Dark Knight Megathread

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

War's core identity has become to be the best at everything i guess.

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uhh its been that way since 2.1.

Its just crazy to me how badly balanced War is compared to other tanks. The damage is now also the same or very similar, however their defensives are not the same.
Looking at general tank situations for damage you always find yourself in one of these situations:
- auto attack damage: at which warrior is arguably king with Bloodwhetting.
- one big hit: at which warrior is king again unless the hit is magical in which case DRK has a slight advantage
- several smaller hits: at which warrior is again king due to Thrill and Equilibrium and Bloodwhetting.
- you need to invuln? Warrior beacause holmgang's cooldown is the shortest and you have tools to heal yourself back to full very easily.

Just look at the amount of situations I listed and you will realize Warrior is incredibly busted, while DRK kind of lacks behind in mostly every department, I'd even say even now in terms of party mitigation you can buff shake it off to be a 21% YOUR maximum HP on each party member for any type of damage, and a heal and a regen, compared to a 10% magical for 15 seconds, which is only better for consecutive hits in a short amount of time.

What can a DRK do against boss auto attacks? Nothing, sacrifice an important cooldown like Rampart or pray TBN breaks.
What can DRK do if it lost HP from any source and the healers are busy AoE healing the party? Nothing.
What can DRK do against non magical damage that hits hard? Not a lot, you may survive sure, but Warrior does it much much better.
What can DRK do against consecutive non magical attacks? Same as above, you will probably live, but Warrior does it much much better and easier, which means less healer attentions which means more desirable.

I ain't saying every job should be Warrior level of self sustain, but maybe add new abilities that solve some of these issues while playing to a job's identity and core?
-> Salted earth can grant a regen if you step in it once, and the regen effect lingers on you, salt and darkness heals you.
-> Dark Arts could heal you

Don't copy paste Warrior design to DRK, Delirium is already messed up as it is an Inner Release copy. At least making it a combo can grant unique animations.

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Originally Posted by ItsUrBoi

Its just crazy to me how badly balanced War is compared to other tanks. The damage is now also the same or very similar, however their defensives are not the same.
Looking at general tank situations for damage you always find yourself in one of these situations:
- auto attack damage: at which warrior is arguably king with Bloodwhetting.
- one big hit: at which warrior is king again unless the hit is magical in which case DRK has a slight advantage
- several smaller hits: at which warrior is again king due to Thrill and Equilibrium and Bloodwhetting.
- you need to invuln? Warrior beacause holmgang's cooldown is the shortest and you have tools to heal yourself back to full very easily.

Just look at the amount of situations I listed and you will realize Warrior is incredibly busted, while DRK kind of lacks behind in mostly every department, I'd even say even now in terms of party mitigation you can buff shake it off to be a 21% YOUR maximum HP on each party member for any type of damage, and a heal and a regen, compared to a 10% magical for 15 seconds, which is only better for consecutive hits in a short amount of time.

What can a DRK do against boss auto attacks? Nothing, sacrifice an important cooldown like Rampart or pray TBN breaks.
What can DRK do if it lost HP from any source and the healers are busy AoE healing the party? Nothing.
What can DRK do against non magical damage that hits hard? Not a lot, you may survive sure, but Warrior does it much much better.
What can DRK do against consecutive non magical attacks? Same as above, you will probably live, but Warrior does it much much better and easier, which means less healer attentions which means more desirable.

I ain't saying every job should be Warrior level of self sustain, but maybe add new abilities that solve some of these issues while playing to a job's identity and core?
-> Salted earth can grant a regen if you step in it once, and the regen effect lingers on you, salt and darkness heals you.
-> Dark Arts could heal you

Don't copy paste Warrior design to DRK, Delirium is already messed up as it is an Inner Release copy. At least making it a combo can grant unique animations.

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To return to DRK feedback and discussion, I brought this post a bit over a month ago. It contains an immensely reworked DRK up to level 90, and two variants of it (one with and without Blood Gauge):
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...28with-link%29

Both version have better sustain, low level mit, and it's own combat identity again. It's to bring the feeling of old Dark Knight while fitting it to the modern XIV. I'm still open to feedback on it, if anyone wants to provide their thoughts. I do believe these could use some refinement, but I'll need input or flat out suggestions.

If you just want to see them and provide your thoughts here, here are the links. I would highly suggest reading my OP in the thread though, it does contain details on them and what changes have been made.

Blood Gauge version:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...fsW06Fu4I/edit

Dark Descent version:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...fsf51NfBg/edit

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Originally Posted by Zairava

To return to DRK feedback and discussion, I brought this post a bit over a month ago. It contains an immensely reworked DRK up to level 90, and two variants of it (one with and without Blood Gauge):
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...28with-link%29

Both version have better sustain, low level mit, and it's own combat identity again. It's to bring the feeling of old Dark Knight while fitting it to the modern XIV. I'm still open to feedback on it, if anyone wants to provide their thoughts. I do believe these could use some refinement, but I'll need input or flat out suggestions.

If you just want to see them and provide your thoughts here, here are the links. I would highly suggest reading my OP in the thread though, it does contain details on them and what changes have been made.

Blood Gauge version:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...fsW06Fu4I/edit

Dark Descent version:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...fsf51NfBg/edit

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Many of the other suggestions (if not all of them) that I've seen do not address the boring GCD rotation for below level 50 which is where you PROBABLY want players to stay interested in if you plan making old content still relevant, and instead having unnecessary slogs to get a new weaponskill/spell/ability/trait, which even IF Dark Knight got its Blood Gauge abilities to below level 50, it would only change how Dark Knight is played in below 50 content SLIGHTLY, Similar to how Warrior gets their Beast Gauge below level 50 but have the benefit of having 5 total GCDs to work with instead of 3 or 4.

And the GCD is the ONE game mechanic that is MANDATORY to interact with to actually clear content on Extreme/Savage/Ultimate fights, and the last thing you want to do is make players bored of your game because the gameplay doesn't look cool enough...

But the devs want Dark Knight GCD rotation to be as boring as ARR Paladin for the rest of the games lifespan for some unknown reason, even though people still complain about ARR Paladin GCD Rotation being boring...

So old content is an issue because it's boring if you're gimped via level sync or trying to actually progress through the story at your own pace from scratch...

And even IF level sync was re-worked to no longer gimp players syncing down, new players would just be justified to buy progression skip items just to actually have fun with job they have selected to main, which is different discussion altogether.

If we fix the boring GCD issue for ALL jobs and classes that A Realm Reborn content has for both new and free trial players and fix the level sync gimping players syncing down issue, players would probably be less likely(albeit not by much because A Realm Reborn story is pretty boring and doesn't pick up the pace until starting Heavensward prologue at EXACLTY level 50) to buy progression skip items for their main to steam but in exchange be more including them to skip MOST of the leveling for other jobs that require the exact same amount of grinding that just so happen to pique their interest.

At least that's what I would do if I was an MMORPG developer that wanted to keep player retention that also wanted players to go play other games if they wanted to take a break form said MMORPG, and it is risky but it MIGHT pay off in the long term, just look at FF11 which is surprising how that game's servers are still functioning and running, which also has fan made Private servers of how the game was before the nerfs, something that FF14 doesn't even have.

Why not have DRK have more branching combos, or even fluid ones like monk, have some fun with that and choose which GCD you use for your 3 hit based on what you need at the time (MP, blood, damage, other ressource for ogcds)

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

Why not have DRK have more branching combos, or even fluid ones like monk, have some fun with that and choose which GCD you use for your 3 hit based on what you need at the time (MP, blood, damage, other ressource for ogcds)

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Because it will never amount to anything. War mains will cry if their 123 medic tank does even 1% less damage than the selfish burst focussed tank with no utility and the least sustain. Tanks can not be fun and rewarding to play as long as we're competing with the streamer tank of choice.

Boy the Warrior hate is almost as mindless as the state of healing at this point. Either make fun of them because they deserve it or make fun of them because they have a good patch after a few not so fun patches.

How about instead we indeed get the other tanks up to snuff. Dark Knight very much could do with more self sustain, all the magical defensives being converted into full defensives because Dark Knight doesn't need to be the "magic defense" tank in a game where every tank can mitigate all damage. Lean more into their identity of leaning into MP to go ham with offense and defense, and get some more life leech as they drain the blood of their enemies. While were at it, give Dark Knight some extra GCD combos. I remember when they had more than one combo chain and it was a nice time.

Advocating for constant nerfs to something just because it's popular to hate on it is just asking for an argument where it isn't needed. Buff the others up so everyone can be happy enjoying good tanks. Wouldn't that be some good food for thought, because I would love for the job design to be better balanced overall so everyone can have a good time with their job and not feel sad.

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Originally Posted by MikoRemi

Boy the Warrior hate is almost as mindless as the state of healing at this point. Either make fun of them because they deserve it or make fun of them because they have a good patch after a few not so fun patches.

How about instead we indeed get the other tanks up to snuff. Dark Knight very much could do with more self sustain, all the magical defensives being converted into full defensives because Dark Knight doesn't need to be the "magic defense" tank in a game where every tank can mitigate all damage. Lean more into their identity of leaning into MP to go ham with offense and defense, and get some more life leech as they drain the blood of their enemies. While were at it, give Dark Knight some extra GCD combos. I remember when they had more than one combo chain and it was a nice time.

Advocating for constant nerfs to something just because it's popular to hate on it is just asking for an argument where it isn't needed. Buff the others up so everyone can be happy enjoying good tanks. Wouldn't that be some good food for thought, because I would love for the job design to be better balanced overall so everyone can have a good time with their job and not feel sad.

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Because I would rather have NO tanks have the amount of party healing War does, not even War. It's completely unnecessary when we have healers as an actual role. Even it's self-sustain could be toned down a be toned down a bit, to about PLD's level without clemency.

Dark Knight does not desperately need the increased self-sustain people like to say it does. That, and magic defense is one of the few things DRK can say it's better at than the other tanks thanks to Dark Mind, I'd like to not lose that. They can give us a better offensive kit that isn't essentially WAR with extra oGCD's to burst with. IF we get that added self-sustain in the process then I'm not going to complain (especially if we by some miracle get old Abyssal Drain back).

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

Why not have DRK have more branching combos, or even fluid ones like monk, have some fun with that and choose which GCD you use for your 3 hit based on what you need at the time (MP, blood, damage, other ressource for ogcds)

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Would be interesting to see how it works, We have syphon strike as our slotted 2 which is for MP, Souleater could be used for Gauge. Mayhaps Power Slash (or new ability, w/e) could be for more MP, so that we have two choices that both matter and are needed in our kit. Not sure if we'd need a third..but personally I wouldn't mind needing to maintain a DoT or a damage buff on the side.

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Originally Posted by Zairava

Would be interesting to see how it works, We have syphon strike as our slotted 2 which is for MP, Souleater could be used for Gauge. Mayhaps Power Slash (or new ability, w/e) could be for more MP, so that we have two choices that both matter and are needed in our kit. Not sure if we'd need a third..but personally I wouldn't mind needing to maintain a DoT or a damage buff on the side.

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Could have one that spends Darkside so you'd use that one to avoid overcapping when your MP and DS are high

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

Could have one that spends Darkside so you'd use that one to avoid overcapping when your MP and DS are high

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It's been mentioned in another thread that we could use Darkside as a resource, yeah. I personally am fond of the idea of giving something akin to Death Strike on World of Warcraft for us to spend Darkside on. (instead of pooled damage we've taken, though, the damage dealt and potency of healing would depend on the amount of Darkside consumed to use it). That would give us some form of sustain on demand if we make it its own standalone GCD.

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Originally Posted by MikoRemi

Boy the Warrior hate is almost as mindless as the state of healing at this point. Either make fun of them because they deserve it or make fun of them because they have a good patch after a few not so fun patches.

How about instead we indeed get the other tanks up to snuff. Dark Knight very much could do with more self sustain, all the magical defensives being converted into full defensives because Dark Knight doesn't need to be the "magic defense" tank in a game where every tank can mitigate all damage. Lean more into their identity of leaning into MP to go ham with offense and defense, and get some more life leech as they drain the blood of their enemies. While were at it, give Dark Knight some extra GCD combos. I remember when they had more than one combo chain and it was a nice time.

Advocating for constant nerfs to something just because it's popular to hate on it is just asking for an argument where it isn't needed. Buff the others up so everyone can be happy enjoying good tanks. Wouldn't that be some good food for thought, because I would love for the job design to be better balanced overall so everyone can have a good time with their job and not feel sad.

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Warrior should not be setting a new standard with the ridiculous gamebreaking amount of sustain that they have. We have healers for a reason.
The tank imbalance is mostly just War being so far ahead of the others. It was balanced when War had downsides in the form of slightly lower dps to counterbalance the sustain and utility. But yall didn't want balance.

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Originally Posted by MikoRemi

Buff the others up so everyone can be happy enjoying good tanks

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And that is how, through power creep, you not only get nerfed content and disproportion within each tank's kits (percentile sustain feeling increasingly less valuable except where uniquely preventing OHKOs, making their kits feel increasingly lop-sided or outright jank), but also role imbalance that makes healers, especially, feel like crap to play.

If there is an outlier, unless its direction would also improve the contexts of that role, it should simply be trimmed back or balanced more holistically (e.g., accounting for any healer GCDs saved and raid-positional opportunities afforded by taking the high-sustain-but-faintly-lower-damage tank over the lower-sustain-but-faintly-higher-damage tank). You shouldn't then just increase everything else to the outputs/affordances of that outlier.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Warrior should not be setting a new standard with the ridiculous gamebreaking amount of sustain that they have. We have healers for a reason.
The tank imbalance is mostly just War being so far ahead of the others. It was balanced when War had downsides in the form of slightly lower dps to counterbalance the sustain and utility. But yall didn't want balance.

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Healers could be more useful in the higher end content where not even Warrior level of healing can save them. Can you tell me the last time tanks learned how to LB3 to remove doom in Ultima Weapon's Refrain? I sure don't. I don't remember the last time Warrior's knew esuna either.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And that is how, through power creep, you not only get nerfed content and disproportion within each tank's kits (percentile sustain feeling increasingly less valuable except where uniquely preventing OHKOs, making their kits feel increasingly lop-sided or outright jank), but also role imbalance that makes healers, especially, feel like crap to play.

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Or just boost the content and the other jobs to match the content instead of simply assuming content will be nerfed for the sake of it? Healers in general need their own kind of rework but I'm no healer so I wouldn't speak for them. A good start is focusing on more cleanses but not making it so obnoxious given Esuna is a GCD and all, but it's something they have that they can use freely. Unless you want to bring in a full party of Bards.

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Originally Posted by Zairava

Because I would rather have NO tanks have the amount of party healing War does, not even War. It's completely unnecessary when we have healers as an actual role. Even it's self-sustain could be toned down a be toned down a bit, to about PLD's level without clemency.

Dark Knight does not desperately need the increased self-sustain people like to say it does. That, and magic defense is one of the few things DRK can say it's better at than the other tanks thanks to Dark Mind, I'd like to not lose that. They can give us a better offensive kit that isn't essentially WAR with extra oGCD's to burst with. IF we get that added self-sustain in the process then I'm not going to complain (especially if we by some miracle get old Abyssal Drain back).

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Ok and I find it cool to have that sustain to make comebacks in case healers end up eating the dust. It's more of a shame that Paladin and Warrior are the only ones with good amounts of healing. Dark Knight could use it, it used to have Abyssal Drain usable via MP and while Dark Arts was pretty whatever to use, it did boost the effectiveness quite a bit. Sure you can say the boost to magic defense is great but then again, every tank can just mitigate all damage, it doesn't even really do it that much better. Why stick for something less just for the sake of identity. It used to have a old Living Dead and it sure set itself apart from other invulns by being absolutely awful, but that got fixed to be much much better now. Yes I would rather it not try to be Warrior in terms of execution, that's just a weird thing they did that they obviously didn't do with Paladin or Gunbreaker.

But hey, if people wanna run in circles and say how horrible Warrior is for their fates, so be it.

I kinda view it as problems that compound on eachother, DRK doesn't need more sustain in raids.
But what if you're not in a raid?
And what if the content you're in doesn't break TBN?
And what if that damage you're taking isn't magic based, and what if thats below lv 82 so you don't even have Oblation?

Thats where DRK feels the shittiest to me. But now that we're in a world where tanks can do more damage and have higher sustain and utility,
I see no real reason to play this back and forth anymore. DRK having sustain wouldn't be a big deal. Its also pretty much completely unprecedented to see them actually care to nerf something instead of play catch up.

Gonna quote myself from different thread with random idea I had:

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Originally Posted by Oizen

I think DRK could be tied together nicely if it had a GCD that consumed all accumulated darkside and did damage/provided healing based on how much was consumed. Give it a 30s CD and it gives you something to do between bursts, gives the job the much needed healing its missing, and makes darkside a real resource that you'd care about overcapping.

Maybe throw some of those cool PVP features of Salted earth into PVE.
I really don't think the job is that far off, and between the two I view it as the more fun version of WAR. Its just it never really gets the attention or push it needs to make it feel complete.

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If I were to try to fix DRK's core issues with 1 skill thats how I'd do it, and I'd probably aim it as a rework to Abyssal Drain rather than adding a new skill so its present earlier in the kit.
Gives the job something to do outside of bursts, gives it the healing it doesnt have, gives darkside a purpose. Doesn't change too much of the job outside of that.

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Originally Posted by MikoRemi

Or just boost the content and the other jobs to match the content instead of simply assuming content will be nerfed for the sake of it?

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I'm not assuming that content would be actively nerfed "for the sake of it". Increasing players' power available at a given ilvl, such as by buffing an entire role's capacities up to that of its best in role in each, inherently reduces the difficulty of content. The difficulty of output needs is relative to output available.

And even boosting the content difficulty doesn't fix the problem you've then caused in balance between roles. While the increased sustain requirements may still reach the same difficulty in sum as before, the portions of contribution will have shifted to make healers that much more irrelevant.

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Originally Posted by MikoRemi

Healers could be more useful in the higher end content where not even Warrior level of healing can save them. Can you tell me the last time tanks learned how to LB3 to remove doom in Ultima Weapon's Refrain? I sure don't. I don't remember the last time Warrior's knew esuna either.



Or just boost the content and the other jobs to match the content instead of simply assuming content will be nerfed for the sake of it? Healers in general need their own kind of rework but I'm no healer so I wouldn't speak for them. A good start is focusing on more cleanses but not making it so obnoxious given Esuna is a GCD and all, but it's something they have that they can use freely. Unless you want to bring in a full party of Bards.

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So you think we should just put doom in every fight as a shoehorn fix to tank sustain running completely out of hand? Nah, you were given lower damage in exchange for ridiculous sustain and utility but you didn't want balance. Warrior mains wanted our damage, so now it's time to give up your sustain and utility so that you're on even grounds with us in that regard as well. This is the homogenisation you were asking for. War mains wanted to become Dark knight but with a simpler rotation and a better overall kit. Don't shy away from the downsides that come with that damage. It is time to accept the consequences of homogenisation. Endless powercreep will just break the game.

Bold of you to strawman every warrior in such a way, shows where the priorities are.

It's funny you mention Doom though, especially lately in dungeons its been appearing more often for failed mechanics than before such as in The Fell Court of Troia, Lapis Manalis, and The Lunar Subterrane, so they're already planning along that route anyway, you can be the strongest Warrior ever and Doom will still kill you, and that's fine because it gives healers and even Bard a chance to shine.

If you hate Warrior so much, that's on you but personally coming from many different MMO's, just asking for constant nerfs to other classes solely because you hate them just leads to other people not really caring for your own class or ideas and leads to people being unhappy in general. I'd rather other classes such as Dark Knight get changes that make them better overall since I've played Dark Knight alongside just about every job in the game(not counting Scholar, personal preference), and I'm not satisfied with what it could be. I guess it doesn't matter though, you'd rather see the real old Warrior's that couldn't even main tank back in the old days of ARR from your general attitude.

Everyone likes their classes to be fun and interesting, and it'd be nice to band together over that rather than try to put one over the other just because the balance is skewing towards the other end. Be surprised, a Warrior main wants every job to be satisfied rather than your interpretation of us wanting to be the best in spite of other jobs.

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Originally Posted by MikoRemi

Bold of you to strawman every warrior in such a way, shows where the priorities are.

It's funny you mention Doom though, especially lately in dungeons its been appearing more often for failed mechanics than before such as in The Fell Court of Troia, Lapis Manalis, and The Lunar Subterrane, so they're already planning along that route anyway, you can be the strongest Warrior ever and Doom will still kill you, and that's fine because it gives healers and even Bard a chance to shine.

If you hate Warrior so much, that's on you but personally coming from many different MMO's, just asking for constant nerfs to other classes solely because you hate them just leads to other people not really caring for your own class or ideas and leads to people being unhappy in general. I'd rather other classes such as Dark Knight get changes that make them better overall since I've played Dark Knight alongside just about every job in the game(not counting Scholar, personal preference), and I'm not satisfied with what it could be. I guess it doesn't matter though, you'd rather see the real old Warrior's that couldn't even main tank back in the old days of ARR from your general attitude.

Everyone likes their classes to be fun and interesting, and it'd be nice to band together over that rather than try to put one over the other just because the balance is skewing towards the other end. Be surprised, a Warrior main wants every job to be satisfied rather than your interpretation of us wanting to be the best in spite of other jobs.

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I have no interest in bargaining for Drk buffs. Warrior has been buffed a billion times ever since 6.1 and it stopped needing them about 10 patches ago. Warrior just needs nerfs at this point.

Ah yes, nerf Warrior again so they can start at a low point at the beginning of an expansion until it becomes an issue(hello P8S if we want a more recent refresher), only to get buffed due to it being an issue which apparently also becomes an issue when the shoes on the other foot.

If you're already without hope for Dark Knight as a Dark Knight main, I pity you. I would love to see the tanks get closer so we avoid a situation where if you don't pick the good tank you're memeing in high tier content, but I want each tank to remain unique so we don't get any "discount Warrior" situation. I'm not even a main of the class and I would rather hope for that than have any disparity. You already got a Living Dead buff after so long and it's awesome, I want them to keep going with the positive changes.

Give more GCD's so there isn't just a single combo chain, let Dark Knight lean into its mana management so it can become an offensive and defensive powerhouse, lean into that identity of darkness and blood to leech the life and soul of your enemies for sustain, have it mitigate all damage since every other tank does that, even Paladin's block magic since forever ago and it was said that they would only ever be able to block physical. Those are just some of the things that would potentially be cool to see, but I know actual Dark Knight mains could come up with better without throwing other classes into the fire.

As the saying goes; You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. Instead of throwing another job overboard to make your job look better, bring the other jobs closer to it then work on the mechanics from there.

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Originally Posted by MikoRemi

Ah yes, nerf Warrior again so they can start at a low point at the beginning of an expansion until it becomes an issue(hello P8S if we want a more recent refresher), only to get buffed due to it being an issue which apparently also becomes an issue when the shoes on the other foot.

If you're already without hope for Dark Knight as a Dark Knight main, I pity you. I would love to see the tanks get closer so we avoid a situation where if you don't pick the good tank you're memeing in high tier content, but I want each tank to remain unique so we don't get any "discount Warrior" situation. I'm not even a main of the class and I would rather hope for that than have any disparity. You already got a Living Dead buff after so long and it's awesome, I want them to keep going with the positive changes.

Give more GCD's so there isn't just a single combo chain, let Dark Knight lean into its mana management so it can become an offensive and defensive powerhouse, lean into that identity of darkness and blood to leech the life and soul of your enemies for sustain, have it mitigate all damage since every other tank does that, even Paladin's block magic since forever ago and it was said that they would only ever be able to block physical. Those are just some of the things that would potentially be cool to see, but I know actual Dark Knight mains could come up with better without throwing other classes into the fire.

As the saying goes; You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. Instead of throwing another job overboard to make your job look better, bring the other jobs closer to it then work on the mechanics from there.

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Man I really, really don't care about how much damage any tank is doing so long as it can clear the content. The issue is Warrior does literally everything better. All Dark Knight had going for it this expansion was the damage they probably accidentally gave the job, it's not my fault they've been torturing the job and its mains since Shadowbringers. We were forced to lean on that being the only thing we could provide that was better than WAR since we play near identically to it with NONE of the party sustain. WAR's party sustain needs to be nerfed, not its dps. The shield on Shake it off is already more than potent especially considering you can increase how much it shields with your own cooldowns if need be.

It would be a different story right now if they didn't bloody delete the entirety of DRK's combat identity so we actually brought something unique to the table, but alas.

Oh, and unless they make it so that sustain actually requires the slightest bit of brain power I'm not going to be a fan of it. I don't want it to be "press this one button congrats you have free benediction in dungeons", which includes just slapping it onto TBN.

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Originally Posted by MikoRemi

Ah yes, nerf Warrior again so they can start at a low point at the beginning of an expansion until it becomes an issue(hello P8S if we want a more recent refresher), only to get buffed due to it being an issue which apparently also becomes an issue when the shoes on the other foot.

If you're already without hope for Dark Knight as a Dark Knight main, I pity you. I would love to see the tanks get closer so we avoid a situation where if you don't pick the good tank you're memeing in high tier content, but I want each tank to remain unique so we don't get any "discount Warrior" situation. I'm not even a main of the class and I would rather hope for that than have any disparity. You already got a Living Dead buff after so long and it's awesome, I want them to keep going with the positive changes.

Give more GCD's so there isn't just a single combo chain, let Dark Knight lean into its mana management so it can become an offensive and defensive powerhouse, lean into that identity of darkness and blood to leech the life and soul of your enemies for sustain, have it mitigate all damage since every other tank does that, even Paladin's block magic since forever ago and it was said that they would only ever be able to block physical. Those are just some of the things that would potentially be cool to see, but I know actual Dark Knight mains could come up with better without throwing other classes into the fire.

As the saying goes; You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. Instead of throwing another job overboard to make your job look better, bring the other jobs closer to it then work on the mechanics from there.

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P8s was an overtuned mess that also gave the players a buff during the burst that further exacerbated the dps difference. Terrible example.
I don't care for more damage buttons because any additional challenge is rendered pointless thanks to Warrior just doing the same (if not more) dps with a barebones rotation anyways. And we don't need more sustain because of how irrelevant healers are already becoming. Again, i don't care for Drk buffs. Warrior needs nerfs at this point. It's been soloing current content on normal and people are somehow convincing themselves that this is okay. It is a better maintank than the guy with a shield, a better dps than the selfish tank with the least sustain and utility, better healing and shielding than the holy knight and it has the best invuln. Something has to give. We don't need more powercreep. People are already clearing ultimates without healers using Pala/War setups.

Buff after buff after buff. It needs to stop.
You've received so many buffs, don't worry. Warrior will survive a couple nerfs.

I mean its really not helping WAR's case that their skills all read like modern yugioh cards.
Take a drink every time you read "Additional Effect"

And no one is saying to nerf WAR's damage, the thing that made it not brought to p8s (which was nerfed anyway). Keep the damage, I don't care.

The shit that needs to be toned back is Shake it Off Overtime (revert this buff), Nascent and Bloodwhetting. I'd just remove overtime as it was never needed to begin with, make BW/NF only heal per gcd instead of target, and then remove the double dip from NF. If they want to replace it with a (small) direct heal on Nascent instead of constant lifesteal that be fine.

For a while I thought each tank kind of had its gimmick as to how they tanked:
PLD would be raw damage reduction with % and some direct healing through committed ability use (clemency)
DRK with single target shield/tempHP and less versatile but more powerful magic damage mitigation. (and for a time stuff like blind to deal with packs of trash, where shields aren't as useful)
GND seemed to a little bit of everything (getting a bit of heal and shield in its base combo) supporting a fairly sturdy regen.
And WAR with just big lifesteal to soak up the damage back.

But now WAR has like... everything. Big shields, big direct heal, big regen, big damage reduction. All the ways you can reduce damage WAR can do it as well or better than the other tanks.
I always figured WAR would be a tank that works by having a very big HP pool and ways to "shrug it off" either by having regen or effects that increase healing received tremendously or increase their total HP even more.

The Sustain topic is Interesting...

I think it's gotten out of hand with Warrior in particular, obviously one of the "key identity" of warrior was the high sustain (and high hp which is kinda lost), But when warrior has, on par mitigation, the best invul, simple rotation and insane sustain the problem becomes Warrior is just best at everything and isn't hard to pick up.

I personally Don't want buffed sustain like warrior, I think PLD's magic healing is already too much, Holy Shelton is fine, I would prefer a smaller amount of healing somewhere else. (Such as a way to make clemency OGCD once per minute or something, instead of all that burst self healing from magic attacks). Gunbreakers Sustain is in a great spot, Dark Knight I Ideally feel like it needs a overhaul in it's DPS rotation and some of it's defensive value such as Dark Mind (magic only defensive is kinda just... why? It's really good in raids but bad in dungeons? honestly just make it 20% it wouldn't change in high end duties), I wouldn't mind a slow drain sustain on DRK, but in general it doesn't need loads of free sustain.

if players want to avoid "homogenization" Then we do need tanks to fulfil slightly different purposes while also being viable, It's not a easy ask all the time, But If one tank isn't performing like the rest and needs damage buffs why is it also getting utility buffs? when that wasn't the issue in the first place. I personally want variations and differences in the game, but at the same time if people carry on to complain that "x isn't doing enough dps" (when it's perfectly viable, this was the case outside 6.2), then expect the jobs to have less Varity.

Personally warrior needs utility tuned down going into next expansion, all tanks could do with some tweaks here and there, I just hope dark knight gets a new rotation and is less OGCD heavy and more GCD complex. (also make it look more magic)

Straight up give +50 or +100% HP on warrior but low damage reduction stuff. It just takes the hits as is (outside of a few 120/90s cd) and then recovers.

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

Straight up give +50 or +100% HP on warrior but low damage reduction stuff. It just takes the hits as is (outside of a few 120/90s cd) and then recovers.

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Okay, so let's think that through...

Even a whopping 50% mitigation only offers +100% eHP. Your +100% HP for WARs... would have WAR's walking around with the same eHP as every other tank having stacked their 2-minute and 90s CDs together... permanently.

And since you've nerfed the WAR's mitigation in "compensation"... there really is very little point in their actually using those CDs. They can meet virtually all tanking requirements by just... existing.

Now, +20% to +25% HP, atop a means of sustain that may require some loss of aDPS in order to maximize said sustain (such as per old Nascent Flash) so that WARs could decide for themselves whether to have best- or near-best in role damage or best-in-role sustain, but not both through a kit that allows for and builds off of those compromises? That would still be in the ballpark of sanity.

Not +50%, though. And certainly not +100%.

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

Straight up give +50 or +100% HP on warrior but low damage reduction stuff. It just takes the hits as is (outside of a few 120/90s cd) and then recovers.

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Personally I'd give warrior 20-25% Extra Hp / GNB 10% More hp, such as PVP where hp differences is something. (anything above 25% is too much)

Warrior would have lower damage reduction stuff, but enough to survive encounters ideally, I guess I'd like warrior to get more of a interesting rotation if it's already just passively better then most tanks with a massive base Hp buff, So maybe give to more gauge spenders and stuff lol.

Other tanks should be able to more then make up for that with strong defensive skills.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Okay, so let's think that through...

Even a whopping 50% mitigation only offers +100% eHP. Your +100% HP for WARs... would have WAR's walking around with the same eHP as every other tank having stacked their 2-minute and 90s CDs together... permanently.

And since you've nerfed the WAR's mitigation in "compensation"... there really is very little point in their actually using those CDs. They can meet virtually all tanking requirements by just... existing.

Now, +20% to +25% HP, atop a means of sustain that may require some loss of aDPS in order to maximize said sustain (such as per old Nascent Flash) so that WARs could decide for themselves whether to have best- or near-best in role damage or best-in-role sustain, but not both through a kit that allows for and builds off of those compromises? That would still be in the ballpark of sanity.

Not +50%, though. And certainly not +100%.

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Of course the numbers are give are unthought examples, just to give an idea.
Thanks for doing the calculation and showing it would have actual value, now just needs to figure the right number.

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Originally Posted by Kalaam

Of course the numbers are give are unthought examples, just to give an idea.
Thanks for doing the calculation and showing it would have actual value, now just needs to figure the right number.

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Again, 20% or 25% is probably a decent cap. My larger issue, though, is the idea that any tank should be satisfied to just "take the hits as is". That... forgoes the whole gameplay point of being that tank, especially if you don't then in exchange give them a unique/atypical means of sustain that is at least as involved as what most tanks get access to.

A tank should see use because it performs "tanking" gameplay in a way that players find more interesting/rewarding, not just because it can do all that jobs which actually partake in tanking "gameplay" can do... but without having to do most of that "tanking" gameplay. That is to say, the alternative shouldn't simply be a reduction; it should offer similar cognitive load and room for mastery. Now, that guideline exaggerates the difference you've suggested here, but still, I think that's a worthwhile guideline and still decently relevant.

I don't mean for it to *not* have a defensive kit, just repurposed around the massive health pool.
Kind of like a reactive toolkit after taking big hits to recover and stuff like that, which the lifesteal aspect kind of works well for.

I think I would like to be able to hold 2 stacks of Dark Arts in Dawntrail.

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Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei

I think I would like to be able to hold 2 stacks of Dark Arts in Dawntrail.

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I'd like "dark arts" to come back! augment your abilities.

Also popping TBN should make the next shadow MP spender deal 10% more damage (other tanks should also get small benefits to using defensives timed well).

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I'd like "dark arts" to come back! augment your abilities.

Also popping TBN should make the next shadow MP spender deal 10% more damage (other tanks should also get small benefits to using defensives timed well).

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And I'd like Blood Weapon to give me GCD haste back with incremental Blackblood gain to distinguish it further from other similar build methods, but I have to be realistic, or I'm just gonna be disappointed, mate.

+10% DA'd EoS/FoS would reduce the gap between EoS's inside and outside of raid buffs though. Any excuse I have to place TBNs on other people, I still find that to be enjoyable, at least.

I'm expecting some finisher move that can only be used when Living Shadow is out.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

A tank should see use because it performs "tanking" gameplay in a way that players find more interesting/rewarding, not just because it can do all that jobs which actually partake in tanking "gameplay" can do... but without having to do most of that "tanking" gameplay. That is to say, the alternative shouldn't simply be a reduction; it should offer similar cognitive load and room for mastery. Now, that guideline exaggerates the difference you've suggested here, but still, I think that's a worthwhile guideline and still decently relevant.

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That can easily solved by introducing more "wild charge" mechanics and just increasing the outgoing dmg. Since they aren't gonna change striking dummy bosses or their hitboxes, at least make mechanics where the tanks have to be in front to protect the party in the back. Introduce situations where you can't protect everyone and now you have to use TBN/NF/Int/HoC to protect the other party members that will be taking the most dmg instead. I would much rather have those than body check mechanics where your choices are either standing together or wipe is never a fun mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Marxam

That can easily solved by introducing more "wild charge" mechanics and just increasing the outgoing dmg.

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Is this in regard to the suggestion what you've quoted is responding to -- in effect, one tank just not needing to hit its tanking buttons / having eHP enough to survive most hits passively, at cost to its active mitigation? If so, no, it wouldn't. If you increase both the number of mechanics requiring active mitigation and increase their damage, while you might get the passive eHP tank to again actually hit its (that much more lackluster) buttons to survive, you'd also be killing off the other tanks between their CDs through that increased number and lethality of tank busters, or making much of their gameplay really just SCH/SGE gameplay.

If you quoted what I said without regard for its context / just meant this generally, though...

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at least make mechanics where the tanks have to be in front to protect the party in the back. Introduce situations where you can't protect everyone and now you have to use TBN/NF/Int/HoC to protect the other party members that will be taking the most dmg instead. I would much rather have those than body check mechanics where your choices are either standing together or wipe is never a fun mechanic.

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Agreed.

Here's what I think the DRK needs. Not sure if someone will ever read this. Whoever reads it, I think it's way beyond the point of receiving interesting changes for 7.0 at all.

• Abyssal Drain: should be a spell that costs 3000 MP, no CD, stronger effect, and 3s spellcasting time.
• Scorched earth: should last longer, have a shorter CD, deal more damage, and drain a small part of that damage as HP.
• Add spell: Absorb-ACC - reduces accuracy of the target and all enemies nearby it. 3s spellcasting time, 3000 MP cost.
• Add spell: Absorb-MP - Absorbs target's MP. 3s spellcasting time. 20s recast.
• Add spell: Absorb-HP - Absorbs target's HP. 3s spellcasting time. 3000 MP cost.
• Remove skill: Living Shadow. This skill is pathetic and should be removed entirely or replace. Making it have the appearance of Fray instead of the player character makes it even worse.
• Rework skill: Flood of Darkness/Shadow: the animation is one of the most hideous and ugliest I've seen in this game. Remake the animation entirely.
• Carve and Spit: remove this skill entirely.
• Dark Mind: remove entirely or make it reduce physical damage as well.
• Souleater: replace with Power Slash.
• DRK's standing still fighting stance should not have the sword pointing towards the ground, but pointing forward, similar to when the DRK is moving with the weapon drawn. I would change it.

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Originally Posted by Ryskim

• Abyssal Drain: should be a spell that costs 3000 MP, no CD, stronger effect, and 3s spellcasting time.
• Scorched earth: should last longer, have a shorter CD, deal more damage, and drain a small part of that damage as HP.
• Add spell: Absorb-ACC - reduces accuracy of the target and all enemies nearby it. 3s spellcasting time, 3000 MP cost.
• Add spell: Absorb-MP - Absorbs target's MP. 3s spellcasting time. 20s recast.
• Add spell: Absorb-HP - Absorbs target's HP. 3s spellcasting time. 3000 MP cost.

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As a DPS, sure, add some spellcasts, but we're playing a tank. They should be sparse if in the kit at all, think of Reaper.

Moreover...a 3 second spellcast would feel incredibly clunky with DRK in modern XIV. Dark Arts was shortened to 2s recast in Heavensward, Abyssal Drain as well was a GCD with a recast.

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• Remove skill: Living Shadow. This skill is pathetic and should be removed entirely or replace. Making it have the appearance of Fray instead of the player character makes it even worse.
• Rework skill: Flood of Darkness/Shadow: the animation is one of the most hideous and ugliest I've seen in this game. Remake the animation entirely.
• Carve and Spit: remove this skill entirely.
• Dark Mind: remove entirely or make it reduce physical damage as well.
• Souleater: replace with Power Slash.
• DRK's standing still fighting stance should not have the sword pointing towards the ground, but pointing forward, similar to when the DRK is moving with the weapon drawn. I would change it.

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• Living Shadow is actually a lot of potency, but it hilariously is a completely forgettable ability in actual encounters because you press it and...that's it, like pretty much every other oGCD in its kit.
• There's reasons for reworking or even grounds for removing edge/flood (especially if we were to get DA back) but the animations ain't it, even if I think flood is underwhelming as hell. The bottom line is they're boring as sin damage ogcd's that require no thought since you just dump them in burst windows (like, again, basically every other oGCD DRK has).
• ...Why? How would removing Carve and Spit even remotely help Dark Knight compared to actually doing something more with the ability?
• Same as before, how would removing Dark Mind help DRK even remotely, even if they were to not give it +flat mit%? In places where it can be used it's invaluable.
• I don't think many of us will argue wanting Power Slash over Souleater. Souleater feels like a wet noodle to press, and it feels completely criminal they didn't just let us keep Power Slash and shift the HP restore onto it.
• IIRC, it is an actual stance, but I don't remember specifically what. Plus, the bigger issue is the running, not sprinting, stance while holding the weapon. Which while I would like to see modified, DRK has much more pressing issues then merely how it looks while holding it running.