Lack of End Game Content

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Ahh, the fresh content that consists of two primals I've fought multiple times before.

The fresh content that will be finished within 2 months, at which point 4 months will just be me unsubbing. For world first contenders, I bet the shelf life is a couple weeks at best. Meanwhile casuals have basically neverending content to do. Endless jobs/crafts to level. Countless achievements and a great number of glamour options.

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If that's all your interested in then I doubt SE will ever be able to make enough content to keep you playing. Also won't there be a new Ultimate in 5.1?

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Originally Posted by jameseoakes

If that's all your interested in then I doubt SE will ever be able to make enough content to keep you playing. Also won't there be a new Ultimate in 5.1?

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Most likely but it is possible it'll be 5.3 and 5.5 instead. The only thing hard confirmed is more MSQ and the NieR 24-man, everything else is based on "this is how SE usually does things for this game".

But yes presuming Ultimate comes 5.1 that'll (assuming he is right about himself and he doesn't get stuck still trying to complete it before 5.1) he'll have two months of "nothing" for end game.

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Originally Posted by Nims

For starters, I didn't say that, secondly why do you want people to be nice here when you're pretty much saying it's ok that raiders don't get anything.

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Not even close to what I've said- nor close to true at all. In fact I've said the opposite, multiple times now- that there's nothing wrong with asking for more, and there's a lot of raid content put into the game at far more regular intervals than almost every other form of content in the game.

And keep in mind you're complaining about casuals being selfish, while at the same time saying it's perfectly fine for raiders to treat them like garbage- you don't see the irony of that?

I've also said there's nothing wrong with casuals saying they would want- literally- the same thing, as in more 'crafting, minigames, world content, etc...' or whatever they like- at the expense of other content. Everyone wants different things.

At no point have I said I want fewer raids or hardmodes, or even the same amount- I'd like to see a broader variety personally, a mix of small group, large group and even individual challenge content (such as the Mage Tower in WoW), and I'd like additional difficulty levels of raids. I'm one that actually thinks the 4 tiers of raiding in WoW is a great thing, and would be all for it.

But, I can understand both that there's a solid amount of content in the game for all types, and they're making a game that has content for everyone.

Whether you agree with casuals or not- it doesn't make much sense to lament that casuals aren't supportive of them losing content so you can get more content while at the same time showing such contempt for them.

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Originally Posted by Dualblade

Most likely but it is possible it'll be 5.3 and 5.5 instead. The only thing hard confirmed is more MSQ and the NieR 24-man, everything else is based on "this is how SE usually does things for this game".

But yes presuming Ultimate comes 5.1 that'll (assuming he is right about himself and he doesn't get stuck still trying to complete it before 5.1) he'll have two months of "nothing" for end game.

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Anddddddd this is where the problem is...casual players are NEVER able to say there is nothing to do where end game enthusiasts can go months at a time very frequently with little to do then when we DO get something its the rinse and repeat trials or <insert fancy name here> raid turns. All were sayin is make something that will stick and has replay-ability. We cant even get a meta proof real relic weapon with unique stats or weaponskill to show for some form of dedication.(unless that shiny animation weapon glow glamour is there way of saying good job)

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Originally Posted by ElciaDeiLinus

And keep in mind you're complaining about casuals being selfish, while at the same time saying it's perfectly fine for raiders to treat them like garbage- you don't see the irony of that?

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I'll continue when you can copy and paste where I said anything even remotely close to that.

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Originally Posted by Nims

False, I'm demeaning them because if they think that just because they don't want something means no one should get it, that's disgusting. Again, in mmos resources and or time will always be taken from one thing to implement something new and will cycle through like this (depending on the size of the team).

Savages and Extremes are basically all the hardcore group has and it takes next to no time to down to them. People have asked for a higher difficulty, only for selfish people to shoot it down because they don't have time or the skill to do it.

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Last page.

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Originally Posted by Avraym

We all know Final Fantasy has a formula for each expansion. The question is, is it enough to keep max level players sated.

Scottzone breaks down his thoughts in the below and articulates it better than I can:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJPGDmkb-j8

In my opinion, Shadowbringers overall is a fantastic expansion, with rich story telling, awe inspiring visuals and songs that are pieces of art. Unfortunately, once you hit max level, have acquired your extreme and tome gears - one can find themselves asking, "Is that it?".

Eden Savage is a much needed and welcomed addition, but 4 fights don't feel like enough end game content to keep a player busy. The game feels like it needs content between Eden Normal and Eden Savage.

I know new tomes are coming out in 2 weeks, but farming old content for tomes doesn't feel like enough.

In every other MMORPG I played, I never ran out of content to do at max level within less than two weeks of an expansion. There was always plenty to keep my max level busy and challenged.

Am I alone in wishing that we had more to keep our max level classes busy? I feel like the game offers so much "along the way to 80", but it just stops there and wants to level something else.

The game has grown substantially over the years and has definitely attracted more like minded people who are used to having plenty of options of end game content in its competitors.

In the interests of the games longevity and continued support of its subscribers, its a conversation worth having.

I'm interested in knowing what other players think who have experienced other MMORPGS at max level. Do you find yourself running out of things to do at max level? Obviously this excludes things like, leveling, old content etc.

If not - please provide examples of the kind of content you play at level 80 that keeps you busy.

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Go and level all your Trusts and your crafts to 80... then we'll chat.

I classify endgame content as content that you do at max level, And I do wish there were even just a little more. I would love even just one more boss for savage, personally. I do find myself running out of things to do. I have been playing since ARR, and I have exhausted a lot of the old content. All while they were relevant. No I don't want to craft, no I'm not interested in grinding out more mounts than what I have, no I'm not interested in farming titles that do absolutely nothing for me, I have all of the gear I want, I don't want to level jobs that I do not enjoy, I have to be in a certain mood in order to even craft, my house/apartments/in game husband's house are all decorated to my liking, I have all of the relics I care to have...

While I adore it very much, there are things in this game that I do not enjoy doing, and I refuse to be expected to force myself to do things I despise JUST for the sake of having something to do. That sounds like a great way to burn out. I pay my sub. I choose what I deem worthy to do with the sub that I pay for. The same could be said for the "casual" crowd that refuse to do raids, because they don't like the content and find it not worth their time/money. So, its okay for you to ignore content you don't like, but we are expected to force ourselves to do content that we don't enjoy, just because you like said content and hate the content we do enjoy? The hell is up with that?

I love raids above all else. It gives me life, and I adore the challenge it gives me. I like having to use my brain or challenging myself to do better than before. The trials aren't the greatest, but I can at least take my max level character in there and try to maximize my class or challenge myself by solo healing. Why would I want to go do old content, when that is not why i leveled my character and certain jobs. If the only thing to do to keep occupied is old lower level content, what is even the purpose of getting to 80? I want to do level 80 content. I want to do something that actually requires me to put in work and not practically fall asleep. I want to put my max level character to good use.

This game is catered 90% to the "casual" player base. Most of the people I have seen in favor of more "end game" or "raid" content have not been saying to make the game only focused on that part of the player base or make majority of the content raid content. We know we are not the majority and don't even claim to be, but what we are given is not that up to par. Shoot, I would even be happy with just one more raid boss or even a real hard mode dungeon. Just something. My static completes the raid tier and I kinda just feel lost. Only maybe once did we get through the whole tier after a new tier dropped. And we are by no means pro or hardcore.

No I don't want to play another game. FFXIV is the game I enjoy, and the only one that makes me want to come back to it, even when i feel I have nothing to do. I despise WoW and I refuse to go back to that low quality game. XIV is where I have the little community I helped to form, my "online family". XIV has the aesthetic, boss fight design, just everything that I prefer (outside of the lvl 80 scene). It's not even like I no life this game either, since I have a family/home/job to tend to that take priority, so I really don't even see myself as one who just blows through content ASAP (though I've had more free time the last two weeks thanks to illness). It's not like I don't step away from the game. I just wish there was a little more to do at 80. Before people say "the expansion just launched and the first raid tier is going to be released soon. You'll have your content" no, actually. This has been a problem for years. This isn't a new gripe with people. With the game's formula, we know whats coming. We know its not changing anytime soon, so we know its going to be like the other expansions.

It's really disheartening to have those like me get shot down by the "casual" crowd (I cringe with that word but I don't know how else to address this specific group of people) just for asking for a specific group of content we like to be added to a bit. It's almost like they don't want us to be happy. They don't want us to have more content we love, even though most of this game caters to them. We only get a sliver of the entire pie. Comments like "well I have plenty to do" "I never run out of things to do" "if anything there's too much to do" irk me. If that's the case where you have all this stuff to keep you entertained, why is it such a bad thing to share? I honestly think its a bit selfish to hoard it all to yourself when you're just drowning in content. Personally, I don't even care to have 50%, but I think its wrong to not even be willing to give up even a tiny bit so more people can be happy and stay subbed. Its honestly childish. We are paying customers too. While we are not the majority, we still deserve to be happy in the game that we love. We don't want everything to ourselves like you guys do.

Our community has grown a lot, so that means SE is getting even more money from us/this game. They could stand to invest more back into it.

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Originally Posted by ElciaDeiLinus

Last page.

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None of that says it's ok to treat casuals like garbage, try again.

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Originally Posted by Nims

None of that says it's ok to treat casuals like garbage, try again.

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When you treat them like garbage, and talk about them like they're garbage- you're saying it's ok to do so.

As I've brought up, there's many different things to do in this game- and hardcore content already gets a larger slice of the pie relative to the amount of people doing it. It's one thing for you to say even that's not enough, as I've said many times there's nothing wrong with that- but when you start saying that anyone who disagrees that hardcores should have more and more at the expense of others is selfish and disgusting, I don't think your opinion on them is unclear.

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Originally Posted by Klb600

[B]
Yeah no it isn't, you don't get too just define your own benchmark and definition for what is "much more Theme park" and roll with it. The available rides in WOW are there just like they are for FFXIV, however you choose to measure how "enjoyable" these rides are is besides the point. They are however still there.

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-The gear treadmill is broken, not simply because it is more grindy - because the issue isn't the grind but the level of RNG. Preach has a video about it, and and a more recent one discussing how players need to do content like world quests, which is normally considered casual content, in order to get the best gear in the game. Preach would prefer all raid gear largely come from raids, and it doesn't, instead, it comes from different sources which leads raiders to do that content for the gear rewards, even though they dislike video. I point out his videos so people reading this thread understand I"m stating the general opinion of things as opposed to just my own opinion of things.

Like I said, a good example is making people who normally do PvE need to do PvP for great rewards, or vice-versa. Most people do one or the other, not both, and are continuously frustrated needing to do the content for the reward, because they don't normally do it. If you don't want my word on it, go see videos by hazelnutty where she discusses the frustration. People complained so much the developers even had to address in their video blog to the WoW players.

Also, no, FF14 has no where the amount of time-gating like WoW, nor the constant amount of RNG put in to slow you down. In FF14, you can actually calculate when you will be receiving a reward, what the reward will be, and there is some correlation between what you are doing and the reward received. Because there is so much RNG, it actually forces the player do things far more often than they would in FF14. Some would cheer that "more content", but in reality people are just annoyed because it's more a sense of relief when they finally get it than joy. Also, at least the egg timing for gear in FF14 is on a weekly rotation, so in theory you have seven days to get it done. In WoW, because of things like the artificat weapon and the more recent neck, the most efficient was logging in every day for an hour, to do the exact same thing. Considering catch-ups are usually every six months to a year, that's a lot of time to be doing the same boring world quests every day.

BTW, I actually do enjoy doing the same dungeons every day in FF14 because I find them fun as you actually do have to follow mechanics, even if they are easy to do. WoW dungeons, and frankly any content outside Mythic Raiding and Mythic + is so brain dead easy it might as well be chocobo racing because frankly, chocobo racing is more challenging than the standard WoW dungeon or LFR. FF14 has MSQ raid, but at least it's not the entire game!

-I"m also going to reinforce what I said about professions. It's only recently that professions are so useless in WoW. Previously, you could craft good quality gear, for many slots, and if wasn't gear, it was gems, enchants, and potions. Potions still sell, nothing else does, and the gear that can be crafted is started gear. It was a CHANGE made, and it was made IMO (but others agree) to effectively remove a way for players to obtain gear, and instead keep them going for gear highly dependent on RNG that will 'in theory' keep them playing longer.

-Player agency means being able to set out goals and going after them. I can do that in FF14 because of the currency system. In WoW, there is NO currency system. None. PvP used to have vendors, they are gone . . . because they said players could't find them. Valor gear - gone. Again, because doing so would mean you could have control over when you get certain pieces of gear. The vendor for gear that does exist, you can trade in gear you've obtained for a CHANCE to get gear you want. If you want to actually choose the gear from that vendor, the amount of turn in required will take MONTHS.

WoW has developers that have implemented mobile game tactics in place of an MMO. See Preach's videos, or Asmongolds, people who clearly know WoW well and play the game. What I've expressed here, are the same sentiments they express. They actively force you to play a certain way. I said WoW no longer feels like a theme park - Asmongold would say it"s not even an MMO, it's a casino for gear.

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Originally Posted by LadyKairi

I classify endgame content as content that you do at max level, And I do wish there were even just a little more. I would love even just one more boss for savage, personally. I do find myself running out of things to do. I have been playing since ARR, and I have exhausted a lot of the old content. All while they were relevant. No I don't want to craft, no I'm not interested in grinding out more mounts than what I have, no I'm not interested in farming titles that do absolutely nothing for me, I have all of the gear I want, I don't want to level jobs that I do not enjoy, I have to be in a certain mood in order to even craft, my house/apartments/in game husband's house are all decorated to my liking, I have all of the relics I care to have...

While I adore it very much, there are things in this game that I do not enjoy doing, and I refuse to be expected to force myself to do things I despise JUST for the sake of having something to do. That sounds like a great way to burn out. I pay my sub. I choose what I deem worthy to do with the sub that I pay for. The same could be said for the "casual" crowd that refuse to do raids, because they don't like the content and find it not worth their time/money. So, its okay for you to ignore content you don't like, but we are expected to force ourselves to do content that we don't enjoy, just because you like said content and hate the content we do enjoy? The hell is up with that?

I love raids above all else. It gives me life, and I adore the challenge it gives me. I like having to use my brain or challenging myself to do better than before. The trials aren't the greatest, but I can at least take my max level character in there and try to maximize my class or challenge myself by solo healing. Why would I want to go do old content, when that is not why i leveled my character and certain jobs. If the only thing to do to keep occupied is old lower level content, what is even the purpose of getting to 80? I want to do level 80 content. I want to do something that actually requires me to put in work and not practically fall asleep. I want to put my max level character to good use.

This game is catered 90% to the "casual" player base. Most of the people I have seen in favor of more "end game" or "raid" content have not been saying to make the game only focused on that part of the player base or make majority of the content raid content. We know we are not the majority and don't even claim to be, but what we are given is not that up to par. Shoot, I would even be happy with just one more raid boss or even a real hard mode dungeon. Just something. My static completes the raid tier and I kinda just feel lost. Only maybe once did we get through the whole tier after a new tier dropped. And we are by no means pro or hardcore.

No I don't want to play another game. FFXIV is the game I enjoy, and the only one that makes me want to come back to it, even when i feel I have nothing to do. I despise WoW and I refuse to go back to that low quality game. XIV is where I have the little community I helped to form, my "online family". XIV has the aesthetic, boss fight design, just everything that I prefer (outside of the lvl 80 scene). It's not even like I no life this game either, since I have a family/home/job to tend to that take priority, so I really don't even see myself as one who just blows through content ASAP (though I've had more free time the last two weeks thanks to illness). It's not like I don't step away from the game. I just wish there was a little more to do at 80. Before people say "the expansion just launched and the first raid tier is going to be released soon. You'll have your content" no, actually. This has been a problem for years. This isn't a new gripe with people. With the game's formula, we know whats coming. We know its not changing anytime soon, so we know its going to be like the other expansions.

It's really disheartening to have those like me get shot down by the "casual" crowd (I cringe with that word but I don't know how else to address this specific group of people) just for asking for a specific group of content we like to be added to a bit. It's almost like they don't want us to be happy. They don't want us to have more content we love, even though most of this game caters to them. We only get a sliver of the entire pie. Comments like "well I have plenty to do" "I never run out of things to do" "if anything there's too much to do" irk me. If that's the case where you have all this stuff to keep you entertained, why is it such a bad thing to share? I honestly think its a bit selfish to hoard it all to yourself when you're just drowning in content. Personally, I don't even care to have 50%, but I think its wrong to not even be willing to give up even a tiny bit so more people can be happy and stay subbed. Its honestly childish. We are paying customers too. While we are not the majority, we still deserve to be happy in the game that we love. We don't want everything to ourselves like you guys do.

Our community has grown a lot, so that means SE is getting even more money from us/this game. They could stand to invest more back into it.

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I'm glad someone is on the same page as me. Couldn't have said it better myself, thank you.

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Originally Posted by Kaylessa

He had to clarify his points a few times because people kept misunderstanding what he was saying. The twitter post was also him clarifying that he wasn't calling for WoW 2.0. He hasn't streamed a video for 3 days because 2 days ago he received a death threat.

He was triggered, just not by criticism.

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I hate saying this, but - that's life.

It would be great if people didn't do things like that, but they do, and I hate saying this - they do it rather frequently.

Feel free to go google "I received a death threat" and see how common it's done, to people from all walks of life.

This is the price you pay when you live in the public sphere.

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Originally Posted by ElciaDeiLinus

When you treat them like garbage, and talk about them like they're garbage- you're saying it's ok to do so.

As I've brought up, there's many different things to do in this game- and hardcore content already gets a larger slice of the pie relative to the amount of people doing it. It's one thing for you to say even that's not enough, as I've said many times there's nothing wrong with that- but when you start saying that anyone who disagrees that hardcores should have more and more at the expense of others is selfish and disgusting, I don't think your opinion on them is unclear.

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But when did I treat them like garbage or talk about them like they're garbage? Oh...I didn't. I said people that don't want others to get things simply because they're selfish are disgusting and I even said that goes for anyone, regardless of playstyle. Why do you just want to be a victim?

You brought up things that the hardcore community doesn't care about. If someone likes hard fights and progressing their character, you shouldn't suggest "go do gold saucer" (an example) as that's not what they're interested in. Hardcores don't have a relative large slice of pie, they have ultimate? Savage? Can Savage even be considered hardcore based off what it used to be? It was toned down so more casuals can get into it.

i kinda agree on lack of end game content. on the other hand that is how it always been, but on the other hand i was hoping they do something about it which apparently not.

one thing that i never understand is why there is very few gear variant? it seems that everytime i reach max level in every expansion i just need to grind for "this" gear set and... thats it, and they make it as progression not as variation. i was hoping for "hey you reach max level, there is a lot of endgame gear out there, go for it", but they went "hey you reach max level? good, here's the current endgame gear, wait for new patch and we will give you more or less same gear but stronger"

with that kind of progression, as casual all i need is just wait. why i need to farm "patch 1" gear when i could just wait and they will roll "patch 2 gear" later on and i just farm that one instead.

the rest is just there for fashion purpose, cant they just make more gear set with different effect or something? or they cant do it because the spaghetti code?

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

I'm glad someone is on the same page as me. Couldn't have said it better myself, thank you.

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Major cosign to what she said....masterfully articulated

Endgame is a tricky thing since people are obviously going to vary on what qualifies as such. A lot have seemingly been conditioned into believing that it has to be raids, which I feel is a grave disservice to those who don't like them, can't regularly participate, or just generally may not have the skill/ability to pull it off. It's also no secret that certain elements of the raider community can be particularly abrasive to those who don't conform or perform at the level they desire, while also playing gatekeeper when it comes to the proposition of alternative gearing methods.

Having only recently returned, I originally left the game when content was focused on Coil. Generally speaking, I'm one of those people with an irregular schedule that can't commit to things like regular raid nights, nor be guaranteed uninterrupted play for hours on end due to caring for disabled family. Sure, I got some Darklight gear for my characters at the time, but I inevitably pulled the plug because I felt like the more casual, yet dedicated player wasn't being pandered to in a meaningful way when it comes to the brunt of the game experience: Combat. Things that later came that people bring up either wind up unrelated to personal growth or just purely aesthetic. Not to say they aren't things people enjoy, but there's still this awkward in-between that I've yet to really see an MMO acknowledge and really try to do something about.

The above is something I do worry about once I actually finish the story content, being a little into Stormblood now. I look to the open world as I adventure around and commonly think, "Does this really matter?" because so many of the gear-oriented rewards are tied to instanced content. I've traditionally had issue with the lacking scale and reward of FATEs, having played other MMOs where zone events were more of thing to more broadly engage players and sometimes have consequences to the world relative to performance. I see Stormblood has random FATEs with boosted EXP and the rare Forelorn pop to further boost EXP, but still generally fighting these all by my lonesome, there's still that nagging feeling they could do better. And maybe they do with Shadowbringers, but I'm not there yet, and further worry I'll really miss the new content rush that tends to dictate content pertinence in so many other games. Once I get a combat job to 80, I'll likely then level my crafters, but this then goes back to my concern about gear and how it will likely be yet another case of tome/raid gear being better than crafted options until very late in the expansion cycle, evoking a "What's the point?" ennui to it. And in constantly seeing all the gibberish name bots teleporting around and no doubt having their fingers clawed into the economy, it further sends the signal that SE has largely given up on this as a competitive endgame alternative gearing method.

I've never been big on Housing, and SE's implementation of such has further left me scratching my head at times just keeping tabs on it over the years. Yet it also ties into things like Gardening and Chocobos. If the real point of crafting is to churn out furnishings, then it comes as an incredibly volatile market knowing there are other players like myself who don't really care for it, the earlier RMT problem, others being funneled into it, and what likely sells well being further regulated to the drops of rare components that some may not (be able to) do the content they come from to get the most out of it. I know I could solo the old Ex primals for mounts, but with that being solely RNG-based, I'm sure I'll get frustrated on some of the harder ones.

Now, some may think, "If you don't do raids, why do you need raid quality gear?" First, I may sharply jab, "Why not?" and expect the usual retort about incentive and prestige. I could then posit that some only do raids because they're more or less bribed into it for that reason, and that without those who claim they want truly hard content would see a significantly diminished partner pool because it's rather likely people don't want to be so flustered by the commonalities of the system. Next, I'd point out a relative lack of open world or solo-instance content that people could do in alternative where said gear COULD be useful, if not mandatory. The presence of Trusts or the more primitive Squadrons could also serve as an aid here, but then someone will invoke that whine about how MMOs are about playing with others and that being able to do too much alone just defeats the purpose. Nevermind the fact that the gross majority of story content is done alone until the game forces you into an instance. In the end, I really have no issue with multiplayer elements, but tend to find they're better when optional and not forced. By default, this tends to rule out certain FATEs (The 30m ones) because they're literally structured around at least 1 balanced party taking on the boss, otherwise you're likely unable to survive or be able to do enough damage in time. I think we'll all agree some dungeons aren't fun, and with syncing, gear they provide also loses luster as a reward unless you're chasing cosmetics. But there's also the general nature of repetition and a sterile lack of variance when you eventually learn all of a mob's moves and no outside factors can really change an experience short of a party member being a derp.

So, what do I want? To be somewhat nebulous, I'll just stick to: Things Worth Doing(tm). As long as what I'm doing can make my character stronger without having to submit to long DPS queues, not having runs ruined by the impatient/elitist, can let me come and go as I please without consequence, doesn't have some sort of absurd or time-gated access requirement, and isn't an obvious overtuned grind for the sake of grind, I'd say I'd be good. If friends can tag along, even better. I know it's possible, it's just a matter of a dev team somewhere finally stepping up and realizing you can have a legit endgame that isn't just raids or, in the case of other games, PvP.

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

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Well I am not going to defend that but nonetheless that does not change my stance on "how much of a theme park" That makes one or another, is Disney land more of a theme park then 6 flags because Some rides are more to your liking or certain rides exist in one and not the other? We can sit here and argue all day about it but then it just becomes semantics.

So there are some things you had to do too enjoy other things? What of it? FFXIV contains it's own form of this, You know what its called? Story Gating. I would like too enjoy the game with new friends but nope, here is this long winded series of quest that you have too play for hours just to enjoy 1 dungeon with your friend until the next series of long winded quest. choice and freedom, right out the window..

Again I never argued "which is more grindy or how enjoyable the grind is too another." But ok in FFXIV's case they give you the illusions of constantly gaining rewards in the form of gear, but tell me this, What is the point when the tight gear treadmill will just make it irrelevant? What is the point when one gear from another is decided entirely by X amount of numbers? Oh I just gained enough of X amount of generic currency for this new piece of gear where the only difference is a higher number. Then oh 2 months later that gear is made irrelevant, a new form of currency is introduced, new gear with +X stats Is here and the treadmill sprint continues. FFXIV is mostly instant gratification at this point.

That’s fine that you find it enjoyable…But I don’t and there are probably others who don’t. Yeah follow what mechanics? Pull wall to wall trash, tank and spank bosses where you follow some scripted dance routine for the hundredth time? The dungeons are enjoyable the first time around but completely lose their charm after the 2nd run. Most of the time I'm zoned out or watching YouTube as I do these dungeons

The market in this game is 99% glamour, and Vanity pieces for your Housing. what you consider goals may not be to others and vice versa. What Agency do I have in FFXIV when the only way I have to gain high level gear Is Savage(4 scripted bosses) or the same 2 trials I have beaten for the thousandth time? Listen I understand You ohh soo love this game, but to tell me I have Agency in this game over another is straight up duplicate. When I want to progress by doing content X and I am told that If I do content X over content Y I gain nothing but a vanity piece then you have robbed me of all agency.

I am not interested in enlightening myself on how "grindy" WoW is and in no way doubt the validity of your claims about how the quality of the game has gotten, but non the less a Theme park MMO is a Theme park MMO however you look at it.

Maybe if the game had a Server vs Server PVP large scale PVP feature where you can use the gear you have now, and it will be instant queue, like Eureka where you can just go in and out anytime. And you can also gain EXP inside as well as gain tokens. Kinda like Guild Wars 2's World v World feature. I think it would a great addition.

Sure FFXIV's combat is not the most fluid, but if they try hard enough i'm sure they can make something like it lol.

Imagine having such a small mind that demanding more bosses equals to making the game like wow

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

The same level of content? Casuals have far more content to do than raiders by a long shot.

SE has made plenty of money off of this game. There is no excuse for having the very same amount of challenging battle content as 4 years ago.

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The same amount of challenging battle content as 4 years ago, eh? Man, I must have missed those HW Ultimate raids.
I'm one of the players who definitely crave more challenging and varied endgame content but the nonsense and misinformation some people are spouting, on both sides, is ridiculous.

Let's be real for a second: SE isn't blind to what many players want, which is why Ultimate is a thing in the first place, and they have talked repeatedly about implementing challenging 4-player-content; all we can do is wait and see if ShB is the Expansion to introduce it. Arguing with people who are somehow so bitter that they are actively against raiding doesn't give you anything other than a few grey hairs.

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Originally Posted by Nims

Not sure where you're getting this from. Things were fine with Coil as it was an actual raid, casuals said they wanted to see the story but didn't want to actually do the raid. Hence story mode raids, then casuals still complained and now we have the arena boss fights that we have now.

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The key problem with Coil, and other raids, that offputs the more casual players from them is they feel locked out of the story/lore for them. Couple that with high end gear rewards, and you start forming a peasant/nobilty kinda rift. (Or whatever terms you want to use like casual/hardcore, elites, etc)

I mentioned earlier in the thread that if there is going to be more lasting challenging end game content, it would likely have to not reward combat gear. As the more geared raiders get the easier things get. The other option would be some perpetual scaling, that I mentioned too. I still think the best way for that would be via a crafted entry item with multiple hq levels, and hq level of the item sets the encounter difficulty, with the reward primarily being materials to make the next difficulty level entry item. Best would be combining them, keep the challenge by not giving out gear, and let them ramp up the challenge as much as they want.

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

WoW has developers that have implemented mobile game tactics in place of an MMO. See Preach's videos, or Asmongolds, people who clearly know WoW well and play the game. What I've expressed here, are the same sentiments they express. They actively force you to play a certain way. I said WoW no longer feels like a theme park - Asmongold would say it"s not even an MMO, it's a casino for gear.

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You enforce a lot of your points by referencing big wow figureheads such as Asmongold or hazelnutty out of context. WoW giving you OPTIONS for ways to gear yourself and progress your character is a GOOD thing. You can enjoy things like PVP or world quests(fate equivalents) while also receiving some decent gear on the side. That's not what people dislike about BFA. What they dislike is that these options have a chance to titanforge, essentially winning the lotto and turning that throwaway piece of gear into something potentially better than anything you'd get from the most difficult or competitive content available of that patch cycle. You can imagine that doesn't sit well with the more hardcore playerbase.

But the principle that anything you put time into should give something back is not a bad one, just executed very poorly by blizzard. I would PVP more on 14 if it gave me a modicum of a reward, and didn't feel like I was doing it just for the sake of doing it.

In my own personal opinion, it is not that ffxiv lack of end game content or any other contents. It lacks contents not engaging enough to keep the players interested. It keeps using the same old system xpac after xpac. Nothing's changed. Just adding a bit of new stuffs here and there.

PvP? There are better pvp system out there in other mmos.
Open world content? Still the same with the above mentioned imo.
There's still more but I believe a lot are already mentioned in this thread alone.

Sure if you ask me why stay then why not move on to other games. I stay because of the social aspect and because of the irl fc mates I met through ffxiv. I think in the end it all depends on the player. What the player wants to strive for.

I've been playing this game since right before heavensward and just found out that in addition to the Odin in a fate, i've been hunting for and finally completed 5 years later lol, that there's also a trial i had no idea even existed lol. There's content out there.

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Originally Posted by Coatl

WoW giving you OPTIONS for ways to gear yourself and progress your character is a GOOD thing. You can enjoy things like PVP or world quests(fate equivalents) while also receiving some decent gear on the side.

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Yes and no. The problem I was getting from others is you were being forced into doing things like PvP and minigames to get End Tier raid level equipment in addition to the gear lotto.

To put in XIV context, you want your ilvl 450 weapon? Instead of doing Titania EX you need to do frontline. You want your 450 accessories? You get to go play tripple triad in the gold saucer. And so on. That is horrible design. While it would get people to try other content they might not normally do, it will also piss a number of people off in the process.

PvP content should not reward high end normal gear. Mini games should not reward high end normal gear. High end normal gear should come from high end content (which I also think don't always need to reward it) or skilled crafters (which tend to be neglected ovetall).

Its funny to see a "lack of end game content" rant post when the end game isn't delivered yet.

They already adressed this issue, they said they just can't deliver infinite amout of content to match how fast the player core complete the actual end game. They can't straight up deliver one ultimate version + 4 savage + 24 man raid+ Eurekrap + 12 dungeon + 20 MSQ quest + 5 trials every single patch, they're human being with a limited amout of ressources and have to use it sparsely because they can't give a player base a toy while the other have to wait.

Healer were so annoying just because they didn't get a heal this time, I can't wait to see softcore player base going apesh*t crazy because they give hardcore 5 news hard as hell bosses while they have to run the same dungeon for 4 more month.

while there is a stream of content releases throughout the lifespan of an expansion, unfortunately or maybe fortunately, depending on your point of view, it always follows a set pattern. for example, we always get 12 bosses divided in 3 tiers a 4 bosses, normal and savage mode. we always get initially 2 trials, followed up by a few more,then by a new set of more and so on. then alliance raid divided into 3 tiers as well, deep dungeon, new "aquapolis" and constant little continuations of the msq.

the benefit ofc is that you constantly get something new to do and its predictability is a positive and a negative at the same time. a lot of this content we get unfortunately is very repetitive. not only its the same thing you did last,or 2 or 3 expansions back with a new "look", but the amount of times you do this things is boring me a lot.

constantly doing the same 2-3 dungeons in expert roulette? going in to farm the same ("only")4 bosses weekly for gear? the wait for the story to continue because you are intrigued by it and want to know how it continues, but it wont until 2-3 months have passed and you get 3-5 short quests and then you have to wait again?

sure the devs try to develop new content and mix things up, aquapolis was new in hw, was well received and so they kept it and brought it back in the next expansion and we most likely will see it again in shb, same with deep dungeons. then we had diadem in hw which had a lot of issues and a few reworks and then got eureka in sb, which was a reworked diadem basically, but was much better overall (a few patches and changes down the line). ultimate was also a new addition in sb, which the raiding community really liked, so its likely we will see again in shb as well.
then there is a lot more things and minigames one can do, but the question is, while there is a lot of different content, from minigames and more casual content to extremes,savage and ultimates, does it really mean one is interested in this content or does one like it?

another factor is also how frequently a person logs in and how much time does this person play when logged in. to run out of content, or content you are interested in, is normal, even with the personal goals of getting all jobs to max,farming glamour,pets and mounts.the developers can never create enough content or content fast enough to keep up with the rate of people consuming this content.

when i started i had 2 expansions worth of "catching" up(arr/hw), so i had lots of content to go trough and a lot of fun, once "caught" up the repetitiveness started to kick in for me and i started taking longer breaks due to boredom or lack of interests in the content provided.

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Originally Posted by LadyKairi

IIt's really disheartening to have those like me get shot down by the "casual" crowd (I cringe with that word but I don't know how else to address this specific group of people) just for asking for a specific group of content we like to be added to a bit. It's almost like they don't want us to be happy. They don't want us to have more content we love, even though most of this game caters to them. We only get a sliver of the entire pie. Comments like "well I have plenty to do" "I never run out of things to do" "if anything there's too much to do" irk me. If that's the case where you have all this stuff to keep you entertained, why is it such a bad thing to share? I honestly think its a bit selfish to hoard it all to yourself when you're just drowning in content. Personally, I don't even care to have 50%, but I think its wrong to not even be willing to give up even a tiny bit so more people can be happy and stay subbed. Its honestly childish. We are paying customers too. While we are not the majority, we still deserve to be happy in the game that we love. We don't want everything to ourselves like you guys do.

Our community has grown a lot, so that means SE is getting even more money from us/this game. They could stand to invest more back into it.

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Unfortunately, they don't. A lot of "casual" players bemoan anything that one might classify as "end game" because it's content they cannot participate in. Look no further than the initial backlash Ultimate incurred. It only simmered down because of how successful Ultimate wound up being. Even for content much easier than Ultimate, if people dislike raids... well, they're going to push against adding more bosses. At least some are. They tend to be very loud though. FFXIV does a lot of things right, however unless you dabble in almost everything the game simply lacks content at max level. I wholly agree it's a silly argument when people point to crafters, level all your jobs to 80 or god forbid Trusts (Seriously. Some are trying to argue Trusts are "end game."). Not everyone has any interest playing every job. So why level them? If you aren't ever going to play a healer because you dislike that playstyle, well, that isn't content for you. The same applies with crafters. Now obviously not every piece of content can cater towards everyone but when it comes to max level the game often lacks.

What irks me is how the devs seem so reluctant to implement a Mythic+ like system. You essentially reuse every dungeon but make them challenging. Not too challenging but enough to actually hurt you. Throw in some decent rewards or hey, make cool achievements actually worth getting instead of crap like complete 5,000 FATEs. Bam! More end game content, done on the cheap.

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Originally Posted by Ramesses

Go and level all your Trusts and your crafts to 80... then we'll chat.

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I sincerely hope this is meant to be ironic. Leveling Trusts is little more than busywork. If you're perfectly content using Duty Finder, they are completely worthless. Pointing to Trusts as "end game" content is just... frankly, ridiculous.

I am here since 2016 and I can't find time where adn what to do, there is so much, as other people said before me, I am never bored in Eorzea. And the End Game Content is You what it is for You, if it is raid, then its Your problem not everyone.

Hey guys, remember that time Yoshi said you should visit your family and play other games in between major patches? I do.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

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Because dev's don't grow on trees neither is the money ? Or maybe because they are humain being that need to sleep and sustaining themselves with nutriment daily ? lets overwork them to death to finaly still not be able to please everybody at the same time, I'm sure its gonna end well.

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Originally Posted by testname

I am here since 2016 and I can't find time where adn what to do, there is so much, as other people said before me, I am never bored in Eorzea. And the End Game Content is You what it is for You, if it is raid, then its Your problem not everyone.

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Exactly. If you don't do raid content, then it isn't your problem. So maybe you should stop trying to obstruct the addition of more content for raiders? Since it really doesn't affect you or the casual crowd in any way. Like you all keep saying, you're just drownnnning in things to do. May as well be holding up a million dollar check in front of a beggar and telling them not to desire any money for themselves.

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Originally Posted by Nariel

Because dev's don't grow on trees neither is the money ? Or maybe because they are humain being that need to sleep and sustaining themselves with nutriment daily ? lets overwork them to death to finaly still not be able to please everybody at the same time, I'm sure its gonna end well.

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The money is rolling in for them on this game. Millions of purchases for every expansion, over a million subs, plus mog station purchases(double dipping lol). Money is not an excuse anymore. They have the money to hire additional devs, and if for some reason they had to pull existing devs to help create more raid content, well, casuals already have more than enough to do, right?

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

The money is rolling in for them on this game. Millions of purchases for every expansion, over a million subs, plus mog station purchases(double dipping lol). Money is not an excuse anymore. They have the money to hire additional devs, and if for some reason they had to pull existing devs, well, casuals already have more than enough to do, right?

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How do you know are you their accountant ? Do you know how many people work for FFXIV ? How much they get paid ? How much work they already have to do or even how much of this money is getting reinvested into the game ? Do you even begin to understand how a compagny work or even the economy in general for what it is ?

Do you think fan fest are free to charge ? The translation work isn't free either. Ho, you know what cost money too ? Serveur maintenance staff. And while at it, I'm pretty sure they don't eat copy of the game for lunch.

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Originally Posted by Nariel

How do you know are you their accountant ? Do you know how many people work for FFXIV ? How much they get paid ? How much work they already have to do or even how much of this money is getting reinvested into the game ? Do you even begin to understand how a compagny work or even the economy in general for what it is ?

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Increased amount of voice acting, better voice actors(GoT actors.) Better story. They didn't have the mogstation in the start of Heavensward I don't recall, now they do. They got way more subs than ARR. I certainly don't know the cost to maintain it all, but with the addition of Mog Station and subs increasing, you'd think they could devote a bit more to raids at this point. Especially when I've heard they are funneling money from this game to some of their other games.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Increased amount of voice acting, better voice actors(GoT actors.) Better story. They didn't have the mogstation in the start of Heavensward I don't recall, now they do. They got way more subs than ARR. I certainly don't know the cost but maintain it all, but with the addition of Mog Station and subs increasing, you'd think they could devote a bit more to raids at this point. Especially when I've heard they are funneling money from this game to some of their other games.

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Still they can't throw that money in a computeur to made a new dev's appear out of nowhere to create something new in the blink of an eye.

They have to wait for the higher ups to allow the "new" budget, to brief the staff, form the news dev's/traductor/whatever, make place for it in the schedule and work on it for weeks. And still, here you are expecting them to use money they don't have yet to make feature they didn't planned for a patch they already scheduled everything.

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Originally Posted by Nariel

Still they can't throw that money in a computeur to made a new dev's appear out of nowhere to create something new in the blink of an eye.

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I've waited 4 years so far.

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Originally Posted by Hawklaser

Yes and no. The problem I was getting from others is you were being forced into doing things like PvP and minigames to get End Tier raid level equipment in addition to the gear lotto.

To put in XIV context, you want your ilvl 450 weapon? Instead of doing Titania EX you need to do frontline. You want your 450 accessories? You get to go play tripple triad in the gold saucer. And so on. That is horrible design. While it would get people to try other content they might not normally do, it will also piss a number of people off in the process.

PvP content should not reward high end normal gear. Mini games should not reward high end normal gear. High end normal gear should come from high end content (which I also think don't always need to reward it) or skilled crafters (which tend to be neglected ovetall).

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Except PvP is an integral part of WoW's gameplay philosophy and endgame, you cant just relegate it into the same category as a "minigame." Yes it would be ridiculous to gain high level gear from frontlines and the golden saucer but guess what, those aren't integral parts of this games endgame.

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Originally Posted by Nariel

Because dev's don't grow on trees neither is the money ? Or maybe because they are humain being that need to sleep and sustaining themselves with nutriment daily ? lets overwork them to death to finaly still not be able to please everybody at the same time, I'm sure its gonna end well.

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When people complain about lack of content, they aren't necessarily talking about the dev team but Square Enix itself. You know, the billion dollar company. FFXIV funded the development of FFXV and FFVII Remake—the latter of which will probably be one of the highest grossing games of its generation. A significant amount of our sub money goes into other SE projects, including their mobile division. Considering mobile games basically print money, and SE has been caught several times now with some rather sleazy cash grabs (google All the Bravest). I think they have more than enough money. For the development team. If I recall, FFXIV has a bigger team than WoW. The issue is very few can develop battle content. Money is not remotely a factor nor are people faulting Yoshida.

This is typically a SE problem, though I do look at flops like Blue Mage and question it but c'est la vie.

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Originally Posted by Klb600

Except PvP is an integral part of WoW's gameplay philosophy and endgame, you cant just relegate it into the same category as a "minigame." Yes it would be ridiculous to gain high level gear from frontlines and the golden saucer but guess what, those aren't integral parts of this games endgame.

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But yet some do equate those style of things to their endgame. It may not be the gear grind endgame. Just like to some the endgame is emulating Ash Ketchum when going after Mounts, Minions, Glamours, and Acheivemments.

The point was making is rewards from certain endgame activities should have next to no impact on other end game activities. IE PvP rewards pertain to PvP, Mini games to Mini games, Dungeons to Dungeons. With the one big exception of crafting. And the reason crafting is the exception, is its goal is to create useful items for a number of purposes.

Which I am pretty sure most can agree gets the end game shaft time and time again.