AMSkies
yoshikwalla, you understand the truth behind the systems
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11-30-2012, 05:34 AMZoloe
Anyone ever play Ragnarok Online? Two jobs from one isn't exactly a new or unheard of thing. :P