People advertising they're running Parsers

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Originally Posted by EtherRose

Regardless of a parser not modifying any code and the whole "Don't ask don't tell", I think parsing should be a bannable offense. There is no point in needing to run a parser at all. It's literally only a tool to feed your own ego on FFLogs, belittle others and weed out players who aren't performing to said parsers desirable level.

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Have you ever considered making mistakes and, get this, learning from them?

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Originally Posted by EtherRose

Regardless of a parser not modifying any code and the whole "Don't ask don't tell", I think parsing should be a bannable offense. There is no point in needing to run a parser at all. It's literally only a tool to feed your own ego on FFLogs, belittle others and weed out players who aren't performing to said parsers desirable level.

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Have you Savage Raided before? Because based on your comment, I don't think you have, nor really talked to someone that has about the subject at hand, and thus you don't fully understand/comprehend the topic. Unless they remove dps checks, there will always be a need to have someone in your raid group run a parser. Everyone needs to do their fair share of dps and if someone is consistently doing below that, it needs to be identified and rectified in the group. Without parsing, you won't be able to figure out who is having issues so you can help them. Just because someone isn't performing at the necessary level, doesn't mean they will be shamed upon or kicked out immediately. If you actually did raid in a static, you'll find that it is very rare for someone to belittle you for poor performance; generally, they'll try to help you improve first.

Sure some groups will check you on fflogs and require a certain level of performance before letting you join them, but that doesn't mean they will belittle you; just means they have a higher base standard which is perfectly fine, it's their static. As long as they aren't trying to humiliate you, they aren't doing anything wrong. It's like getting a job application rejected by an employer.

The issue is not parsing, the issue are toxic people. Parsing doesn't mean people toxic; they would be toxic with or without parsing.

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Originally Posted by Yahallo

Have you Savage Raided before? Because based on your comment, I don't think you have, nor really talked to someone that has about the subject at hand, and thus you don't fully understand/comprehend the topic. Unless they remove dps checks, there will always be a need to have someone in your raid group run a parser. Everyone needs to do their fair share of dps and if someone is consistently doing below that, it needs to be identified and rectified in the group. Without parsing, you won't be able to figure out who is having issues so you can help them. Just because someone isn't performing at the necessary level, doesn't mean they will be shamed upon or kicked out immediately. If you actually did raid in a static, you'll find that it is very rare for someone to belittle you for poor performance; generally, they'll try to help you improve first.

Sure some groups will check you on fflogs and require a certain level of performance before letting you join them, but that doesn't mean they will belittle you; just means they have a higher base standard which is perfectly fine, it's their static. As long as they aren't trying to humiliate you, they aren't doing anything wrong. It's like getting a job application rejected by an employer.

The issue is not parsing, the issue are toxic people. Parsing doesn't mean people toxic; they would be toxic with or without parsing.

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Ehh as someone who used to do savage content and was part of a few statics, dps checks aren't even as strict as they used to be. Content in general was made easier after the 2nd round of alex sav raids and only made easier since. Also saying it's used to "Help" someone out in your group is also being sort of dishonest to what is the usual case, the person is usually kicked and not really told what they did wrong. As for the higher standard bit, well any static that has to rely on 3rd party stuff that isn't parser(wont say what but assume you know what) to clear stuff, cant really claim to have higher base standards.

Also this is in the TOS "2.5 Data Mining. You may not intercept, mine or otherwise collect information from the Game using unauthorized third party software.". Given how people say it works (I'm on ps5 so going by what others said and what I have researched), it is considered against the TOS given it does intercept information of the game. It's it can still get you banned in game just by mentioning it.

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Originally Posted by CosmicCoqui

Ehh as someone who used to do savage content and was part of a few statics, dps checks aren't even as strict as they used to be. Content in general was made easier after the 2nd round of alex sav raids and only made easier since. Also saying it's used to "Help" someone out in your group is also being sort of dishonest to what is the usual case, the person is usually kicked and not really told what they did wrong. As for the higher standard bit, well any static that has to rely on 3rd party stuff that isnt parser(wont say what but assume you know what) to clear stuff, cant really claim to have higher base standards.

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That is the opposite of what I've seen, and while I may have not raided earlier on in the game's life span, I kept in touch with people who did so I could join them when I finally had the time (which I do now). I seen statics help their members far more often than not. Also, in regards to DPS checks, yes it was made easier after Alexander, but that doesn't mean the issue is completely gone; it only lowered the bar and is still very much fail able. I've seen plenty of people not realizing they are making a mistake in their rotation until someone pointed it out to them because it was identified by their dps; no one chewed them out, they just offered them help.

Also, I don't think you carefully read my post because I never mentioned any other third party stuff; I've been solely talking about parsers. "Any static that has to rely on 3rd party stuff that isnt parser," What other third party stuff did I mention, because I am pretty sure I was just talking about parsers. Unless you are talking about logs, which I consider to be part of parsers, because that website is just a collection of parser data.

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Originally Posted by Yahallo

That is the opposite of what I've seen, and while I may have not raided earlier on in the game's life span, I kept in touch with people who did so I could join them when I finally had the time (which I do now). I seen statics help their members far more often than not. Also, in regards to DPS checks, yes it was made easier after Alexander, but that doesn't mean the issue is completely gone; it only lowered the bar and is still very much fail able. I've seen plenty of people not realizing they are making a mistake in their rotation until someone pointed it out to them because it was identified by their dps; no one chewed them out, they just offered them help.

Also, I don't think you carefully read my post because I never mentioned any other third party stuff; I've been solely talking about parsers. "Any static that has to rely on 3rd party stuff that isnt parser," What other third party stuff did I mention, because I am pretty sure I was just talking about parsers. Unless you are talking about logs, which I consider to be part of parsers, because that website is just a collection of parser data.

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Well I never said you mentioned any other 3rd party program. What i was saying was based on the higher standard comment you made. Statics that usually require a specific parse tend to also be ones that use call out "stuff". So by having to rely on such a thing, they can't really claim to have higher standards given they use a crutch like that. Wasn't saying you said it at all, so I apologize if it came off that way, was just going by what i seen over the years. Cause its a bit hypocritical if any groups if they only want certain parses but also rely on that "thing" to even clear content.

As for checks, as long as people do the SSS and can clear it in the set time, well they can do the damage required to clear the content the SSS is for. Rotations wise, again well SSS is what comes into play really. Ppl also do just pure theory craft which also leads to rotations being created without a parser. Using both would easily let one do what dmg they have to, to clear the content without a parser even needed.

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Have you ever considered making mistakes and, get this, learning from them?

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Saraide, Ill answer this.

We all make mistakes, we all stuff up in one way or another and yes we do learn from those mistakes. What we do not need, want, or appreciate is having our noses rubbed in it PUBLICALLY.

Nor is it necessary to get the point across.

I said this before, but Ill restate the principle. Publically humiliating or embarrassing someone does zero to address any errors, whatever you have to say that you THINK is constructive no longer matters, as whoever you are berating IS NOT LISTENING to a single word.

All they see and hear is a loudmouth, tactless creep.

Staff management manual, book one, page one.

It is not what you say, it is how you say it, to whom, and where.

Not me, silently hoping to figure out how to use a parser so I can practice my rotations to improve.

*winkwinknudgenudgepleaseiambadatinstallingaddons*

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Originally Posted by CosmicCoqui

Well I never said you mentioned any other 3rd party program. What i was saying was based on the higher standard comment you made. Statics that usually require a specific parse tend to also be ones that use call out "stuff". So by having to rely on such a thing, they can't really claim to have higher standards given they use a crutch like that. Wasn't saying you said it at all, so I apologize if it came off that way, was just going by what i seen over the years. Cause its a bit hypocritical if any groups if they only want certain parses but also rely on that "thing" to even clear content.

As for checks, as long as people do the SSS and can clear it in the set time, well they can do the damage required to clear the content the SSS is for. Rotations wise, again well SSS is what comes into play really. Ppl also do just pure theory craft which also leads to rotations being created without a parser. Using both would easily let one do what dmg they have to, to clear the content without a parser even needed.

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SSS can let you get away with somethings that you wouldn't be able to in an actual fight. Part of the rotation optimization is adapting it to the fight at hand, and figuring out what you are doing with that downtime, or adjusting it so you don't end up losing a GCD when you don't have to. Theory crafters use parsers to test out their rotations. Parsing is a necessary part of raiding, always has been and always will be. SSS isn't a good enough substitute. It is possible to clear SSS, but still not be able to adapt to the actual fight.

As for the higher standard being hypocritical, it's more of choosing how they want to spend time. Training someone is a time investment, time that the static may not have. Sometimes the static loses a member due to real life and they want to get a replacement that is on par rather than having to go back and spend time training someone up to be the replacement. It's not really a crutch, but just wanting someone at the same level you are. Also, I am pretty sure there are plenty that refuse people cordially, you just don't hear about it because people talk about the bad more than they talk about the good. Again, parsers are not the issue, people are the issue.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Saraide, Ill answer this.

We all make mistakes, we all stuff up in one way or another and yes we do learn from those mistakes. What we do not need, want, or appreciate is having our noses rubbed in it PUBLICALLY.

Nor is it necessary to get the point across.

I said this before, but Ill restate the principle. Publically humiliating or embarrassing someone does zero to address any errors, whatever you have to say that you THINK is constructive no longer matters, as whoever you are berating IS NOT LISTENING to a single word.

All they see and hear is a loudmouth, tactless creep.

Staff management manual, book one, page one.

It is not what you say, it is how you say it, to whom, and where.

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If you read EtherRose's post, they didn't care about whether people were public about it or not, they just wanted anyone who used it to be banned regardless of how they used it, even if they never mentioned it. Nothing about those who humiliate or berate others and the like, just if you use a parser ban period. They are claiming that parsers are all negative and no positive, so your response to Saraide isn't really valid considering what they were responding to. So this particular argument at the moment isn't about how you saying something, people are currently arguing over just using a parser right now.

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So this particular argument at the moment isn't about how you saying something, people are currently arguing over just using a parser right now.

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*sigh*

As long as you keep it to yourself, I have zero issue with it.

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

Saraide, Ill answer this.

We all make mistakes, we all stuff up in one way or another and yes we do learn from those mistakes. What we do not need, want, or appreciate is having our noses rubbed in it PUBLICALLY.

Nor is it necessary to get the point across.

I said this before, but Ill restate the principle. Publically humiliating or embarrassing someone does zero to address any errors, whatever you have to say that you THINK is constructive no longer matters, as whoever you are berating IS NOT LISTENING to a single word.

All they see and hear is a loudmouth, tactless creep.

Staff management manual, book one, page one.

It is not what you say, it is how you say it, to whom, and where.

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Please follow your own advice then. Read the post I responded to and then try to berate me.

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Originally Posted by EtherRose

Regardless of a parser not modifying any code and the whole "Don't ask don't tell", I think parsing should be a bannable offense. There is no point in needing to run a parser at all. It's literally only a tool to feed your own ego on FFLogs, belittle others and weed out players who aren't performing to said parsers desirable level.

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This game literally has hard enrage timers on its end game content.....You don't "need" it, but to say it should be bannable and its only to feed peoples ego's is ridiculous. It is a legitimate tool to help improve your gameplay.

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Originally Posted by EtherRose

Regardless of a parser not modifying any code and the whole "Don't ask don't tell", I think parsing should be a bannable offense. There is no point in needing to run a parser at all. It's literally only a tool to feed your own ego on FFLogs, belittle others and weed out players who aren't performing to said parsers desirable level.

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Do you know what an enrage timer is? Have you ever encountered a DPS check?

Those exist in this game btw. If you didn’t. :)

I found it an incredibly welcome sight to have people brave enough to add the description of 'Logs' to their extreme trial groups rather than the standard description of 'Farm' where the leader dies 5 times during the attempt and/or brings their undergeared friend who hasn't even seen the fight before.

People feel to entitled to get carried in this game because you're not allowed to speak against it, so having some groups dare to imply they'll do some quality control is awesome.

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Originally Posted by EtherRose

Regardless of a parser not modifying any code and the whole "Don't ask don't tell", I think parsing should be a bannable offense. There is no point in needing to run a parser at all. It's literally only a tool to feed your own ego on FFLogs, belittle others and weed out players who aren't performing to said parsers desirable level.

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When practicing an opener for a new Job, How can you tell on a training dummy over the 20~ second burst window whether smashing random buttons that light up or following a rigorously tested 'meta' sequence produces a more desirable result?
How would one even discover that 'meta' sequence if parsing was impossible?

Thats a genuine question by the way. How WOULD you check that?
Doing a screen record (Ohnoes third party program being used to improve ones DPS!), writing down all the numbers frame by frame and then mathing out all the damage numbers manually in a calculator, Like a parser does with log files?
Is it OK if you manually punched the numbers in?

How would you find out whats causing your party to hit hard enrage timers in Savage raids? It only takes 1 person falling even slightly below the required thresholds to consistently fail enrages.
Would you just tell your entire static to bugger off into SSS and not come out until they achieve a particular kill timer? If so, How is that in any way different to requiring a specific DPS number? All you've done is trade "DPS requirement" for "SSS Kill timer proof".

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Originally Posted by VelKallor

*sigh*

As long as you keep it to yourself, I have zero issue with it.

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Funny you say that, since its Yoshi-Ps stated stance lol.
There was an event a while back whereby a streamer got banned after using his parser to insult a party member. The GMs do care about keeping people who can't be polite to others accountable.
If you see someone using a parser to be cruel to people, report them. They WILL suffer consequences. You won't see it because the GMs don't make a habit of reporting to everyone the outcome of every investigation, but that action was taken.
(inb4 'but they never do anything about bots!', taking down bots requires a different approach to prevent the botters from catching onto what got their bot caught so they can't easily make the bot harder to detect)

Also, In all my years playing XIV, I have never seen someone attack a party member with information that could only have been acquired from a parser.
Plenty of incidents where someone has rudely pointed out rotational failures, lack of buff usage or even just appearing below the Healer on Enmity.
Even times where a healer is berated for not casting DPS spells at all, which is visible via the cast bars.
But that's all stuff you can see in-game without a parser.
Can't assume everyone who is rude to people about performance has a parser running.

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Originally Posted by Michieltjuhh

I found it an incredibly welcome sight to have people brave enough to add the description of 'Logs' to their extreme trial groups rather than the standard description of 'Farm' where the leader dies 5 times during the attempt and/or brings their undergeared friend who hasn't even seen the fight before.

People feel to entitled to get carried in this game because you're not allowed to speak against it, so having some groups dare to imply they'll do some quality control is awesome.

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Except it's time for a bit of truth over the new EX trial parsers especially.

I'm now the highest achievable iLevel with a fine tuned build, still fine tuning my rotation and always pull my weight, but my parse is only green...

I checked to see if this was on me, but then I noticed something after checking the purple and orange parse results in my job....

They are doing absolutely horrible dps during both EX add phases (some drop as low as 2k dps), because unlike previous EXes the add phase doesn't count toward your result and guess what that means?

They're getting carried by others in the add phase because they value a parse result over consistent clearing, their greed is actually endangering runs of failing because they're not using their rotation and tools as they're supposed to, to clear the add phase.

And guess what happens if the add phase does fail because say only 1 of the 4 is using their tools correctly? They instantly leave in a huff.

Why would you not Apex/Blast arrow the lined up adds? Why would you not fire off Radiant Finale/BV to make the add phase as smooth as possible? Greedy, Selfish desire to have a top parse.

I take absolutely massive exception to this kind of behaviour and will blacklist anyone I suspect of holding the team back on account of their own parse.

Your parse means nothing if you are going to potentially cause a wipe because "buh add phase don't count"

This is my problem with parse obsession, this will always be my problem with parse obsession and it's something I stand fully behind.

The tool is for self improvement, for tidying up where you go wrong

Not for getting your backside carried through certain phases because "it doesn't effect your score"

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Except it's time for a bit of truth over the new EX trial parsers especially.

I'm now the highest achievable iLevel with a fine tuned build, still fine tuning my rotation and always pull my weight, but my parse is only green...

I checked to see if this was on me, but then I noticed something after checking the purple and orange parse results in my job....

They are doing absolutely horrible dps during both EX add phases (some drop as low as 2k dps), because unlike previous EXes the add phase doesn't count toward your result and guess what that means?

They're getting carried by others in the add phase because they value a parse result over consistent clearing, their greed is actually endangering runs of failing because they're not using their rotation and tools as they're supposed to, to clear the add phase.

And guess what happens if the add phase does fail because say only 1 of the 4 is using their tools correctly? They instantly leave in a huff.

Why would you not Apex/Blast arrow the lined up adds? Why would you not fire off Radiant Finale/BV to make the add phase as smooth as possible? Greedy, Selfish desire to have a top parse.

I take absolutely massive exception to this kind of behaviour and will blacklist anyone I suspect of holding the team back on account of their own parse.

Your parse means nothing if you are going to potentially cause a wipe because "buh add phase don't count"

This is my problem with parse obsession, this will always be my problem with parse obsession and it's something I stand fully behind.

The tool is for self improvement, for tidying up where you go wrong

Not for getting your backside carried through certain phases because "it doesn't effect your score"

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I went to go double check if this is true, and from what I can gather, the default metric used for ranks is purely "Damage" with "Damage to Bosses" being a different metric you can select if you want. Hell, the main metric used for ranking the jobs is also just the Damage metric. I then went and checked some of the top scorers and wasn't able to find any examples of this. It'd be great if you could present what you are seeing, otherwise it seems like you're just making stuff up.

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

I went to go double check if this is true, and from what I can gather, the default metric used for ranks is purely "Damage" with "Damage to Bosses" being a different metric you can select if you want. Hell, the main metric used for ranking the jobs is also just the Damage metric. I then went and checked some of the top scorers and wasn't able to find any examples of this. It'd be great if you could present what you are seeing, otherwise it seems like you're just making stuff up.

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Literally took me all of two seconds to check.

Add phase world number 2 EX trial 2: 396 dps

Yes, 396. I shan't link it because rules, but you're quite free to check it yourself.

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Originally Posted by Yahallo

SSS can let you get away with somethings that you wouldn't be able to in an actual fight. Part of the rotation optimization is adapting it to the fight at hand, and figuring out what you are doing with that downtime, or adjusting it so you don't end up losing a GCD when you don't have to. Theory crafters use parsers to test out their rotations. Parsing is a necessary part of raiding, always has been and always will be. SSS isn't a good enough substitute. It is possible to clear SSS, but still not be able to adapt to the actual fight.

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Not to mention SSS isn't properly balanced. It's common knowledge by now that some classes faceroll their way through it while others barely make it at the same ilvl or may even need to use food/ pots.
And SSS is especially useless for healers because being able to hit 2111111111 for 3min straight doesn't say anything about their actual dps in a fight where people take damage.
It's an okayish indicator but anyone worth their salt knows it says little about how someone will behave in an actual fight.
So this whole "just do SSS, you don't need a parser" people keep bringing up only bespeaks a lack of experience in endgame content.
Fflogs and xiva are not perfect but miles better than SSS.

Only in FFXIV do people consider analyzing performance to be a mortal threat.

Just stay out of extremes and savages.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Except it's time for a bit of truth over the new EX trial parsers especially.

I'm now the highest achievable iLevel with a fine tuned build, still fine tuning my rotation and always pull my weight, but my parse is only green...

I checked to see if this was on me, but then I noticed something after checking the purple and orange parse results in my job....

They are doing absolutely horrible dps during both EX add phases (some drop as low as 2k dps), because unlike previous EXes the add phase doesn't count toward your result and guess what that means?

They're getting carried by others in the add phase because they value a parse result over consistent clearing, their greed is actually endangering runs of failing because they're not using their rotation and tools as they're supposed to, to clear the add phase.

And guess what happens if the add phase does fail because say only 1 of the 4 is using their tools correctly? They instantly leave in a huff.

Why would you not Apex/Blast arrow the lined up adds? Why would you not fire off Radiant Finale/BV to make the add phase as smooth as possible? Greedy, Selfish desire to have a top parse.

I take absolutely massive exception to this kind of behaviour and will blacklist anyone I suspect of holding the team back on account of their own parse.

Your parse means nothing if you are going to potentially cause a wipe because "buh add phase don't count"

This is my problem with parse obsession, this will always be my problem with parse obsession and it's something I stand fully behind.

The tool is for self improvement, for tidying up where you go wrong

Not for getting your backside carried through certain phases because "it doesn't effect your score"

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0.1% of people misusing a tool doesn't make it a bad thing.

Bots use /sh for spamming real money services, but that doesn't make /sh bad for the game.

Those people are likely in prebuolt groups that support their parse attempts, not random PF clears.

Parties shouldn't hit enrage with a min. ilvl of 570, sorry not sorry.

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Originally Posted by HappyHubris

0.1% of people misusing a tool doesn't make it a bad thing.

Bots use /sh for spamming real money services, but that doesn't make /sh bad for the game.

Those people are likely in prebuolt groups that support their parse attempts, not random PF clears.

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There's a bunch of groups in the PF advertising with words like "Log Run", "Parse Run" etc etc. If people are super against the idea of attempting to parse, they
can always just (shock horror), not join those groups. Nobody is forcing people to join those runs.

As a newer player I wouldn't bother joining these runs but If 8 people want to get together and attempt to come up with strats to parse as high as possible,
good luck to them it has literally 0 impact on me.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Advertising you're going to use it in PF is saying you'll use it to scrutinise others that join. The thing SE doesn't want people doing. You wish to use your Abacus great, fab, I like writing math on a sheet too...

But that's my business

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First, let me say that if you have ever been bullied by another player for anything relating to play-style, that's terrible, and I am sorry. There are plenty of ways for players to get what they need from the party finder without bullying a stranger. Period.

However, I disagree that an advertisement of "barsing" in the party finder is automatically "saying you will use it to scrutinize others that join." For many, it is an identifier letting other players know that party wishes to approach the content from a perspective that is different from say a "Practice" party." The party finder already has built in identifiers that literally lock players out of parties who are not at the same point in a fight. By this logic, one could argue that this function "scrutinizes" players that have yet to clear a fight. But we still have "Practice," and "Duty Complete," to let people know how the group will be approaching the content without directly saying to an individual "you may want to get more experience in this fight before joining." "Barse" or a "farm" parties serve this same function. And it accomplishes this without directly scrutinizing an individual player.

These last two are not implemented as official identifiers in the party finder because Yoshi P. has, rightfully, banned "compelling players to use a certain play-style" and discussion of damage meters to prevent the blanket scrutiny you are talking about. If these were “officially” implemented, it would be saying that the end goal in FFXIV would be to "barse" or "farm and Yoshi P. is on record saying that he doesn't want FFXIV to be “all about efficiency.” (July Liveletter). This is also why these identifiers have not been outright banned from party finder either, because there are some players who approach content in this way, and as long as they aren't directly and intentionally hurting anyone doing it, why bother them? That’s my problem with your post. It appears to be attacking a community that is just trying to do their own thing. For some, the best part of FFXIV is optimizing their kits on the field. While there are some unfriendly people, there are also many players who use "barse" and "farm" parties to achieve personal goals. Not to scrutinize individuals like your post suggests.

In terms of overall success in FFXIV, I personally find that reading thoroughly and using good judgement in communication with others are as important as knowing your classes’ toolkit in battle. As such, I tend to not join parties who are approaching content from a place of which I am not yet comfortable.

Theoretically speaking, wouldn't the point of a "barse party" be one's own parse? Unless you're dying or getting others killed, I'm not super sure people would care about YOUR parse there would they? If it were a speed run, sure.

Take my musings with some salt tho, I play with my static so idk the typical pf culture.

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Originally Posted by Basherr

There's a bunch of groups in the PF advertising with words like "Log Run", "Parse Run" etc etc. If people are super against the idea of attempting to parse, they
can always just (shock horror), not join those groups. Nobody is forcing people to join those runs.

As a newer player I wouldn't bother joining these runs but If 8 people want to get together and attempt to come up with strats to parse as high as possible,
good luck to them it has literally 0 impact on me.

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Something worth noting is that PS4 players do not have easy access to a parser. So if someone on console wanted to see their own performance but cant because of console limitations, those runs advertising for parsers allow them to join and have their stats revealed to them. It is their choice to join as much as it is the party leaders choice to advertise it.

Parsers only become a problem when the player using it is more of a tool than the parser.

I can only speak about parsing in the context of wow classic, as I'm only started playing final fantasy in the last year.

In wow for example if you kill the boss faster, then a larger portion of the fight would take place during cooldown windows. Making peoples dps higher.

I will be running it in the background, this savage tier will be my first and I want to know what I'm doing wrong.

As with all things measured, the data is not evil, just how it is used.
But it is really hard to punish bad behavior with that data, especially since it can instill a culture where ... the bad behavior is held at high regard.
Also percentiles are a garbage way to represent the data, especially in environment where only a very small portion of the community is recorded anyway.

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Originally Posted by Ayche

As with all things measured, the data is not evil, just how it is used.
But it is really hard to punish bad behavior with that data, especially since it can instill a culture where ... the bad behavior is held at high regard.
Also percentiles are a garbage way to represent the data, especially in environment where only a very small portion of the community is recorded anyway.

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People are free to choose who they play with. If someone is using the logs to be a dick, they are mostly likely just a dick. Don't play with them

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Originally Posted by EtherRose

Regardless of a parser not modifying any code and the whole "Don't ask don't tell", I think parsing should be a bannable offense. There is no point in needing to run a parser at all. It's literally only a tool to feed your own ego on FFLogs, belittle others and weed out players who aren't performing to said parsers desirable level.

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AHHAHAHAHA... you're definitely getting kicked from all my groups if that's your attitude.

Ego: wrong unless you're in a static going for speeds. GG 1 strike
Belittle others: only if the other party starts it. Try to keep up with baseline standards for playing a MMO (read as: yes you're expected to do more than just stand there on a healer, yes you're expected to use CDs as tank).
People who aren't performing: Who cares? Make your own group. Don't cry about it.. or do. Most of this community chooses the latter instead of looking up the multitude of resources out there to help you as a player improve and would rather "WAHHHH ELITISM CAUSE PERSON A ASKED ME TO HIT BROTHERHOOD/GLARE/RAMPART"

Nice off-shoot of white/black btw.

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Except it's time for a bit of truth over the new EX trial parsers especially.

I'm now the highest achievable iLevel with a fine tuned build, still fine tuning my rotation and always pull my weight, but my parse is only green...

I checked to see if this was on me, but then I noticed something after checking the purple and orange parse results in my job....

They are doing absolutely horrible dps during both EX add phases (some drop as low as 2k dps), because unlike previous EXes the add phase doesn't count toward your result and guess what that means?

They're getting carried by others in the add phase because they value a parse result over consistent clearing, their greed is actually endangering runs of failing because they're not using their rotation and tools as they're supposed to, to clear the add phase.

And guess what happens if the add phase does fail because say only 1 of the 4 is using their tools correctly? They instantly leave in a huff.

Why would you not Apex/Blast arrow the lined up adds? Why would you not fire off Radiant Finale/BV to make the add phase as smooth as possible? Greedy, Selfish desire to have a top parse.

I take absolutely massive exception to this kind of behaviour and will blacklist anyone I suspect of holding the team back on account of their own parse.

Your parse means nothing if you are going to potentially cause a wipe because "buh add phase don't count"

This is my problem with parse obsession, this will always be my problem with parse obsession and it's something I stand fully behind.

The tool is for self improvement, for tidying up where you go wrong

Not for getting your backside carried through certain phases because "it doesn't effect your score"

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I'm not sure what exactly you're looking at but it's nothing I can find. Far as I can see, add damage matters and they blow their load into them. You just seem to lack optimization, which is fine, but if I could choose between them (group advertising as log group) and you (group advertising as farm group), I know where my preference lies. And I don't need my own parser to have that preference, so no rules broken on my end.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Theoretically speaking, wouldn't the point of a "barse party" be one's own parse? Unless you're dying or getting others killed, I'm not super sure people would care about YOUR parse there would they? If it were a speed run, sure.

Take my musings with some salt tho, I play with my static so idk the typical pf culture.

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The idea is that party finder is - for a lack of better wording - full of boosted trash that will die 5+ times on reclears because they spent the majority of their first kill(s) on the ground as well, and the EX trials are so easily tuned that they get away with it. The leaders of these "log runs" will weed out those players from their party to ensure everyone there is of similar skill level for smooth kills. They make mistakes as well of course, we're all human, but they just tend to do it less frequently.

Personally, as someone who tries to be as good as I possibly can, I appreciate these type of groups more (assuming I can even get in), because at least there I know I'm not carrying someone who doesn't - in my opinion - deserve it.

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Originally Posted by Basherr

People are free to choose who they play with. If someone is using the logs to be a dick, they are mostly likely just a dick. Don't play with them

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Mmm yes, but it is more about culture of expectations.
People with bad behavior can still be held in high regard just by them being good at video games. This is universal in pretty much ... every video game community. Being good at video games is virtuous, being bad at them is sinful. If things get normalized (which is a line drawn in the sand), it can spread everywhere. Then it is no longer being a dick, but "righteous dunker of bads". And then it can become widespread enough that you cannot choose who you play with.

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Originally Posted by Xuled

AHHAHAHAHA... you're definitely getting kicked from all my groups if that's your attitude.

Ego: wrong unless you're in a static going for speeds. GG 1 strike
Belittle others: only if the other party starts it. Try to keep up with baseline standards for playing a MMO (read as: yes you're expected to do more than just stand there on a healer, yes you're expected to use CDs as tank).
People who aren't performing: Who cares? Make your own group. Don't cry about it.. or do. Most of this community chooses the latter instead of looking up the multitude of resources out there to help you as a player improve and would rather "WAHHHH ELITISM CAUSE PERSON A ASKED ME TO HIT BROTHERHOOD/GLARE/RAMPART"

Nice off-shoot of white/black btw.

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It's perfectly fine for people not to care about their own performance and be happy about being bad etc.

Doesn't mean other people have to want to play with them or carry them through content

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Originally Posted by Ayche

Mmm yes, but it is more about culture of expectations.
People with bad behavior can still be held in high regard just by them being good at video games. This is universal in pretty much ... every video game community. Being good at video games is virtuous, being bad at them is sinful. If things get normalized (which is a line drawn in the sand), it can spread everywhere. Then it is no longer being a dick, but "righteous dunker of bads". And then it can become widespread enough that you cannot choose who you play with.

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If you're doing a group school project, who would you rather be working with, the person scoring As or the one scoring Cs? And no, you don't know their attitude, the person getting As can be the most humble being on earth and the person getting Cs the lazy arrogant prick who thinks he deserves better without putting in the effort. In my experience, the latter is incredibly common in FF14, and people in this thread are trying to stop you from choosing who you get to play with, only giving me more reason to think they're angry that folks don't want to carry them to clearing content they don't deserve.

On the add phases not counting: figured out exactly what they're doing

There appears to be a cheese on EX2 that bypasses the Add increased defenses allowing them to kill the adds off quickly with a Limit Break almost entirely bypassing the phase.

Which is of course a coordinated static strategy which may eventually filter down to PUG farming at a later date.

However this is leading to parse obsessers (and I've had them in my PFs) tanking their dps on adds to try hold burst for after while not doing the LB strategy.

If their parse ain't purple they will try to cause a wipe "oh mb wasn't paying attention"

Except you were paying attention the other times you did that mech and suddenly you weren't?

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Originally Posted by JanVanding

Literally took me all of two seconds to check.

Add phase world number 2 EX trial 2: 396 dps

Yes, 396. I shan't link it because rules, but you're quite free to check it yourself.

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I'm looking at Number 2 on EX2, character by the first name of Rose, phase filter set to P2, and Rose is doing... 5903 dps, the most damage in that party by a decent margin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Michieltjuhh

If you're doing a group school project, who would you rather be working with, the person scoring As or the one scoring Cs? And no, you don't know their attitude, the person getting As can be the most humble being on earth and the person getting Cs the lazy arrogant prick who thinks he deserves better without putting in the effort. In my experience, the latter is incredibly common in FF14, and people in this thread are trying to stop you from choosing who you get to play with, only giving me more reason to think they're angry that folks don't want to carry them to clearing content they don't deserve.

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The thing is, for where this matters, that is pug groups, they are not work but play. The football matches in schools if we want to stick to the school metaphor. And excluding others because you want to win does more damage to the social circles around than everyone playing nice and playing with the fat kid, even if you might lose then.

This might be controversial but ... coffers are not that important. Competitive first races and stuff are all fine and all, I have nothing but respect for people who play them and are good at their roles, but for vast majority of the game content, nothing in it is worth hurting others feelings for. A 20 numbers higher accessory trinket people will toss out give or take 3-6 months? Just bunch of higher stats inside the computer? Pretty much worthless in the long run, but bad vibes in a video game can last for ages. I hope nobody has made others feel miserable because of some goddamn ilvl 580 rings.

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Originally Posted by Chie_M

Parties shouldn't hit enrage with a min. ilvl of 570, sorry not sorry.

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They shouldn't, but..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ayche

The thing is, for where this matters, that is pug groups, they are not work but play. The football matches in schools if we want to stick to the school metaphor. And excluding others because you want to win does more damage to the social circles around than everyone playing nice and playing with the fat kid, even if you might lose then.

This might be controversial but ... coffers are not that important. Competitive first races and stuff are all fine and all, I have nothing but respect for people who play them and are good at their roles, but for vast majority of the game content, nothing in it is worth hurting others feelings for. A 20 numbers higher accessory trinket people will toss out give or take 3-6 months? Just bunch of higher stats inside the computer? Pretty much worthless in the long run, but bad vibes in a video game can last for ages. I hope nobody has made others feel miserable because of some goddamn ilvl 580 rings.

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I'm not having fun when I'm playing with a terrible player who wipes on every other mechanic and prevents the party from clearing. There is no "play" happening in such situation and my fun is indeed more important to me. Sorry, not sorry.