Dragoons... how do you feel post 4.0?

I don't find the playstyle thrilling at all. Jumping feels clunkier now because we have more positionals, and the animation lock of mirage dive coupled with our skill speed feels gross. It's also annoying to not have the luxury of moving our jumps a GCD or two around (weak) bfb, and or Dragon Sight because of the urgency to build LotD as fast as possible, so we don't lose it to phase changes or mechanics. None of that is thrilling or fun to me personally

What if BoTD (the actual skill) would change into LoTD once we have 4 eyes and Geirskogul gives us an eye?
That and Nastrond becomes like a 400-500 potency attack (single target if necessary.)

DRG is indeed a high risk & low reward class.
But I feel like with these changes maybe our high risk would be a bit less risky and we'd get a slightly better reward. And some QoL change.

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Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo

No, you wont because a 75th percentile SAM is the same as a 95th percentile DRG.

I've also seen you're logs and sorry to say, they are not very impressive. Feel free to conjure up any excuse or report me for slander of whatever but you shouldn't say things with such conviction that you haven't proven first.

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Are we reading the same logs? Cuz...if I'm not high or insane...that's 97th percentile average.

Personally, I'd like to know why dragonfire dive still isn't counted as a jump. Because it is...but isn't...for reasons, I suppose. Allowing that skill to be counted as jump would help some in terms of getting the eyes going, as well as increasing it's general dps via BotD. But even so...I'm not certain it would be enough to make Dragoon as a job flow a little better. I'm also turned off by the fact that when we're having to reapply buffs/debuffs, while there's still a decent amount of time left on all of them (assuming mechanics aren't getting in the way), which is also disrupting the feel and flow of the job. It irks me having to rebuff heavy thrust when I still have 5 or more seconds on it...but I don't have enough time to run through another full combo, unless I just skip out on a wheeling thrust + fang and claw and just do a back to back full thrust set...which ironically, has turned out to be a dps increase by doing this (by roughly 50 dps on average). But it's not worth doing because by the time I'm going in to reapply heavy thrust and the chaos combo, everything has pretty much already fallen off. And in a fight with mechanics (and with the skill speed in our current gear) it's just not viable in an actual fight.

So NIN gets Huton to manage and it defaults at 70 seconds and then gets Armor Crush which refreshes it for another 30 seconds. Meanwhile DRG gets Blood of the Dragon on a 30 second recast that starts up with 15 seconds on the clock. And our two skills (Wheeling Thrust & Fang and Claw) on refresh it for 10 each. Both requiring a full combo for each which only totals 20 seconds altogether and to top it off our max time is only 30 seconds. Why do we have a 30 second cap? Why are both of our skills only a 10 second addition to the clock? Given how vital the whole thing is to DRG you'd think they'd have given us some leeway.

To be fair I'm also only speaking from a 60 and lower point of view so maybe this works out better after hitting 70 but it really doesn't feel very good right now.

On another note, while I don't have Dragon Sight yet just looking at it makes me feel like it's a stupid gimmick. You can't use it while solo and you've got to hope someone will stay within range of you when you're in a group and you've got to pick the person or use a macro for it. Just seems like something someone thought was a neat idea and tossed in for us.

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Originally Posted by Priska

snip for length

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Maintaining BotD is easier at 64 with Lance Mastery. Anytime you're synced to 60 in 4.0 Dragoon will feel incomplete. I've come to see the design of Dragon Sight just as frustrating as Nastrond, personally. They took our old traited Blood for Blood (30% damage dealt, 15% damage taken,) cut the damage dealt in half and reduced the damage taken to 10%.

Then they gave us Dragon Sight, where we got 10 of the 15% dealt back, and the other 5% dealt goes to a party member, on a longer cooldown to boot. It feels like cooldown filler meant to turn us into support dps, codependent on a fellow melee (or tank, when needed) in an expansion that set a goal of removing ability bloat. Most of the frustration you'll likely encounter on 4.0's DRG will be at 70 though, when you have to deal with Dragon Eyes vs fight mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Are we reading the same logs? Cuz...if I'm not high or insane...that's 97th percentile average.

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His are better tho. Even if we had a good laugh in my fc at his 98th susano. I wished my ast gave me that many balances x'D
Anyways, probably they meant that they are not impressive as comparable to samurais. Which I replied to you when you got it confused, to clarify asap that that's not what I meant, so jokes on me for expressing it poorly. If the general samurai playerbase was the average raider, duty finder wouldn't be a sad sad place xP

IMHO the problem is LotD is bad design. Here's what I would have done: instead of eyes generation based on jumps, they should have based them on geirskogul and nastrond. Every 2 eyes accumulated , your jump cast times reset. When you use your dragon sight buff, any critical by you or your melee mate may generate an additional eye. GG EZ DRG new archetype oGCD burst damage.

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Originally Posted by Priska

stuff

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you can dragon sight your chocobo (iirc). also in the 60s you can use both WHeeling thrust and fang & claw after completing a combo string. this helps some of the clunkyness of the class up to that point. dragonsight is cool, i theory but needs a minor range extension.

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Originally Posted by CapricaLangley

IMHO the problem is LotD is bad design. Here's what I would have done: instead of eyes generation based on jumps, they should have based them on geirskogul and nastrond. Every 2 eyes accumulated , your jump cast times reset. When you use your dragon sight buff, any critical by you or your melee mate may generate an additional eye. GG EZ DRG new archetype oGCD burst damage.

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Alternatively, have eyes proc from Fang & Claw and Wheeling Thrust once you've completed a fifth combo chain and make it so you can't lose eyes should the boss phase. I also think Dragonfire Dive needs to be brought down to 90s and have Dive Ready added; same with Battle Litany being reduced to 120s. Comparing both against Ninja's arsenal, I don't see the reason for such long cooldowns. I, personally, also want Geirskogul on a shortern cooldown since I feel like I barely use it now, but that is more my own thing.

So there's people taking primal logs as a relevant thing?

What about Creator savage?
https://puu.sh/wIw5L/4a8b223bec.png

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Originally Posted by Erys

whatever

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What's funny is that this was a duty finder pug and my average median is also higher than yours despite getting both stuns while you got none. Your median is bad. Your highest parse has 6% less balance uptime the mine, your Lakshimi was padded so you should be careful when calling the kettle black ecks dee.

It was 90th percentile when I made the point, it went up with the addition of lakshimi. My point still stands, your statement was false.

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Originally Posted by Shamox

So there's people taking primal logs as a relevant thing?

What about Creator savage?
https://puu.sh/wIw5L/4a8b223bec.png

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That has nothing to do with the 4.0 class balance, and many people changed mains so creator isn't relevant in this discussion. Until omega savage is out it is the only metric to judge class performance by.

They are relevant.
But yeah, if you think doing some orange thing on some primal ex makes you relevant enough to tell who's bad and who's not, maybe you should stop right here.

Not a big fan or parses as a comparison tool. Innacurate parser, parse doctoring, padding, dependency on: team comp and skill, assigned team mechanics, luck... Its all right for a rough estimate, but not for a clear cut ranking IMO. Static dummy parse is interesting to work on your rotation, but that goes out the window under raid conditions :)

Data is data. If you say something that is proven otherwise with data then yes it is a metric to use.

I never said Orange on ex primals makes you good, but purple makes you average. If you claim that you're gonna outdps the average SAM while In purple as a drg then you are full of shit. That is where this conversation started.

I'm not part of your stupid debate about 75%SAM outdpsing 95%DRG, you're not supposed to compare class to class anyway.

What triggers me is people calling out other people on their logs while they arent better.

Now if we could go back to the original subject and keep proposing solutions that would either make DRG overpowered or not good enough to beat SAM resulting in DRG being left over out of the meta.
(Let's be honest, you can't beat NIN).

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Originally Posted by Maxwell

Not a big fan or parses as a comparison tool. Innacurate parser, parse doctoring, padding, dependency on: team comp and skill, assigned team mechanics, luck... Its all right for a rough estimate, but not for a clear cut ranking IMO. Static dummy parse is interesting to work on your rotation, but that goes out the window under raid conditions :)

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I mean... the parser is very accurate. Sure, from time to time you get like a <1% difference... and you can filter out most padding now. You can also use the parses to estimate the raid dps contribution of some jobs, which make them even more valuable.
Sure, it's not perfect, but it's actually a pretty darn good source of information, and we have absolutely no alternative whatsoever anyway.

Dont get me wrong. I do agree with the heart of your argument from your reply but, citation needed on:

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Originally Posted by Galvuu

I mean... the parser is very accurate. Sure, from time to time you get like a <1% difference... and you can filter out most padding now.

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And it still does not account for mechanic and team comp padding or selective parse uploads. I'm not saying toss parses away. I'm simply stating i'm not a fan of it and i think too many people take it as gospel and single out people without proper control of all variables.

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Originally Posted by Shamox

I'm not part of your stupid debate about 75%SAM outdpsing 95%DRG, you're not supposed to compare class to class anyway.

What triggers me is people calling out other people on their logs while they arent better.

Now if we could go back to the original subject and keep proposing solutions that would either make DRG overpowered or not good enough to beat SAM resulting in DRG being left over out of the meta.
(Let's be honest, you can't beat NIN).

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Don't be stupid. Everything about performance is relative, of course you are supposed to be comparing class to class especially within the same role. There would be no problem with the performance if other classes weren't there to compare with.

I can use someone else logs to call them out because I wasn't the one talking shit about people wanting DRG to improve while saying 'And yes it's high risk low reward even if no one plays it. It's within the design of the class. That's how it is. And I will take dragoon to content and will gladly wipe the floor with the average samurai and work my way throught everything the game throws at my face.' If you say agree that statement makes sense and is fine, then you are out of your mind.

The way you brought class to class was stupid, comparing the dps from both class without taking everything in consideration is pointless.
DRG's raid DPS was estimated at around 300, probably more depending of your BRD other factors.
So yeah, you might have technically the same DPS as a 75% SAM while being a 95% DRG but actually you're bringing raid DPS and that's the kind of things that makes NIN better than any other melee.
That argument was bs.

Now I never showed any kind of agreement towards what he said, in fact I don't really understand what he means, if he wanna play DRG weither it gets buffed or not then ok, I don't care, yet he surely wont perform like a SAM that's for sure.
The high risk low reward part is total bullshit tough, you're right.
I can see what he means though. It is true that optimization became slightly harder while not being really rewarding, yet there's no "risks" at all, I mean, fight's transition will ruine your whole Lotd mechanics yet it has nothing to do with "taking risks", you can't do anything about it aside maybe early triggering Lotd which would just be optimizing not taking risk.

Tbh, calling out someone on his logs while being at the same lvl sounds weird to me.
Not even gonna mention that having high logs doesnt mean that you're a smart person.

The class needs a serious buff at the minimum. Arguing against that is basically saying you enjoy being worthless compared to other melee, and that you will intentionally hinder your static by playing as one.

A rework of some of the skills would be ideal, but unlikely

So far the only relevant proposition I've seen were:
-10% disembowel, additional +5% means at least +150dps for a BRD and 100dps for yourself, RDM got piercing dmg too.
-Not losing eyes if Botd fades, just stop with this being punitive there's no point, balance this by making Botd required to stack eyes.
-Mirage dive double weave should be a thing.

To me there's no point in getting more Lotd, the way it is right now is kinda good, it lines up with B4B.

What class vs class argument are you even talking about? Nobody is talking about utility, all I said is that you wont outdps a SAM and to stop acting high and mighty because his logs aren't even good. My logs have nothing to do with this, as I didn't claim anything about my ability nevertheless when I made that comment, I was 12 allstar points higher and my points wont change as I'm not playing the class much at the moment. If a boxer says that he would beat anyone in the weight class above him despite evidence proving otherwise, I don't have to be a boxer to validate my opinion.

I honestly don't know what exactly you are arguing against, but it seems to just want to argue for the sake of it. The reason I addressed YOUR comment is because creator logs don't have any relevancy when discussing the performance of a class or the ability a player has to use said class. Your pseudo elitism has no merit because creator was a joke tier. I could easily say 'duuuh no-ones logs matter because they aren't from gordias when der was no padding!!!!' but logs from 3.x have nothing to do with how people have performed with a new battle system. The best player could be a blue percentile player right now for whatever reason; even if we know they are the best player there is nothing to show that they are still good because there is no proof.

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Originally Posted by HoLoFoNo

No, you wont because a 75th percentile SAM is the same as a 95th percentile DRG.

I've also seen you're logs and sorry to say, they are not very impressive. Feel free to conjure up any excuse or report me for slander of whatever but you shouldn't say things with such conviction that you haven't proven first.

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https://puu.sh/wIFwn/8b6a481d92.jpg


Tbh, you're doing it again, I didnt brought my logs nor anything related to me, I just implied that you were at the same lvl as he is, so denying him for being "average" is stupid.
Though, yeah, better check primal than creator, it was so easy, so easy that you were only average.
The "new battle system" arguement is funny.

It's like you are ignoring what they said. They specifically mentioned dps. I countered what they said about dps. Utility has no place in the argument because they didn't say 'Me and my utility will wipe the floor with the average sam'. Comparing 2 classes DPS is completely fine. You are having a fit and getting triggered over nothing.

So, because they're being stupid not taking utility in account, you gotta be as stupid?

I'm kinda done tbh, you're the proof that anyone can do some orange logs on primals.

I didn't even bring up anything related to you, this is proof that you are getting triggered like a child over nothing.

You honestly make no sense. Creator DOES have nothing to do with the current state of the classes, and the fact that you cannot provide an explanation to why it might proves you're talking out of your ass. Every time you have brought up creator, you have just stated that yep its relevant and u must be stpuid for disagree!!!!

If you honestly think that you are superior because of your parses from creator, notorious for being much more accessible than the other tier then you are delusional. I could easily just say that you're shit because you didn't clear brute justice or have any gordias logs. Does that make any sense? Does that have ANYTHING to do with DRG not being able to provide the same personal DPS as SAM? No, but obviously you're so very smart and also godlike at this game because of your creator parses.

P.S before you try to pull any more bullshit, I played everything up to gordias on a different account. Also:

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So there's people taking primal logs as a relevant thing?

What about Creator savage?

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And

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They are relevant.
But yeah, if you think doing some orange thing on some primal ex makes you relevant enough to tell who's bad and who's not, maybe you should stop right here.

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So, first of all, you actually called me a "pseudo elitist" for literally just telling you that you might better stop calling people for "being average" while you are "average" too because it's kinda stupid.
You're the one that actually involved my logs.
Then, you really feel the need to justify what you've done in the past, yet, you were average and you still are so I don't really get the point.

Next, assuming Creator isnt relevant because the game got simplified?
Like, really?
Easier than the other tiers, yes, still, that's literally not the point.
If you were able to play to a certain lvl on some easy raid tier while class were harder (still easy though) then you're gonne bas as good now, probably even more.
Literally the same if you switch class, that's my case.
Your whole point is "creator is irrelevant the game changed", only thing that changed is class being easier now.

You keep coming with that no utility shit, according to your logic just gotta go 4 samurais.

But yeah, if you feel good with your broken logic then no problem.
Now stop calling out people that has the same lvl as you while calling other people elitist.

You just have reading comprehension issues. The first time I referenced your logs is in my last post.

I never once said utility didn't matter, but in the context of what was being argued it wasn't involved. Why can't you understand this?

I called you a pseudo elitist because you brought up creator as if it is some testament to skill when it has nothing to do with the performance of the 4.0 classes? Again, why can't you understand this? Just because you did well in creator with a class doesn't mean that you will do well in 4.0 with a class, especially if that class is weak. Is this really not common sense? Let me spell it out for you once more: Creator is not a metric to judge classes by, nor is it a metric to judge how players will currently be performing. DRG had 10% disembowel in creator, was 3rd strongest dps on a dummy and was quite favourable to bring. DRG has 5% disembowel now, is 7th on a dummy and noone wants to consider them.

It is clear that you are trying to prove something, because you are literally criticizing me for doing something that you are now doing yourself as if you want me to look at your logs and feel stupid. If what I'm doing is so wrong, then why is it fine for you to do it? I don't understand how you can't see this.

I assume english isn't your first language so there is no point in trying to explain anything because honestly you are reading what I am saying and creating a completely different argument to attack. Case in point: Bring utility into the conversation when it was quite clear that they were talking about their personal DPS as a DRG vs a SAM and then criticizing me for 'ignoring utility' even when it wasn't a part of the conversation.

TLDR

1. Erys makes a bold claim he can wipe the floor against average SAM for dps
2. I point out that he probably played with only bad SAM or that he was exaggerating or lying
3. HoLoFoNo points out that 75% SAM is beating 95% DRG and has looked at Erys fflog entries to point out that he is exaggerating or lying
4. Shamox comes out of left field and accuses HoLoFoNo that he shouldn't criticize Erys fflog entries when his own entries are not great either
5. Argument intensifies

I'm also convinced that Shamox is not a native English speaker simply from the fact that the posts argue against something that isn't there.

Probably yes.

I will just quote myself on when I clarified to stormbad that I was refering to your average player on samurai, which are popoto dps. Because clearly, clarifying 4 minutes after wasn't fast enough.

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Originally Posted by Stormbad

Wat? I mostly agreed with everything you were saying in this thread until this point and lost some credibility with me. If you think an average SAM can't easily out dps a top tier dragoon, you either have only grouped with only shitty SAM or haven't a clue yourself.

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Originally Posted by Erys

Average as in your average joe. Geez. If I was talking 50th percentile sam they wouldn't wipe the floor with me. We would be already outside of the raid before he gets to laugh at me x'D
Because let's face it, most samurai players are popoto tier while they think are dealing god tier dps xP

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Live Letter tomorrow! I really hope they at least make a minor adjustment to Dragoon and show that they are listening to players/feedback.

I believe if they make an adjustment, it will just be moving Disembowel back up to 10% since that would also impact BRD and MCH in a positive way as well.

Thoughts on your realistic expectations? Are you moving on if no adjustments occur for us?

What time is the LL in EST?

I'm dropping it indefinitely if Dragon Sight is not changed, Life of the Dragon isn't adjusted (eyes and wind up time) and our potency's aren't pumped up significantly.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

What time is the LL in EST?

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I believe 5:30AM EST. I think I'm going to get up for it and then go back to bed for a little longer afterwards.

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Originally Posted by Vincent_Mateus

I'm dropping it indefinitely if Dragon Sight is not changed, Life of the Dragon isn't adjusted (eyes and wind up time) and our potency's aren't pumped up significantly.

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I would be shocked if they make more than one minor adjustment but yes, I'd like all of that to happen as well. So long as they adjust something and admit that it is underperforming in some way, I'll stick it out.

They don't need to make major changes. If they did that, it would significantly alter the jobs' current performance in too much of a big way. Minor changes here and there will be enough to bring it's performance up high enough to be competitive with the other jobs. And if they do anything to dragoon at all, that's literally all they're going to do is just a few tweaks...and that's all it needs.

Most changes proposed in this thread would make the job significantly better and are quite small. Hell just keeping eye stack when losing BotD would be night and day. Better not simply be potency tweaks.