Do you think bard desired a nerfing soon.

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Originally Posted by Conkers

Bard is just a DPS class with a little bit of support, some of which is critical, so makes them an automatic pick above any other DPS, bad design, is bad.

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Just because they are more desireable for the support aspect along with their DPS doesn't mean it's bad game design. Any 4 man instance can be done without a Bard, and there is no requirement to bring more than 1 in an 8 man, leaving 3 other DPS to get spots.

QQ, but bard is regarded as the best dps, not because of most damage but because of the dmg + support. It still is not the top tier dmg endgame but we are desired for our support, not our DPS. Still plenty of room for all and the tweaks that need to be done are to other classes. Bard just happens to have the BEST design and functionality for the class as they intended it to be, where the other classes still have flaws that have been exposed and need some polishing to raise the bar for them.

If your bard is topping dps in your group you have bad dd, they are handy and versatile but in no means are they over powered most instances dont even need ballad, and almost never do i have to pop paeon. Most of the time its a requiem which makes blm and smn even stronger and silence you only really need for one boss, which a good monk can solo silence, nerf is not needed the only job that needs tweaking really is war

Working as intended... ilvl Weapon Base Dmg nerf in place since Beta.

Ifrit's Weapon Base Dmg: All DPS minus BRD = 39 <> BRD = 35

Garuda|Titan|Mog Base Dmg: All DPS minus BRD = 41 <> BRD = 37

Relic Base Dmg: All DPS minus BRD = 44 <> BRD = 40

Relic +1 Base Dmg: All DPS minus BRD = 46 <> BRD = 41


- We are already punished for our mobility from a base damage adjustment.
- We are already punished for our utility from a 20% Damage adjustment with Ballad or Peon on.

You want to nerf us even more?
If the other DPS are truly a DMG issue and not a Skill issue then indeed buff them.
However it doesn't seem to be a DMG issue atm, more a situation and skill issue.

- SE has actual numbers and internal testing.
- Client parsers are ballpark numbers due to a formula for DoTs.
- Already see inaccurate DPS #s from users that can't use a parser correctly regardless of the DoT calcuation.

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Originally Posted by Louro999

Yeah bro the only dps support class having all the support skills and being top DPS makes much more sense.

I thought there was no support class but only dps classes ? So what's wrong with all DPS having some support skills hmm ?
Is bard a dps or a support ? You bards should set your mind.

You don't want the bard to get stripped of his #1 DPS role because bard is dps as there is no support class in this game, yet you don't want other dps classes to have some support skills because bard is the only support dps ? Makes sense

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Ok, let's talk about support.

Silence: bard's have 30 CD, monk and pally can spam them.
Stun: dragoon, monk, paladin and war can stun, bard can't.

All of the bard's exclusive support is about the songs, which are highly situational. So when you don't need any song bard's dps is on par of any other dps job, but in fights where you need paeon for AoE phase, requiem for burst dmg phase and ballad for heavy healing phase (hello turn4) bard's dps is roughly 10% lower than the others.
How is that unbalanced?

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Originally Posted by ReplicaX

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So much this. You all want to nerf Bard DPS? Basically, everyone that cries about Bard is asking to destroy the class with your incessant ignorance. You either need to get better players or play better yourselves as a DPS. If you're getting out DPS'd by Bards, you are doing something wrong, end of story.

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Originally Posted by Alcide

Silence: bard's have 30 CD, monk and pally can spam them.
Stun: dragoon, monk, paladin and war can stun, bard can't.

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Monk cannot spam silence because it requires a specific stance. It is the worst of all 3.
PLD cannot spam silence. It is 30 sec CD like BRD and has a higher animation time.

Stun is currently not used in end game. And only PLD is a suitable stunner because it is spammable. DRG and WAR have 30+ sec CD on it.

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Originally Posted by ReplicaX

Working as intended... ilvl Weapon Base Dmg nerf in place since Beta.

Ifrit's Weapon Base Dmg: All DPS minus BRD = 39 <> BRD = 35

Garuda|Titan|Mog Base Dmg: All DPS minus BRD = 41 <> BRD = 37

Relic Base Dmg: All DPS minus BRD = 44 <> BRD = 40

Relic +1 Base Dmg: All DPS minus BRD = 46 <> BRD = 41


- We are already punished for our mobility from a base damage adjustment.
- We are already punished for our utility from a 20% Damage adjustment with Ballad or Peon on.

You want to nerf us even more?
If the other DPS are truly a DMG issue and not a Skill issue then indeed buff them.
However it doesn't seem to be a DMG issue atm, more a situation and skill issue.

- SE has actual numbers and internal testing.
- Client parsers are ballpark numbers due to a formula for DoTs.
- Already see inaccurate DPS #s from users that can't use a parser correctly regardless of the DoT calcuation.

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You are giving real info without the reasons for it.. Why do other DPS have higher base damage.


Melee - Because they don't have a 20-30% damage boost up 100% of the time from a trait and have to deal with melee range AOEs
Casters - Because they don't have an auto attack or as much mobility/utility

BRDs have lower base damage because that have a passive that boosts it and an auto attack that is always going off. Peoples problem with BRD isn't that it deals INSANE DAMAGE. People have a problem with it because it does the SAME DAMAGE but because it is so mobile you are going to be doing damage 100% of the time so you can do more than other classes. Also because BRDs are so easy to play it is hard to mess it up.

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Originally Posted by Louro999

I am myself BLM and I play with a friend BRD most of the time.
We are equally geared (full DL and relic +1).

His DPS is too high for the support he brings. All songs are awesome and that Silence is too much.
Not to mention that most of the time, his DPS is above mine (except on a short fight cause of his +elem dmg song) while he is also bringing all that support.

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If a Bard and BLM both spent their myth on +1 relics I don't think the Bard would be out dpsing the BLM. Are you recording the damage?

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Originally Posted by Thotor

Monk cannot spam silence because it requires a specific stance. It is the worst of all 3.
PLD cannot spam silence. It is 30 sec CD like BRD and has a higher animation time.

Stun is currently not used in end game. And only PLD is a suitable stunner because it is spammable. DRG and WAR have 30+ sec CD on it.

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Since I'm working on a Monk atm (2nd server), I can tell you with certainty that you're dead wrong about Silence. We CAN spam it, as it's a move that takes you into the Raptor (first) stance. It's only a 1 second silence though, and it is governed by the almighty GCD along with a hefty 130 TP cost. And stun IS used in endgame, mostly for the bosses using specific moves you don't want to ever get hit with (see Ifrit HM and Eruption). I'm not even level 50 or doing endgame and I know this just from listening to the Free Company talk about it. I'm starting to question if you know what you're talking about, or if just spouting nonsense.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

I'm not even level 50 or doing endgame and I know this just from listening to the Free Company talk about it. I'm starting to question if you know what you're talking about, or if just spouting nonsense.

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Uh, MNK can't spam silence (PB aside); at best you can use it once every 6 seconds. Not sure what you're talking about, unless you actually think (lol) that Arm of the Destroyer always silences, which it doesn't. Try reading tooltips, champ.

As for stuns not being used, Thotor is talking about things like Garuda, Titan, and Coil, where stun moves either aren't needed (like tank stuns, since bosses are immune) or are just thrown in for free damage not for stun effect (like peak and tackle for MNK).

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Originally Posted by Mishaela

Uh, MNK can't spam silence (PB aside); at best you can use it once every 6 seconds. Not sure what you're talking about, unless you actually think (lol) that Arm of the Destroyer always silences, which it doesn't. Try reading tooltips, champ.

As for stuns not being used, Thotor is talking about things like Garuda, Titan, and Coil, where stun moves either aren't needed (like tank stuns, since bosses are immune) or are just thrown in for free damage not for stun effect (like peak and tackle for MNK).

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I didn't realize Monks would learn yet another Silence. Kind of silly, but I can roll with that. And I wasn't aware that's how those worked, I'll need to keep that in mind for the future. *insert mandatory The More You Know gif here*

MNK doesn't learn another silence. I was just talking about how PB lets MNK spam Silence 4-5 times in a row (which is generally never necessary).

FWIW, in coil the group I go with uses MNK to lock down first orb in t1 and then uses BRD/PLD silences to lock down the other stuff in t2 while the MNK just focuses on DPS. In t4 you don't need silence.

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Originally Posted by Mishaela

MNK doesn't learn another silence. I was just talking about how PB lets MNK spam Silence 4-5 times in a row (which is generally never necessary).

FWIW, in coil the group I go with uses MNK to lock down first orb in t1 and then uses BRD/PLD silences to lock down the other stuff in t2 while the MNK just focuses on DPS. In t4 you don't need silence.

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Interesting to know. Just how hellish is the Coil anyway? I've heard people say that the BRD needs to constantly keep certain songs going through the dungeon, is that true?

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Originally Posted by Trayes

You are giving real info without the reasons for it

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- Because I'm tired of ppl's laziness and arrogance at this point.
- This is at least the 10th thread since launch coming from hard-headed players.
- People have spent hours comparing, theory-crafting, and testing equally geared and skilled DPS jobs and have found Bard on the bottom in many situations.
- There are plenty of Endgame Coil 1-5 FCs running only 1 Bard, many of them running 2 Mnks or 2 BLMS to effectively contribute more DPS or abuse their other skills.

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Originally Posted by Trayes

Melee|Casters Snip

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Please go look at every other DPS's Job Abilites, Weaponskills, and Cross-class abilities please. Many have the similar boosts via different means/methods.

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Originally Posted by Trayes

Also because BRDs are so easy to play

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I blame this statement on the ones who love to use it. Research and testing things out comes with playing the game. There are just too many players nowadays that are unwilling to learn, to stubborn/insulted to take constructive suggestion or flat out lazy. Bard players included.

Bards are a DPS class, I would expect if anything that got nerfed would be there songs. Maybe even more decreased dps while singing, but I don't think there going to nerf a dps class's dps unless its really destroying crap. If they could do maximum dps while playing songs, then I can see them getting hammered.

If nerfing there dps or whatever is really needed like a lot have said in this thread, not read the whole thing. It might already be in the works just not like many are thinking or hoping for. In games like this, you can nerf or buff classes through gear scaling. Much more effective because it doesnt mess with the leveling up part of the game, just gear progression. There is suppose to be a lot of new end game content coming next patch I hear, we will see.

so much raging bard

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Originally Posted by ReplicaX

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I am pretty sure you didn't read what I said so I will just let you sit there and keep thinking whatever you want.

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Originally Posted by Trayes

I am pretty sure you didn't read what I said so I will just let you sit there and keep thinking whatever you want.

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- You are basing your theory on Increased Action Damage II and the fact a Bard can full auto-attack 100% (via LOS/facing Mob only btw).

I am saying review other DPS job/class traits and abilities and you will see by other means they also achieve high dmg boosts. Which with equal skill/gear beat Bard in most situations.

Or think whatever you want.

Edit : Post sounded like a rant when I was proof reading when I did not intend it that way.

From what I've seen and read, archers/bards are probably balanced at end game content. It's everything up to end game that highly favors them (especially over melee).

1. Pre endgame, there's very little need to use songs in any group content.

2. Full access to all damage skills while running around to your heart's desire (not that you need to in most pre end game content). It can be damn frustrating to hit moving targets as melee (mostly blame poor coding on this) in comparison to other MMOs I've played. Movement out of AoE and such also lowers the damage potential off classes but the archer/bard.

3. No need to worry about positional attacks. I know your attacks have lower overall potency, but a mob moved unexpectedly by the tank, of its own doing, or even someone moving it by over shadowing a tank's emnity, will throw off a dragoon/monk's damage potential.

4. Accuracy matters for archers/bard, but not as much when compared to melee. Without combos (even worse, positional combos) to worry about..a miss a waste of GCD and small damage. A miss for a dragoon/monk is as severe damage loss for their combos.

I'm not advocating for a nerf to archer/bard damage. I'm not delusional enough to believe every class can be 100% balanced from level 1 through 50. I am, however, a little tired seeing stout archer/bard defenders pretend everything is okay. Endgame may the the best "class balancing point" (though warriors could use some attention). It's a shame 99% of the game isn't endgame, though.

P.S. If I wanted to nerf this class, I would add a cast time to heavy shot and place bloodletter on the GCD.

Nerfing bards songs isnt a good idea, this would hurt everyone as those songs are needed. Hell you might even buff them and get rid of the MP costs on mage's ballad. That way ONE bard could sing the whole time.

What they could consider is getting rid of song stacking.

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Originally Posted by Trayes

I am pretty sure you didn't read what I said so I will just let you sit there and keep thinking whatever you want.

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Thanks for proving his point that people like you are ignorant from pure laziness and arrogance.

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Originally Posted by Risbyn

Thanks for proving his point that people like you are ignorant from pure laziness and arrogance.

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No I am working and I don't have time to retype the same thing 10 times so people can understand what I am saying. The act of not sitting there and fighting with someone who has made up their mind is not an act of laziness or ignorance. What makes me arrogant? That fact that I have my own thoughts?

Shame on me...

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Originally Posted by Trayes

No I am working and I don't have time to retype the same thing 10 times so people can understand what I am saying. The act of not sitting there and fighting with someone who has made up their mind.

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I will say, granted we are in disagreement and understand my mind made up is based on personal testing with FC members with Full DL and Relic +1 against my same gear on Bard running different boss fights. You are at least being constructive with your opinion on the matter.

As Far as my skill, my peers can decide if they want to. I play 2-4hrs a night if you really need to know.

Titan HM: Battle Voice + Ballad after Heart and Ballad again /w MP back to 1k.
Full DL + Relic+1
Complete Fight all phases Avg DPS: 187
Heart Phase DPS: 354

Dragoon was pushing: 209 DPS Avg Total Fight. > Limit Break not included.
Heart Phase DPS: 362 > Limit Break not included.

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Originally Posted by ReplicaX

I will say, granted we are in disagreement and understand my mind made up is based on personal testing with FC members with Full DL and Relic +1 against my same gear on Bard running different boss fights. You are at least being constructive with your opinion on the matter.

As Far as my skill, my peers can decide if they want to. I play 2-4hrs a night if you really need to know.

Titan HM: Battle Voice + Ballad after Heart and Ballad again /w MP back to 1k.
Full DL + Relic+1
Complete Fight all phases Avg DPS: 187
Heart Phase DPS: 354

Dragoon was pushing: 209 DPS Avg Total Fight. > Limit Break not included.
Heart Phase DPS: 362 > Limit Break not included.

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And all this damage including missed attacks and positional / combo loss.
Cmon people if a melee class can hit all his combos and always be in the correct position to attack the damage that they could do would be extremely hilarious

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Originally Posted by ReplicaX

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That is pretty close to what I said. I said people are not mad because of bards doing insane damage. People are upset that they are doing about the same damage while having all the utility and mobility.

Also when I talk about the ease of play that Bards have I am talking about the lack of positioning needed for skills as well as no cast times and no combos. It is a proc based class. If a dragoon misses 1 of their combo attacks it messes up their whole rotation. It can also mess up the times on all of their buffs/debuffs.

My point has always been. Don't lower Bards damage or nerf their songs. Just make them think about where to stand. This is why I have brought up many times to just add something like this.

Increased Action Damage II: Increases base action damage by 20% after standing still for 3 seconds. This buff lasts for 1 second after moving.

This targets their mobility without removing it. This targets their damage without lowering it. Last but not least this targets their positioning without changing their abilities.

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Originally Posted by Leon_Stormrage

And all this damage including missed attacks and positional / combo loss.
Cmon people if a melee class can hit all his combos and always be in the correct position to attack the damage that they could do would be extremely hilarious

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Should be more data on other fan forums. Many share on BG as well.

Can't we all just get along? BARDS are fine...let's just end this.

I generally average 180-190 DPS in DL, and Relic+1. The Monks, Dragoons and BLM's I play with in my coil group make my damage look bad. I don't understand how this has become such a heated debate. The Monk in my coil group has a mixed bag of AK, DL, AF+1 and Relic+1 and pulls 200+ DPS every fight. Dragoon, 200+, BLM 195+, and even the sad little summoner with his 150-160 +50-60 from his pet.

Sooo, yeah I do the least damage in my coil group with what people are calling the norm for damage for a bard my gear level.

Keep in mind more jobs are on the way, it looks like my role as support will always be set in stone. But I still have to be able to do some damage or else I'm dead weight.

Bards are fine.
The ease of play and heavy handed utility go hand in hand. It gives them more of a group role while providing damage.

Why be jealous of this? I've got enough to moniter as a monk, SE gave bards more to do because their gameplay(rotation) isn't as involved.

They're not that hard. So what?
This is as bad as the people crying about monks being too hard. I just don't get it.
Does everyone have to struggle with their rotation? Some people don't like that.
You don't need to be *rewarded* for putting more effort in to master your class or balance will dictate every class being the same.
NO. Play the harder class if you enjoy the challenge and that's reward enough.

Bards aren't doing insane damage, but they're competitive and bring utility. If they were out damaging everyone. then there's a balance issue.
Otherwise, it's a difference in playstyle.

The complaints might be worth more if it came mostly from bards who are getting bored. But it's not, it's coming from people who see the bards who have an easier time and they're jealous they can't be as lazy.

I honestly think, if you don't appreciate the challenge of playing your class. You are not worthy of playing it.
Sometimes I like to play easier classes, sometimes I don't. I'm glad this game has a variety, rather than other games where the classes are all the same difficulty with just flavor moves for deviation.

This thread is all emotion and jealousy. It has nothing to do with balance.
Difficulty does not need to be balanced. Only Realistic DPS potential (which means simulated to include movement).

Some good reads here while maintenance is ongoing..

Keep up the good work guys!

1. Sacrificing Damage while playing a song
2. Draining MP for making caster's damage even bigger
3. from point number 2, managing MP so can play Ballad and not blaming by healer/tank who runs out MP
4. Getting 0 TP while doing AoE then playing a TP song again while lowering damage

anything else ? :p

From the Thread Starter mention I guess point number 4-9 can't be a reason why BRD should be nerfed. Even BRD get a good damage dealt, they still have to do support by lowering their damage.

I honestly believe that Bards are perfectly fine the way they are. It's just that the current content with the amount of boss mechanics require a lot of movement, melee dps begins to fall off while range dps increases during those fights. While dpsing on the move may be a bit of an overkill, I wouldn't really see a difference if Bards were restricted to only attacking while standing in one place. When they sing songs, their damage is cut, and they are more of a dps/utility class, while DRG/MNK is raw dps. If a fight requires little movement, given a lot of ramp up time, the monks damage will definitely surpass BRD/BLM damage (if they are attacking flank; you do more damage sitting on flank anyways). The current "meta" calls for more range than melee because of mechanics. I'm pretty sure with future content (if there were no buffs or nerfs and everything remained as it is today), things will change.

The other thing that people are forgetting is the HP difference...BARDS have to move because we have one of the lowest HP totals. Monks and Dragoons have more and can take more damager without getting owned in the face. If we have to stand still while DPSing we lose on so many fronts that it is not good.

so you didn't think the other 2 threads were enough you had to bump this one up?

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Originally Posted by Mikedizzy

The other thing that people are forgetting is the HP difference...BARDS have to move because we have one of the lowest HP totals. Monks and Dragoons have more and can take more damager without getting owned in the face. If we have to stand still while DPSing we lose on so many fronts that it is not good.

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Your info is wrong, bard HP isn't much lower than any other DPS. If see the team finished t5, their both bard HP is higher than 4600 which is higher than their MNK. The reason you feel bard HP is low is because bard can find a group even undergeared.

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Originally Posted by neoreturn

Your info is wrong, bard HP isn't much lower than any other DPS. If see the team finished t5, their both bard HP is higher than 4600 which is higher than their MNK. The reason you feel bard HP is low is because bard can find a group even undergeared.

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Bard as a lower based HP than melee classes for sure, the team who finished T5 with a bard at 4.5k+ hp was probably full lvl 90 gears or using vit accessories, either way if their monk had the same equipment, he would definitly have more HP. You don't find a group easier as a bard while undergeared, you'll find a group easier because you are needed for mana support, silence or dmg enhancement, and you need to be reliable with those... so yes you definitly need the gears, as any other classes.
Caster classes have a lower HP than bard tho, more damage potential also... and way less stress when it comes to support in battles especially with interrupts...

bard mobility is what makes bard bard.. without it why play it? might as well be a black mage.... a good pld tank can cover any interrupt a brd is desired for.. so besides mp song what point is there for a bard in a party one they "nerf" their mobility thus making them a much weaker black mage. either keep them dps are make them a real support.. having no REAL support ability and shitty dps makes them well.. a warrior..

Bard should have a stance that lowers their DPS by 30%... but allow their shots to heal, regen tp, mp...etc related to some portion of the damage. They should also be able to just DPS without the stance... and not be able to support the group.

Hunteres were strong in wow because They were strong because of their pets could have stuns,snares,slows.. they were also strong in pvp because of their traps and concussive shots, also scatter shot i think is what it was called.. they were powerful because of their cc. and because of that they were one of the hardest classes to actually be good at in wow.. (pvp wise) if you were decent you should have never lost to a hunter unless they were really good in which case you're going to get crushed in most cases.

I mentioned hunters in wow because they can move 100% of the time and keep they're up time just as much as bard. that said this isn't wow and bards do have all of the moves that hunters have the only real move that you can point to that straight up hunter is repel.. maybe venom shot or w/e but yea.. I do think bard could probably stand to be nerfed a little i dont think they're that op.. but at the same time i dont want the nerf to hurt the mechanic and signature thing about bards which is attacking on the move not songs... i don't know a bard that gets excited about singing a song as much as they do jumping around shooting... its what makes it fun... that said i would like them to improve the use of songs i'm not sure how but they should be more enjoyable to use... the nerf i would like if they give bard one is just a straight up damage Nerf of some kind.. not a movement hamper.. oh and im all for making they're rotation more complicated if they wish. :)