Ways to fix BRD and MCH in a realistic way

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Stop posting in a thread about a class you clearly have no clue about.

I find it interesting the most verbal opponents yet most ignorant of the class in these threads tends to mostly come from people who claim to know the class despite not even having a capped bard themselves. The amount of fear mongering about possible changes by those of other classes stinks of wanting to screw over this class or machinist to make themselves look better in group composition or plain old ignorance.

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so just like the others instead of actually having a discussion the only thing you have to refute my arguments is nu huh you aren't lvl 60 like me. seriously?

there is no fear mongering. bards lack dps due to the giant role they play in raids. one that no other job can replace.

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Originally Posted by Eirwen

Do you see how stupid this sounds? It's how you sound.

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oh to exaggerations now huh? come on guys graspin straws now?

bards job is not to keep up with everyone else in dps it's why it's lower.

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Originally Posted by emmgee

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A 5% increase, huh? That IS a very significant loss if you look at it that way. Thanks for clarifying this.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

snip and nuder

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Musa, I see your highest is a PLD60.

You have 1 thing going for you and that is to keep the mobs on you.
Don't you dare lose a single one out of your grasp.

You're not a healer.
You're not a buffer.
You're not a DPS.

Forget about using the Rage of Halone combo because by the time you get there, you've lost a mob from the pull because of how weak your hits are.
Stick to your Flash and Circle of Scorn and then cry to any Bard near you for Mage's Ballad.

Also don't stun anything. Leave that to the DPS.

Do you see how stupid this sounds? It's how you sound.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Stop posting in a thread about a class you clearly have no clue about.

I find it interesting the most verbal opponents yet most ignorant of the class in these threads tends to mostly come from people who claim to know the class despite not even having a capped bard themselves. The amount of fear mongering about possible changes by those of other classes stinks of wanting to screw over this class or machinist to make themselves look better in group composition or plain old ignorance.

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We all have the ability to have multiple characters, just because some posters don't have bard max'd on their current characters shown on forums doesn't imply that they don't have other characters who is a bard that is leveled. Someone in a different thread proved this same situation to someone else who literally didn't even notice they were replying to the same person after the character shown was switched over.

and I'm not using this as a defense for any certain poster, I've just seen this done through the span of this topic and it's really just a baseless insult to those who probably just aren't showing off their bard characters.

I show my character as bard because this is my main but I do have other characters myself on different servers which are different jobs in order to be with friends.

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Originally Posted by Lillia

We all have the ability to have multiple characters, just because some posters don't have bard max'd on their current characters shown on forums doesn't imply that they don't have other characters who is a bard that is leveled. Someone in a different thread proved this same situation to someone else who literally didn't even notice they were replying to the same person after the character shown was switched over.

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Which would be fair enough if I had used only his current character class shown as the sole reason why I said what I did but I also took into account what he was saying as evidence alongside his current character shown as to his inexperience with playing the bard class within high level content and showing an apparent lack of full practical knowledge of the skills, trial and tribulations of the class at capped level in such content.

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Originally Posted by Musashidon

you can still deal damage without moving. blm's do it just fine. you can too.

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The difference being - look at the dps differences. WM does not increase DPS essentially is half the damn point. There are many people in this thread who aren't complaining about mobility - they're complaining about the fact that when they give up said mobility they get nothing out of it except continued substandard dps...

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Originally Posted by Intellion

You're... not even reading my posts, are you?

Yeah, should've known. Sigh.

Moving on.

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Yeah youre both wrong. There is no support role, nor is there a "mobility" role ... seriously? Every DPS has to move at one point or another and a lot of them can even attack while moving (kite). Albeit to a lesser degree. Are you afraid that we'll suddenly be unable to avoid AoE's? Lets get one thing straight, its only SOME Bards who are suddenly crying foul over mobility. Plenty of us just want our DPS brought into par with the rest of the classes so we'll stop getting kicked before the first pull. With, or without the ability to avoid AoE's in ez-mode.

I for one am glad theyre finally getting Bards settled into their role. Up to now we were some half-assed buffing class with crap DPS to balance out our "mobility." We were so screwed up we even had an LB heal! WTF is that? No, we're DPS and DPS should be priority when designing this job going forward. Our so called support is 'meh', replaceable, and not even necessary most of the time. Mobility isnt even a role or a practical contribution to a group. Its a personal playstyle perk (at best) thats had us gimped on DPS since ARR. Enough is enough, we got our DPS LB, finally, now our damage output should follow suit.

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Originally Posted by Snugglebutt

Which would be fair enough if I had used only his current character class shown as the sole reason why I said what I did but I also took into account what he was saying as evidence alongside his current character shown as to his inexperience with playing the bard class within high level content and showing an apparent lack of full practical knowledge of the skills, trial and tribulations of the class at capped level in such content.

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Honestly I've been kind of ignoring him but.... from the last post.... urm... what exactly is wrong with it? We are lower and as a whole we shouldn't be doing more damage when not in WM with all the stuff we can do... I do want WM to be buffed but.... even if he is trolling I just don't see it.

In raids tanks will always run out of TP and if a ninja goads a tank then they can't goad themselves meaning that we will always need to regen a TP though bard's dps may be a problem, as someone pointed out to me in the other bard thread... others are losing as much dps with down time if there is TP issues period.

Our weapon damage is screwed compared to others not that it's much of a change from before though I'd like it looked at if WM isn't fixed dmg wise... I mean... I just don't see it?

Meanwhile Intellion and Lewt have literally.... no argument no offense. Intel is arguing how our biggest advantage is movement in raids and why we are taken vs our usefulness in song while Lewt literally just contradicted themselves in their last post by saying Musa said bards should do as much DPS as other DPS... while they were saying the whole movement and DPS argument the whole time when so far I don't see that argument being done by him this whole time, more like hes arguing song vs mobility with Intel and why others take us...

I'm a i179 BRD and just got MCH to 53 yesterday. While I agree that BRD needs subtle tweaks, I also realize that most people who are complaining either don't have BRD to 60, they don't have i179 gear, they don't know their rotation, or they don't know how to adapt to fights. When I first entered Bismark Extreme, we couldn't make the DPS check. I tweaked my adaptation to the fight and the second time I went in, we got past it (Yes, it was an entirely different group, but overall iLvl was lower.). You just need to know when to pop songs and when to turn off WM. I think SE's intent of WM was to be situational. I agree that the time it takes to cast is annoying and once it's originally cancelled, it probably isn't worth casting again. This is being looked into by SE and hopefully will be fixed (looks promising). I also agree that they need a slight damage boost overall, but besides that if you meet requirements of the 4 points above, your DPS should be good for a support role.

Now as far as MCH goes, once I got my lvl 52 quest ability last night, I'm kind of disappointed. I didn't know much about MCH before leveling it up a few days ago, but it really is just a BRD with guns now after getting Gauss Barrel. I mean, why did they have to give them a Wanderer's Minuet clone? I believe they should fix this a bit and make them a little more unique as their job was up until 52. Besides that, I can't really comment much on MCH end game.

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Originally Posted by ckc22

The difference being - look at the dps differences. WM does not increase DPS essentially is half the damn point. There are many people in this thread who aren't complaining about mobility - they're complaining about the fact that when they give up said mobility they get nothing out of it except continued substandard dps...

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True, I do not personally mind giving up 'some' mobility for an increase in DPS output but the fact is not only are half the skills we gained from 3.0 highly flawed and badly implemented but also the class has not been scaled correctly and needs a re-evaluation and fixing plus a slight DPS increase through either WD, potency or lowering of skill use cast timers as examples while under WM. We do not need to be equal to the DPS output of some other DPS classes but we sure as hell need an increase to what we have right now in order to be little closer to theirs than we currently are. The rise of bards and machinists being kicked from high end group content, locked out of even joining such content or being insulted not based on their skill at playing the class but merely for playing the class itself is becoming very worrisome.

We need some major fixes to some of the current skills and some minor fixes to the DPS output, machinist are in an even worse position but both ranged physical DPS classes are in need of fixing.

I liken the current state of bards and machinists to that of what SMN and DRG used to be, 3.0 fixed those classes in a big way which is why you almost never see much in the way of complaint threads about them anymore unlike how often would see them in the past when the classes were in a bad position like the ranged physical ones are right now. I am just hoping it does not take SE as long to fix our classes as did SMN and DRG. I find it a little annoying also when a DRG for example which I have seen happen comes in to have a go at bards asking the class to be fixed when prior to 3.0 many DRG's were doing the same thing in asking theirs to be fixed...how quickly some people change their tune when it is no longer their class which needs fixing.