Endgame content is too stressfull and difficult

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

Let me try a different approach here.

Normal Raid/Trial = A forgivable window for learning telegraphed mechanics and ample opportunity to recover from mistakes.

Savage Raid/Ex Trial = A hidden list of hundreds of actions that must be performed in precise order and with perfect positioning. Any mistake by any player results in failure and starting over from the beginning.

I really don't see where I'm wrong for thinking this is too much of a brick wall. It doesn't feel like difficulty, it feels like psychotic fake difficulty.

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You are not wrong, but I don't think problem is Savages. Those are here for engame raiders.
Problem is, that there is nothing IN BETWEEN normals and savages (Ex-trial once in blue moon doesn't count).

There is no content for casual raiders so to speak, no hero dungeons, no nothing.
Its either storymode snoozefest or zen-memory game in Savage.

SE seems to ignore substantial part of PVE playerbase, instead shovering them with various types of farming or metagaming in "different world" (Eureka, endless dungs).
How they never looked at heroic dungeons after 6 years of operation is.. puzzling to say the least.

But they are fixing vanila storytelling - which was so atrocious for so long - so maybe next step can be looking at this (wishful thinking 101).

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Originally Posted by RylaBee

You are not wrong, but I don't think problem is Savages. Those are here for engame raiders.
Problem is, that there is nothing IN BETWEEN normals and savages (Ex-trial once in blue moon doesn't count).

There is no content for casual raiders so to speak, no hero dungeons, no nothing.
Its either storymode snoozefest or zen-memory game in Savage.

SE seems to ignore substantial part of PVE playerbase, instead shovering them with various types of farming or metagaming in "different world" (Eureka, endless dungs).
How they never looked at heroic dungeons after 6 years of operation is.. puzzling to say the least.

But they are fixing vanila storytelling - which was so atrocious for so long - so maybe next step can be looking at this (wishful thinking 101).

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A lack of measured progression really hurts the end game and seeing Squeenix take the opportunity to address that would be very nice.

Sadly they seem to be more interested in catering to the people who scream "GIT GUD!" in my face. >_>

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Originally Posted by RylaBee

You are not wrong, but I don't think problem is Savages. Those are here for engame raiders.
Problem is, that there is nothing IN BETWEEN normals and savages (Ex-trial once in blue moon doesn't count).

There is no content for casual raiders so to speak, no hero dungeons, no nothing.
Its either storymode snoozefest or zen-memory game in Savage.

SE seems to ignore substantial part of PVE playerbase, instead shovering them with various types of farming or metagaming in "different world" (Eureka, endless dungs).
How they never looked at heroic dungeons after 6 years of operation is.. puzzling to say the least.

But they are fixing vanila storytelling - which was so atrocious for so long - so maybe next step can be looking at this (wishful thinking 101).

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While I agree, SE needs to add more endgame content as a whole. A significant reason they've held back is not knowing how to adequately reward said content. Granted, it's on them for making gear such a rigid and boring affair but they aren't going to overhaul it now. So how do you reward Mythic+ type dungeons? If they also drop Savage equivalent then it renders Savage pointless. Why do something harder for an identical reward? The same applies if said gear were equivalent to Normal mode. Now you could go with increments of five—which they technically did with the relic armor. But that severely impacts crafting.

All in all, they need more options to get people to try out this harder content. Unfortunately, the current gear system has painted them into a corner. Something will inevitably lose out to compensate.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

A significant reason they've held back is not knowing how to adequately reward said content. Granted, it's on them for making gear such a rigid and boring affair but they aren't going to overhaul it now. So how do you reward Mythic+ type dungeons?

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Yes the itemization is rigid, but I dont realy see rewards as much problem.

You just give some alternate currency and use it for stuff like tomestone upgrade items, pets, glams, mounts, orchestrions. They dont even need to be all new items. Some can be from previous expansions - just like we are getting for those moogle tomestones.
I think rewards are not blocker for heroic dungeons/raids, its more the fact that it would require some significant resources to develop/polish. Resources that are not spend for Eureka-style content and similar.

PS: Hell, maybe even resources that are now not used at all. This game has huge playerbase on pay-to-play system. I don't realy feel much funds it is pushed back to improve the game. Feels like upkeep, sorry..

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Originally Posted by RylaBee

Yes the itemization is rigid, but I dont realy see rewards as much problem.

You just give some alternate currency and use it for stuff like tomestone upgrade items, pets, glams, mounts, orchestrions. They dont even need to be all new items. Some can be from previous expansions - just like we are getting for those moogle tomestones.
I think rewards are not blocker for heroic dungeons/raids, its more the fact that it would require some significant resources to develop/polish. Resources that are not spend for Eureka-style content and similar.

PS: Hell, maybe even resources that are now not used at all. This game has huge playerbase on pay-to-play system. I don't realy feel much funds it is pushed back to improve the game. Feels like upkeep, sorry..

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the problem is if the carrot being dangled isn't enticing enough it will be dead content on arrival.

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Originally Posted by JamieRose

A lack of measured progression really hurts the end game and seeing Squeenix take the opportunity to address that would be very nice.

Sadly they seem to be more interested in catering to the people who scream "GIT GUD!" in my face. >_>

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They "cater" to these players because you really do have to get good..? lol (it can also be argued that the devs already cater to casual players but... that's a whole separate topic). A fair amount of players need to "git gud" in savage since there are still a surprising amount of players that queue in with little to no understanding on their job or role. There's a minimum skill bar to do Savage content. If you don't meet the bar... sorry man. There are plenty of ways to level up your play (simple practice (either in fights or practice dummies), looking up guides, etc) and if you either can't or simply *don't want to* get better, there's plenty of content for you to do that isn't savage.

Savage is designed for players that have a sturdy understanding on their jobs and can play mechanically better than the average player base, that's just how it is. It's not designed for everyone, even though they made it very accessible this expansion. Don't ruin savage just because *you* have a hard time doing it. PF is not an accurate representation for savage because you get people of varying skill levels and occasionally players that simply WANT to be carried. If you want to do savage and actually intend to get through it I highly recommend finding a static or at least a premade group of around 4-5 players.

Secondly... lack of measured progression? You learn to do one mechanic, start doing it consistently, then start working on the next. You can easily measure your progression..

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Originally Posted by DrWho2010

the problem is if the carrot being dangled isn't enticing enough it will be dead content on arrival.

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Clearly there is chunk of playerbase that doesnt feel like Savage and is totaly bored with storymode.
So what are you basing your "dead on arrival" on? On the fact that YOU would not be interested?

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Originally Posted by RylaBee

Clearly there is chunk of playerbase that doesnt feel like Savage and is totaly bored with storymode.
So what are you basing your "dead on arrival" on? On the fact that YOU would not be interested?

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I agree with him.

If Savage dungeons dropped tomestones, moogle tome equivalents, current crafted gear equivalent, glams or old items, I would rarely go near them. I want a Mythic+ system, but from experience if the reward isn't enticing people will run them less often, you'll struggle to get groups and it just won't feel worth it long term for the effort. In other words it'll die out. Look at BLU as an example. It's interesting and there's a Morbol mount, but old allied seals and one mount for a lot of effort isn't enticing.
Their gear system is very rigid. Crafted/Normal 8 man gear is good enough for almost everything, even the first few Savage bosses and extremely easy to get. Then there's Savage/high tome gear. There's no room for an in-between, no use for anything worse and anything equal to Savage invalidates it. We don't need tomes either, they rain from the sky.

WoW pulled it off because they had a very different gear system. FF14 could probably only pull it off either by adding gear almost at Savage level (495 for example) which is very debatable, or by adding significant new mount/glam/minion rewards and updating them which eats resources. It's a delicate one to figure out.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

I agree with him.

If Savage dungeons dropped tomestones, moogle tome equivalents, current crafted gear equivalent, glams or old items, I would rarely go near them. I want a Mythic+ system, but from experience if the reward isn't enticing people will run them less often, you'll struggle to get groups and it just won't feel worth it long term for the effort. In other words it'll die out. Look at BLU as an example. It's interesting and there's a Morbol mount, but old allied seals and one mount for a lot of effort isn't enticing.
Their gear system is very rigid. Crafted/Normal 8 man gear is good enough for almost everything, even the first few Savage bosses and extremely easy to get. Then there's Savage/high tome gear. There's no room for an in-between, no use for anything worse and anything equal to Savage invalidates it. We don't need tomes either, they rain from the sky.

WoW pulled it off because they had a very different gear system. FF14 could probably only pull it off either by adding gear almost at Savage level (495 for example) which is very debatable, or by adding significant new mount/glam/minion rewards and updating them which eats resources. It's a delicate one to figure out.

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One area they could maybe afford to infringe on is the i490 gear. Stop handing out essentially free upgraded crafting gear and make it so Mythic+ dungeons dropped i490 gear that could be upgraded to i495. If they really wanted to push the envelop, they could potentially tie a reward from these upscaled dungeons to Savage, thus allowing i500 drops. Frankly, tome gear being so readily available really shot them in the foot. It also doesn't help sub-stats are equally rigid. Crit + whatever is pretty much the answer.

This is definitely one aspect of 6.0 they really ought to look into, especially if they are considered the rumored stat crunch. But yeah, I think even they're finding out you can only toss in minions and mounts for so long before people stop caring.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

This is definitely one aspect of 6.0 they really ought to look into, especially if they are considered the rumored stat crunch.

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Mind elaborating on this? or at least sharing a link? I personally haven't heard anything about this.