What does Heavensward actually bring to the table as an expansion?

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Originally Posted by HYUU15

My initial point was all about how I have more time to dedicate game than you. and your argument is that because you don't have the time I should play less? I don't understand how this is an argument.

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That's because that is *not* the point, at all. But, if you're bored, playing something else for a while would seem to be a logical suggestion. If you have more time to play than I do, thats great, go enjoy yourself, but likeI said, if you are bored, play something else a while. Coming to the general forum and demanding a disproportionate development effort be made to satisfy raiders deserves a respone from non raiders wondeting why even more should devoted to sections of the game that only a small fraction ofpeople willsee.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

That's because that is *not* the point, at all.

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'What does Heavensward actually bring to the table as an expansion?' is literally the title of this post. If you require more explanation than that, then I can't help you.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

3.1 can't come soon enough

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Agreed. When the forum starts to get this bad, you know new content needs to come out soon. Unfortunately, that'll only quiet this forum down for about... maybe a week at most. And then this shit will start up again.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

If I was that dev, I would suffer from massive reading comprehension problems.

Most complaints are coming from people who praise the game as very fun, and they have certain issues with how somethings are happening and providing feedback. They go on to add that they've become bored as they've run out of things to do. That doesn't mean everything that they have done was not fun, or was boring.

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Late reply is late but:

This is actually a personal issue I myself have with gaming communities. Indeed, as you mentioned, they claim that they like the game, but then they only complain about it. I've never liked mixed messages.

It's also why I refuse to openly advertise any kind of fan work I do. Hell, it's why I'm close to giving up on ever being an artist and/or programmer of any sort.

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Originally Posted by TruebladeNuke

Agreed. When the forum starts to get this bad, you know new content needs to come out soon. Unfortunately, that'll only quiet this forum down for about... maybe a week at most. And then this will start up again.

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Pretty much this and any game in general. I'm personally not bored with the game yet but I can see where the other side is coming from. For me, I just look forward to the new stuff we'll get (story, relic, fixes, etc). Mayhaps everyone needs to take a break from the forums for a while.

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Pretty much this and any game in general. I'm personally not bored with the game yet but I can see where the other side is coming from. For me, I just look forward to the new stuff we'll get (story, relic, fixes, etc). Mayhaps everyone needs to take a break from the forums for a while.

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I love you.

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Originally Posted by HYUU15

'What does Heavensward actually bring to the table as an expansion?' is literally the title of this post. If you require more explanation than that, then I can't help you.

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I require no further explanation, perhaps you do though, since I was replying to this comment of yours;

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Originally Posted by HYUU15

My initial point was all about how I have more time to dedicate game than you. and your argument is that because you don't have the time I should play less? I don't understand how this is an argument.

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Shockingly identical comments.

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Originally Posted by TruebladeNuke

Agreed. When the forum starts to get this bad, you know new content needs to come out soon. Unfortunately, that'll only quiet this forum down for about... maybe a week at most. And then this shit will start up again.

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That's one of the biggest issues that was being discussed earlier. Newly added content should stay relevant / interesting for more than a week or two. Unfortunately, the content they've been adding each patch (which, from what we've seen from the Live Letter, is going to follow the exact same formula as 2.x patches) does NOT stay relevant or interesting. So yes, people will get bored after a week, but that's not the players fault, that's a fault in content design.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I require no further explanation, perhaps you do though, since I was replying to this comment of yours;


Shockingly identical comments.

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of course they're identical. You missed the point of the first so I made the same point point again. Instead of saying 'I require no further explanation' you should give further explanation as to why your opinions are relevant at end game instead of resorting to ''ad hominem".

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

That's because that is *not* the point, at all. But, if you're bored, playing something else for a while would seem to be a logical suggestion. If you have more time to play than I do, thats great, go enjoy yourself, but likeI said, if you are bored, play something else a while. Coming to the general forum and demanding a disproportionate development effort be made to satisfy raiders deserves a respone from non raiders wondeting why even more should devoted to sections of the game that only a small fraction ofpeople willsee.

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Disproportionate development effort?!! You mean all that 80% of the content that's just glamour, stuff that got outdated in a flash, crafting and gathering that not everyone finds as fun, the same 2 dungeons (and just dungeons in general), minions... and... glamour again? I mean if you are going to go there and say that just because YOU don't do end game means making content for end game isn't worth the devs time, I can turn it around on you. You really don't understand what it's been talked about here. It's end game. *end game* You don't do end game, therefore, with all due respect, you have no reason to come in here and tell us not to provide feedback when you don't even know the real state of it nor care about it.

We didn't say the other content was not worth the devs time, unlike you, who are basically belittling people who do endgame. We are here to voice our concerns and you just belittle raiders. The things you post say a lot.

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Originally Posted by aurace1095

That's one of the biggest issues that was being discussed earlier. Newly added content should stay relevant / interesting for more than a week or two. Unfortunately, the content they've been adding each patch (which, from what we've seen from the Live Letter, is going to follow the exact same formula as 2.x patches) does NOT stay relevant or interesting. So yes, people will get bored after a week, but that's not the players fault, that's a fault in content design.

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This is the point of the thread and reason why we are voicing our opinion and concern. The good thing is, you resumed it in 3 lines! I take your opinion very serious Sir!

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Originally Posted by MilesSaintboroguh

Pretty much this and any game in general. I'm personally not bored with the game yet but I can see where the other side is coming from. For me, I just look forward to the new stuff we'll get (story, relic, fixes, etc). Mayhaps everyone needs to take a break from the forums for a while.

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*Shudders upon remembering some of the other forums and discussions on other games after reading the bolded*

Anyway, agreed again. Personally, I just wish people would stop posting like they're trying to strangle each others necks while we're all waiting for new content to come out, but I know there's nothing I can do about that. Taking a break from the forum is indeed a good suggestion though.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

relative opinion.

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You keep throwing this around "narrow focus"...

I don't get it, so because fun is different for different people.... and vertical progression is very much geared at end game and obtaining loot.... and because you absolutely enjoy every single pixel, script, activity in this game and never get sick of it ... that means others have a "narrow focus" and they need to get over it? What the hell? So you are easily amused so everyone else is "whining" ? oh and btw, in vertical progression, end game is "the game" after MSQ, everything else is just fluff, some of it nice fluff other portions are useless fluff and the worst of all-- some of it is boring (edit) and or paid fluff.

Just because some people don't like crafting and would rather punch themselves in their own privates rather than kneel, staring at a glowy ball all day, just so they can repair their equip - they have a "narrow focus"?

Or maybe they like gathering but can't stomach doing it all the time - they have a "narrow focus"?

That they don't see the point in leveling all the battle jobs just to keep busy because they will only ever realistically be able to actually play 1- MAYBE 2 in endgame content beyond EXR because of the lockouts on gear, not to mention the commitment to optimizing rotations so they aren't yelled at every run etc.., they have a "narrow focus"?

Because some people don't find fun in gathering digital minions and mounts they have a "narrow focus"?

Because not everyone is a social bug, or maybe have been manipulated by many new players to "help them" and they quit the game - so they don't want to put the effort into it anymore right now for fear of being disappointed by another lost friend.... they have a "narrow focus"?

For real?

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Originally Posted by TruebladeNuke

Late reply is late but:

This is actually a personal issue I myself have with gaming communities. Indeed, as you mentioned, they claim that they like the game, but then they only complain about it. I've never liked mixed messages.

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It's healthy to be critical of things you like, especially when you pay monthly for it. Everyone here (aside from Kosmos) is specifically talking about endgame - the rest of the game is fine, it has it's flaws but they're minor and easily glossed over. Endgame is a specifically large portion of the game where you'll spend 99% of your time until the next expansion, and it's massively silly to just accept the plethora of horrible decisions that have been made since 2.0 simply because the MSQ was fine. It's like accepting the later half of Bravely Default just because you liked the first 4 chapters, except you're paying proportionally less for that game than this one.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Why do I need to have done any end game for my opinions about everything else in the game to matter? You're telling me that the person who plays a minority of the game and complains about end game has a more valid opinion about the game in general, than someone who plays a far wider range of content? Next you'll be calling me entitled... :rolls eyes:

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You don't but it does show that you have a limited perspective when viewing the whole picture.

You're making the point to argue against players who have a wider view of the state of the game as a whole because they've taken a step into every piece of content it has to offer. Just because someone actively raids doesn't mean they also don't take time to craft or gather, take part in events in the gold saucer, do hunts and treasure maps or level alternate classes, It's actually more often the case that the players who do raid also tend to do most other things in the game else as well to some degree.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

This topic is a great illustration of the gaping chasm that exists between raiders and *everyone* else.

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Actually this topic is a great illustration of the misunderstanding a large amount of the playerbase has in regards to the time and play-style commitments that come with doing "endgame" content. There are many comments in this thread that assume that getting to and participating in end game is this huge mountainous ordeal of time invested, or that the players who do those activities had to have blitzed their way through other content to do so, something that isn't true outside of world first progression.

The fact of the matter is that a large number of players who have made their way through the majority of the game's content have done so on casual schedules and probably spend less hours online than many of the players who haven't even stepped foot into Alexander (normal), yet they also still garden, craft, etc like i said above.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

I've not argued against adding content. What I have taken issue with is people who whine about being burned out because the farmed the crap out of the easy mode raid before trying the hard version, or people whining about having nothing to do when they admit their focus is narrow, or claim there is nothing new when in fact they are only talking about raid content...etc... As for taking my own advice, I wouldn't have suggested it if I was unwilling to do as I say. Believe it or not, some people enjoy helping others and just running stuff for fun,and not because its hard enough to nake you want to hurt yourself. There is enough open ended content in this game such that even if I never set foot in an un-nerfed raid, I will always have something to do.

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There are some players that only do raid / endgame content sure, but that doesn't make their observations any less accurate when they continue to compare the worth of content presented, many of those observations are pointing out things like content becoming obsolete and barren.

If anything their arguments are even more important if they are avoiding a large amount of the game's content because they find it uninteresting, the game should be encouraging players to want to take part in a bit of everything. A theme park that people go to and go on only one ride wont have a long life as a theme park.

Can you still call CT content that the game offers if you are unable to queue for and enter it because nobody else is doing it?

There's a thread on that very issue here:

CT is dead please fix.

The truth is there isn't as much open ended content in this game as you would like to claim, rewards like tomes have set weekly reward limits (Esoterics) and in some cases the items that they provide are no longer useful (Poetics), any content with sufficient rewards has hard lockouts (Alexander), others are completely invalidated by ilvl climb (Primals), some are restricted in a way that prevents free play (PvP GC restriction but they said they'll fix it), and a large amount doesn't bother encouraging you to do it more than once (majority of dungeons), some content is even designed in a way that a large number of people can't even experience it (Housing, anything connected to housing, Hunts during prime rewards), and for others the investment of effort required isn't always met with equal rewards (Relic quest, impacts of crafting and gathering).

The above leads to a formula that essentially encourages burnout at every avenue unless you use the game like a glorified chat room, except the part where i forgot to mention the 8 person limit on the majority of content that prevents you from playing with a large group of your friends, something many players are hoping the airship content promised is going to rectify.

It seems this is becoming more common a complaint on these very forums when threads like these continue to appear:

Final Fantasy 14 is starting to lose appeal because...

Also, how can you blame players for farming and getting burned out on Alexander (normal) before entering savage when:

A) Normal is required for Savage entry and is weekly locked, thus encouraging players to cap on drops or lose out on them completely.
B) Normal came out weeks before Savage leaving players with little else to do.
C) Due to the story mode (see: faceroll easy) nature of Alexander (normal) many players were disappointed with Savage when they were met with similar fights with very few mechanic changes until A3+.

The experience and awe that usually came alongside raid content was essentially stripped away with the normal version being released first, making the Savage version about nothing but gear (and bragging rights) essentially, this isn't to say that they shouldn't have released a story version but they probably would have been better off if they had released one after the implementation of a harder baseline version like they had with the original coils, or just added echo to the baseline version and kept the Savage mode as is (which is probably what most were expecting).

So while you're entitled to your opinions and your views matter just as much as others, your personal perspective is much smaller than that of those who have tried everything the game has to offer in some capacity. Just because you have declined to participate in some of the more "endgame" oriented content doesn't mean that there is a wealth of it elsewhere in the game, especially if a large amount of that content doesn't vary in great degree, or offer enough incentives from the other options presented.

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Originally Posted by Ryel

You don't but it does show that you have a limited perspective when viewing the whole picture.

You're making the point to argue against players who have a wider view of the state of the game as a whole because they've taken a step into every piece of content it has to offer. Just because someone actively raids doesn't mean they also don't take time to craft or gather, take part in events in the gold saucer, do hunts and treasure maps or level alternate classes, It's actually more often the case that the players who do raid also tend to do most other things in the game else as well to some degree.

+rest of the post

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Good god. You pretty much nailed it. I raided from 1 month after launch all the way to the end of fcob with 1 month break somewhere in there. Each week I raid 2-3 times usually taking 2-3 hours each. I picked up crafting and gathering because I wanted to make food and potions for combat use. I also used them to make furnitures in my private room, all of them gathered and handcrafted by myself save for the purchasables from npc and gifts from people. I made glamours for myself, I made prisms for my FC. I did gold saucer: gates, cactpot, casual triple triad and choco racing. I did hunts, I did treasure maps, I leveled everything from 1-50 before HW, I did all the beastmen quests, etc. None of them rushed. Most of them was done as they came up.

I'm not even asking for innovative content at hw launch (which is too late now). I wanted a remix. Endgame leves, endgame treasure maps, endgame job specific daily quests, end game anything else but JUST endgame dungeons, 24 man raid, 8 man raid all over again. I want to clarify that stuff like leve and treasure maps are doable at lvl 60 but they're not rewarding for combat classes like ex roulette and alexander are. At best they just provide materials for an economy that are largely made up of glamour, craft leveling itself (which I fear airship content is just going to be). I want stuff like the stuff I mentioned to reward people with combat class progression (just like dungeon tomes and 24 man raids) and they DO NOT to be have savage alex hardcore.

As a midcore player, I'm fine with there only being one hardest content (the 8 man raids that my group always only fully clear towards the end of the next release). I want something to do on days I'm not raiding with my group that doesn't involve logging in, saying hi to my fc, ask who wants to go to ex dr with me and then get MAYBE one player to join up (usually others have done their exdr to get it out of the way) and then that's it. Everybody tries to find something to do because there's only so much ravana clears we can do as an fc before we just have to move on. Usually that used to involve me just crafting and gathering for my group's raid supply.

There's leveling and end game. I don't have a problem with leveling. There are way more venues for leveling than endgame content and there are multiple classes to level up. As far as I'm concerned this is WAY more varied than the endgame where every single combat class does the same thing: roulettes, alexander and the upcoming 24 man raid and the throwaway hunts and not all your combat classes that you capped at 60 even get to benefit from doing these.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

If you dislike the game so much, why do you play? Seriously, your post demonstrates nothing more than you have a very narrow focus, and empasizes the self inflicted nature of the problem.

You know, base on the replies I see, I honestly have to ask, why don't all of you go play something else? SE will *never* change the game to match your expectations, so rather than hanging around and being oointlessly negative and bitter, why not play something more suited to your...needs?

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I am playing something else, I've hardly touched the game for the past month and then some. When I first started FF14 I never thought I'd play for more than a couple months, never mind 2 years! I played from 2.0 beta through now, and while there were ups and downs along the way to 2.55, I loved the game, by and large. It was one of the last games I bought on PS3, and one of the only games on my PS4 for quite some time. Now that the game is faltering for new ideas and failing to incentivize its old ones, and with a slew of games that have come out and will be coming out, there's less grounding me in Eorzea against the lure of greater thrills from other games.

FF14 hasn't changed, it still offers good story, good content, largely well balanced classes, a beautiful world and all that, but again, it hasn't changed. If their model retains enough subs for the game to remain successful, then yeah, the game will probably never change. Some players will get tired of the same game and quit, while some newbies will join at the bottom and start fresh, and the game perpetuates itself for as long as possible.

If that's all the game has to offer, I bear no ill will towards the players that still enjoy it, not at all. It's not a model that would satisfy me, I'll drop my sub and move on. I've enjoyed my time in Eorzea, I can happily take that time with me as an overwhelmingly positive experience. We don't need to be coaxed or convinced to do it. Suggesting that we do so accomplishes little, the players that have reached that level of dissatisfaction are long gone. If we're still here, it's because we recognize that the game is built on a strong foundation. It's very capable of being a good game, only it's stuck in a rut of same-ness. No one's asking for another ARR, most players are happy with the core of the game as it is. We're only asking for something a little fresher, rather than the very same conventions applied in the very same way.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

SNIP

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ok starting with the reply to me, at what point did i say i, myself, didn't like this game.
all i did was use your list and added the Adverage views on reddit the forums and in games seen as the general view

also playing another game, *looks at MGSV* i have, and it is exciting to have something other then a monotonous grind for a while, though i still play FFXIV a lot.

after reading a bunch of your posts, you genuinely have no clue what is being said or why, you mention narrow view before shoving your head into your own world where your view is the only correct view, thus you have the narrow view you claim to dislike, plus you have said you do not do end game content, and that is what everyone has been giving feedback on, that is like a vegan telling the chief he is cooking meat wrong, it is extremely asinine to beleave that just because you don't do the end game content everyone who is providing feedback dose not care, what to know what someone who dosnt care would do, they wouldn't say anything and go to another game.

but no, your going to stay in your own fantasy different to everyone else where you actively do no wish to do end game content leaving yourself in a position where you telling us we are wrong is in itself wrong, if you have no clue what end game is like then you don't truly have the right to say.

now please either do some endgame content and learn why we are providing the feedback or kindly leave your own feedback on the things YOU have done and YOU like without assuming that everyone in the game has the same view as yourself.


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i apologies to everyone else for that rudeness but let me continue onto the main post,

with heavenward though it has brought much to the table i have to truly see what 3.1 will bring for the end game, but one thing i dislike and i know my friends dislike is the 2 dungeon roulettes, it always seems to be one of them (in most people's cases nevereep) and that surely makes the dungeons feel tedious when there is no extra virally in the mix when you only seem to get the same dungeon over and over, another thing is with Void ark i hope this bridges the gap between Alex normal which is extremely easy and Alex savage which even the devs have said is compared to SCoB savage and FCoB, currently unless you are someone who enjoys every last aspect in the game i truly feel that there isn't much to do, and what is put in has become tedious after only a short time, i hope we do get some more fun content in the future and soon, because i feel that 3.0 is now reaching the point where it needs the patch otherwise it will be like 2.5 and over stay it's welcome.

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Originally Posted by TruebladeNuke

Late reply is late but:

This is actually a personal issue I myself have with gaming communities. Indeed, as you mentioned, they claim that they like the game, but then they only complain about it. I've never liked mixed messages.

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Generally speaking, people will complain about things that they care about, and not about things they don't care about. Why they care varies, but in a context of a video game it's usually because they either like or have liked the game.

Also complaints about a game of this magnitude =/= dissatisfaction with every aspect of the game. Our posts are focused, so we discuss our constructive criticsms while leaving out unfocused material such aspects of the game we enjoy. We could write an essay discussing every piece of content that we both like and hate for each and every post, but no one would read it.

Personally, I enjoy MMO's for the social aspect of the game. Playing single player games feels rather lonely now. I've tried GW2, Wildstar, WoW, Tera and a few other F2P games. Each game has done some things right and some things wrong. FFXIV seems to get more right than wrong compared to all else. For example I like in FFXIV:
-Tab targeting
-Raids
-Mobility in combat
-Trinity system
-Graphics
-Glamours
-Available races/classes
-Story
-Traditional style questing
-One character for all
-Flying
-Beautiful landscapes

I don't like:
-Lack of official parsing support
-Lack of official voice chat support
-Lack of replayability of awesome content (such as story)
-Despite 1 character for all, I feel forced into one job as I cannot properly gear my alternate jobs for the content I enjoy most (raids)
-Lack of experience gained in 50 dungeons, this would add a LOT of variety in to what you can do to go from 50-60
-The current maps (not the landscape, the actual maps)
-Method of gathering and crafting (i like GW2 style gathering and Wildstar style crafting)

and so on.

Good, balanced post, I agree with practically all you said, both on the "like" and "dislike" side.

I'd add on "like":
- Day/night cycle, weather effects
- The Beast Tribes and how they talk
- Most of the music

On "dislike":
- Not being able to group with your chocobo when soloing dungeons, or having a minion out at the same time, etc.
- Too many (and slow) loading screens
- FATEs should be more meaningful and rewarding, at all levels (I am tired of going to a FATE and finding nobody there!)

And yes, the current maps are really lousy, and make the world look smaller than it actually is. Make them WoW-style. Map the whole of a zone, and make us discover where we can or can't go.

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Originally Posted by Goodberry

Good, balanced post, I agree with practically all you said, both on the "like" and "dislike" side.

I'd add on "like":
- Day/night cycle, weather effects
- The Beast Tribes and how they talk
- Most of the music

On "dislike":
- Not being able to group with your chocobo when soloing dungeons, or having a minion out at the same time, etc.
- Too many (and slow) loading screens
- FATEs should be more meaningful and rewarding, at all levels (I am tired of going to a FATE and finding nobody there!)

And yes, the current maps are really lousy, and make the world look smaller than it actually is. Make them WoW-style. Map the whole of a zone, and make us discover where we can or can't go.

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The loading screens are an unfortunate result of PS3 limitations. Even 1.0 had them between regions, they were just hidden in the form of walking through straight tunnels for a bit.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

The loading screens are an unfortunate result of PS3 limitations. Even 1.0 had them between regions, they were just hidden in the form of walking through straight tunnels for a bit.

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I'm pretty sure that was not just ps3 limitations. There was hardly anything in the zones at all, just a lot of repeated sections. The more you stuff in the map the more that cuts into resources, and I don't think square has the best streaming solution yet, XV looks like it is trying to step into that open world thing more.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

-Tab targeting

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You know, I've been seeing this comment a lot but I don't understand it. I personally hate the tab targeting in this game - it's so unintuitive to select enemies left to right as opposed to closest (and then left to right). I have messed with the settings but I can't get this tab targeting to work the way I'm used to in other games. It makes PvP nearly impossible.

What is it about this tab targeting that is so good? I really don't understand it and after years still can't get used to it.

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Originally Posted by Souljacker

You know, I've been seeing this comment a lot but I don't understand it. I personally hate the tab targeting in this game - it's so unintuitive to select enemies left to right as opposed to closest (and then left to right). I have messed with the settings but I can't get this tab targeting to work the way I'm used to in other games. It makes PvP nearly impossible.

What is it about this tab targeting that is so good? I really don't understand it and after years still can't get used to it.

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Sorry for the misunderstanding. I like tab targeting (GW2, WoW, FFXIV) as a system over action combat (Tera/Wildstar). Personally, I like the hybrid of GW2 more and the better algorithm of WoW.

I love XIV for what it is, and it's in a good place in terms of population. If you look back at each patch in the 2.0 series there is no shortage of new content that was added and the amount of people in Heavensward areas reflects that.

For most of us many of our experiences in XIV are positive enough to keep us playing to the level cap, however many people myself included are asking "what can make this game better?"

It's not that there isn't an abundance of content to do, only that it's becoming predictable. This thread would have died out long ago if the playerbase did not want anything different added along the side of what we're getting currently. The general consensus seems to be that we want diversity in content. Long-staying content that is different and unique would certainly keep more people satisfied with what is available if it's well planned and executed because it shows. The more things we have to chose from in between patches the longer we can stay subscribed and happy.

Constructive criticism does not mean we hate the game, we all want our voice in improving it to the best it can be. SE has built a solid foundation for XIV, now is the time to take some risks while Heavensward is still fresh and the playerbase is ready to accept something new.

TL;DR: None of us want to spend all our time on the forums criticizing the game when we could be praising it for its innovations, however there's just none to be had right now and resting on its laurels isn't going to keep the game going in the right direction.

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Originally Posted by Darsho

Constructive criticism does not mean we hate the game, we all want our voice in improving it to the best it can be. SE has built a solid foundation for XIV, now is the time to take some risks while Heavensward is still fresh and the playerbase is ready to accept something new.

TL;DR: None of us want to spend all our time on the forums criticizing the game when we could be praising it for its innovations, however there's just none to be had right now and resting on its laurels isn't going to keep the game going in the right direction.

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While you're right, there are plenty of people that aren't at all interested in being constructive. They don't care about feasibility, or interest, and frequently don't suggest anything at all beyond "Fix it or I quit."

Was discussing it with people the other day and I still don't understand why raids were set the way they are. Making an easy mode of Alexander (my opinion) was a big mistake. Right now we have it as normal is way too easy and savage is too punishing for normal groups. They should of gone off WoW's design on this and made Alex(Normal) on the difficulty of say Final Coil and then they could of gone out even more with Alex(Savage) to truly save it for the best of the best while still offering a lesser yet hard challenge for people who are not as hardcore.

I have seen so many groups break up because Savage is not just hard, but ridiculous come AS3/4. Which is fine, Savage should be like that. The complaint lies more in Alex(Normal) being way too easy. People will argue and say "Well some of us wanted a story mode", and you got it, but you got stupid easy fights in return that require little to no thought process. Normal should be Final Coil level and if people don't want to endure it, then they can wait till the next patch where an echo buff and gear carry would be a thing for it. There has to be a middle ground here, and right now the raids are too extreme in their direction.

Right now, Heavensward brings to the table well...the same thing. Just now people do not feel like raiding anymore and are now bored with the content given. 3.1 sounds enticing, but I think people will blow over it quick and we will be right back here discussing the expansion's future. I don't have a solution to make it better, but developers should acknowledge that they can't keep doing these predictable patches forever. Like I said before, I know its very hard to pull off, but I think they have the capability to do it, they just need to work more outside the box.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

While you're right, there are plenty of people that aren't at all interested in being constructive. They don't care about feasibility, or interest, and frequently don't suggest anything at all beyond "Fix it or I quit."

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Although constructive criticism is more valuable to the development team, not everyone has great ideas of how to fix something. They aren't professionals in the field and have no experience in the matter. All they know is they are unhappy with things as they are.

It's more valuable to a company to have people voice negative opinions than to be amiable and quit without saying a word. So yes, constructive criticism > "fix it or I quit" > quitting silently

they HAD thier chance to work "outside the box" WITH heavensward afaik. but instead they made the HUGE mistake of focusing many dev resources on basicly useless leveling fluff and wasted 5 dungeons there which could for example all been part of expert roulette. level cap raises are not good for modern mmos. yoschi copied something from wow here that was garbage mostly. raising the max level is just a paid for endgame reset basicly. if they spend all thier resources on endgame content instead we wouldnt be in the situation we are now.

lets see if they learn for 4.0 from this. until then dont expect ANYTHING big or new sadly because not enough resources.

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Originally Posted by Windklinge

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I don't think they lack resources. I think if anything, it would be their time constraints with 3-4 month patch releases. Don't quote me on that though.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

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I dislike when people keep saying it wasn't a mistake, it wasn't. Many, many others enjoy the option to enjoy the content with a group of randoms, or just FC mates that don't often play together. I can guarantee that more people are happy with it than aren't, you have to appease the majority rather than the minority, this is especially true with the lack of any endgame content in FFXIV but those two dungeons and RavEX. As for your idea, that would have been pointless as the reason Normal exists is for the players who don't want to spend potentially 100+ of hours raiding to see the content, and the reason we never got Final Coil Savage was the lack of interest with Second Coil Savage. I think Alexander normal should have been tuned to the difficulty of Ravana EX though, maybe a little higher, but it's good for the mid core player.

The best solution would be to have Alexander (Story/Normal), Alexander (Hard/Extreme) and Alexander (Savage).

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Originally Posted by Colorful

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Sorry, but there should be some content in the game that requires more effort and end game raids should be it. People should realize that and I don't think they are entitled to a near no-thought required fights to get it. People should be challenged, and the best solution to a midcore/hardcore set up is the way I explained it. If people want to be carried and want an experience like a story mode can wait till the echo buff is implemented and gear can carry you through mechanics.

Right now, the only actual hard content in this game is Alex(Savage), and that is it. Pretty sad.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

That's because that is *not* the point, at all. But, if you're bored, playing something else for a while would seem to be a logical suggestion. If you have more time to play than I do, thats great, go enjoy yourself, but likeI said, if you are bored, play something else a while. Coming to the general forum and demanding a disproportionate development effort be made to satisfy raiders deserves a respone from non raiders wondeting why even more should devoted to sections of the game that only a small fraction ofpeople willsee.

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I hate to be that guy, and I rarely point out peoples LS, but you don't have a 60
and know nothing about what's wrong with end-game right now. Spoilers! It's the same crap you dealt with in 2.0.
I was told "End-game is where it begins!" Yeah the ride up to it was fun, actually getting there isn't.
No one dislikes the game here, we're just upset that we're stuck in the same limbo as 2.0.
But I can see, we've all been saying the same things to you and you go right back and picking and pointing
out posts. Of course you won't talk about end-game, you aren't even there. Why are you even talking to us if that's what this topic's about?

In reply to replies, I'll admit I'm simply the odd duck out on this. Even though I understand why people want to criticize and all that, I still question as to why they spend more time complaining about the game rather than praising it every now and then to let the developers know that yes, they actually did enjoy the game despite not liking certain parts. (As I said before, I've never liked mixed messages) Yes, I know, since every person is different, there's going to be a lot of conflict amongst the fans and that it happens quite frequently. (Hence the TV Tropes "Unpleasable Fanbase" and "Broken Base", along with other examples from there)

I once wrote in a different forum under a thread title called "Unpopular Opinions" in which everyone there spoke out what they felt was something that the entire rest of the population would disagree with them on. In there, I wrote up about why developers and artists will never appeal to everyone period and why listening to the fanbase isn't always a good idea. But I won't bother re-posting that here.

Alright. Think I've said all I've wanted to say for this thread. Mind you, just because I hardly ever complain myself about aspects of the game, doesn't mean I don't have my own complaints about the games I play. I've just come to accept the fact that every game I play will never be 100% perfect. (Perhaps to a fault)

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Originally Posted by Velhart

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Which is why I suggested implementing 3 difficulties, you have something for every group of people. I'd personally love for Alexander with the difficulty slightly above RavEX to be implemented, but I know plenty of people who are content with just seeing the story. I don't understand the mentality that people like yourself seem to have, why restrict people from seeing content? It has no effect on you, not from what I can tell anyway.

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Originally Posted by Colorful

Which is why I suggested implementing 3 difficulties, you have something for every group of people. I'd personally love for Alexander with the difficulty slightly above RavEX to be implemented, but I know plenty of people who are content with just seeing the story. I don't understand the mentality that people like yourself seem to have, why restrict people from seeing content? It has no effect on you, not from what I can tell anyway.

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Your Miqo'te is such a cutie pie.

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Originally Posted by Mikhaill

I hate to be that guy, and I rarely point out peoples LS, but you don't have a 60
and know nothing about what's wrong with end-game right now.

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Then don't be that guy.

I've played end game content before in other games and this one. The truth is, it's not enjoyable to me, its stressfuly and full of people with pissy attitudes. I've lost count of the friends I have seen chewed up and spat out by the end-game in this game. If you enjoy running and rerunning the same subset of content to obtain the best gear, go for it. But don't expect sympathy after you beat it and get bored.

I have no problem with there being good, long lasting end-game content, I've previoussly said that I think Savage should have been more different from normal (same story content as normal though). I get that many raiders feel that there is not enough content worthy of their skills. Guess what, many other players consider that ARR locked too much content behind stupidly difficult (or rather, pointlessly punishing) content that later had to be nerfed - consequently pissing off raiders. I'll not go through the entire argument over putting story behind such gates, except to say it's an annoying way to do things and annoys far more players than it pleases.

What gets on my nerves though is topic like this where poster after poster whines and complains that the game as a whole is no good because there is insufficient raiding/end game content for their liking. The game as a whole has tons of content for players of all levels, but if you restrict your view to content suited to specific groups such as raiders or top tier crafters, there is less to see.

Of course there is, because SE knows from their player data that small minorities of players engage such content. So they make a little bit for each subset, and a lot for the majority. If more people played end game, there would be more end-game. But as long as end-game is really only accessible to those who spend most of their play time farming tokens or gear to gear up, or running the raids with their statics, the difficulty of forming or joining a static, and the discipline of gear farming will prevent many very capable, skilled, players from joining in. I see the current end-game structure as a positive thing in the longterm because it gives many more players a chance to experience the end-game(albeit a 'lite' version). Without engaging more players in the end-game, future development effort wouLd be harder to justify.

Had Alex Savage been sufficiently different in terms of battle/boss content such that it wasn't simply a carbon copy of Alex normal, I suspect raiders woukd be happier with it. Were there a bonus fight at the end, not included in normal, I'd bet people would be happier still. I'm not arguing against changes to improve matters, but I do argue against the idea that much more dev time is needed for end-game exclusive content, because that would take away from the rest of the game and penalize everyone. I agree that with improvements end-game would be better, but it's not an all or nothing thing.

Finally, I can't stand the whining about having nothing to do except logging in, capping tomes, running a raid that uson farm and logging out. I can't stand it because it's litterally untrue. There is plenty to do, but in truth this having nothing to do us a personal situation created by the player restricting their selection of things to do. This kind of whining also creates a false impression that the game lacks content, when in fact it does not, though it has limited end-game content.

When I replied To the OP it seemed that the discussion was broader than end-game, the title of the thread certainly is. The topic has drifted to a far more end-game centric discussion than it was at the outset. Many people have replied to me in that context, failing to realize, or care, that I am replying to the broader discussion. It's pointless of me to reply further in this topic, because minds are closed and opinions set in stone, so I won't reply further.

In conclusion, this discussion could have had a far more constructive course, but as long as people adopt a position that is inflexible and summed up by the thought that any concession is equivalent to capitulation to the opposing view, nothing will be gained.

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Originally Posted by Kaurie

2. Caps on spending tomes rather than earning them. This game encourages you to have alternate jobs up until it comes to gearing, then it's one job or else. This really sucks if you need to swap jobs for savage (PLD to DRK for example or even cross roles, which is not uncommon as people try to optimize their teams). If I want to farm esoterics so I can gear my SCH in addition to my SMN, I don't see why I am prevented. However, I understand not wanting us to have full esoteric'd SMN on week 1, thus cap spending per job at 450 per week.
3. Add earning esoterics to things in the open world like fates, mix it up in what we're doing
4. . . . . and alternate ways to obtain different gear sets

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Yes, yes, yes, please. Love the spending cap per job idea. Would love to see SE encourage people to play different jobs instead of hindering it. I mean yeah, we can level jobs to 60 right now but really can only do the two dungeons and Alex easy with them.

Alexander really is disappointing compared to Coil... First impressions of the story version were good, but it was so damned easy. Fun, but easy (which meant the fun wore off quickly...), the real version however... Next time SE, don't start with a pure DPS check... My first time in the Binding Coil was nothing special, but ADS actually being more than just "Can you DPS enough before it overwhelms you?" was nice. Silencing High Voltage was by no means the most challenging mechanic in the world, but it was the first point in A Realm Reborn where you had to go in with some actual planning. One person could not Silence every High Voltage, you had to set up two people and decide who Silences first. Again, by no means was that challenging, but it is worlds better than Fausts' simple DPS check... This game is already too reliant on DPS checks, having a massive one as the first impression for the real Alexander just ruined my opinion of the raid. Add to that the underwhelming story (compared to Coil, at least) and lack of rewards (since I have no real interest in playing the "I do this raid for gear so I can do this raid!" game), and Alexander just sucks IMO...

I think they released the two version in the wrong order, though obviously they had to release casual-Alex first because Heavensward had virtually no endgame content, but hopefully they can correct this for the second arm and core. Having the story-mode first has just cheapened the real version, IMO. When I was first doing A1, I was looking at it and thinking "I bet they do this for the Savage version!", and sure enough, they did. That instantly made A1S much easier and more routine, which just added to its long list of problems. You know what I'd rather see? Slap the Savage mode in first and have a system in place that monitors each servers completion of it. Moment a group on the server clears it, BAM! That server now has access to the story-mode version. Rather than clearing the story-mode and having the Wandering Minstrel unlock the real version, have the Wandering Minstrel unlock the story-mode when someone clears the real version. Perhaps even directly reference the Free Company that cleared it in the quest, so rather than the Wandering Minstrel recounting something the player has already done, he is recounting something the top raiders have already done so everyone else can enjoy the content. That would be far more interesting IMO.

Alexander aside, Ravana and Bismark suck. Ravana was OK until Esoterics were introduced, but now they're both redundant trash. Did anyone at SE even plan their release? You know what would have been really good here? Another Primal Focus quest. Seriously, how did you not put this in? It wouldn't be a massive piece of content, but it would at least have made Ravana and Bismark relevant for a while longer, if we had a quest to clear them each week for either a i190 weapon, or i200. That's far from perfect, but at least it's something. The fights themselves were a blast compared to Ifrit and co, but they had zero staying power... Bismark especially; Cleared once to unlock Ravana then forgotten... Poor whale...

Speaking of Esoterics... I'm so glad they've kept tomestones exactly the same as they were since 2.0! So glad... Yes, that was sarcasm... Bad enough you only offer two dungeons to farm these damn things in, but it's still a simple "tomestones for gear" system? I'm sure lazy people would hate this, but can't you just add an extra step in already? Bad enough artifact gear is coming from tomestones now, rather than a unique questlines... Couldn't you have just added a semi-repeatable quest like the Relic Reborn one, in which we obtain this gear in an interesting manner? I know we need to stagger how quickly we can obtain this gear, since it's actually relevant gear this time, but Rowena's Tokens (Esoterics) would fix that. The gear would still cost tomestones with that, but rather than it just being click and collect, we now get some interesting content thrown on. An expansion of the tomestone system, as it were...

Oh right, A Relic Reborn... Omitting that from Heavenswards release was a big mistake (an expansion you've had years to work on has less content than your initial launch, what is this?), and now it might not even be in 3.1? Jesus Christ... Bad enough you looked at 2.0, where you had to delay Crystal Tower for balance reasons, and for some reason decided all the complaining that went on then should mean Void Ark should be in 3.1, but we don't even get Relics? A Relic Reborn was the highlight of the entire Relic process in 2.x, every step after that sucked in comparison. I really hope there is a reason the Heavensward Relics are delayed until 3.11. Please at least make the whole thing amazing this time, not just the first step...

What else is there... Just Treasure Maps and Hunts left? Treasure Maps are OK. I'm still annoyed that they aren't more readily available to do because of that 18h lock out, but they're good. Hunts... Don't get me started on Hunts... I've ranted on these plenty in the past, so I wont repeat myself much, basically these should be more like Final Fantasy XIs Zeni Notorious Monsters and less like FATE bosses... They should be force popped and tuned around a group of people doing them, rather than the entire server. Let us work up the Ranks, by first doing the Mark Bills to get some points, to then buy some pop items, to pop A Ranks and gain new pop items for S Ranks, for example. If Hunts were like that, I'd have loved that you locked the Law upgrade items behind them. More boring FATE bosses, minus the FATE, for the server to mindless zerg down though? Snore.

As a complete side point though; Guildhests... What happened to Guildhests? This is like the unsung hero of A Realm Reborn which has just been forgotten about. If they had the same rewards as FATEs, I'd have grinding the heck out of them instead of FATEs. No new Guildhests for Heavensward though, that was a shame... I'm really pretty disappointed to see Guildhests forgotten about, they showed real potential that never really got realized. I'd have loved to have seen some form of endgame-centric Guildhests introduced... Same for Levequests, come to think of it... Those Temple Leves got me interested when I was reading the patch notes, instead they're just a quick burn for your allowance with no real reward (ten times the cost, for three times the reward of a regular one...), that was really disappointing...

Last thing I can think of would be old content... I love that you can do it with Undersized Parties now, and that is probably the best thing Heavensward has added (though annoyingly it isn't possible for Heavensward content). Shame you can't do it to EXP, but it was a great way to make the old content fun again. Second Coil might be a complete joke at Lv60, but doing it with a small party? That's an absolute blast. Still, I wish there was a way to get Esoterics from old content (variety in obtaining Esoterics being a huge issue with the game currently). Again, I really like Treasure Maps, so why not add those to old content? Cleared a Coil? Special Lv60 Allagan Map which can reward 10 Esoterics or something. That Crystal Tower weekly quest? Slap an Allagan Map as a reward for that... The Extreme Primals? Why not give Ifrit an Inferno Map to his drop table. Theme them around where they come from, maybe don't even make them Maps at all, make them instances (endgame Guildhest style content!). That is the kind of content I expect from an expansion. Stuff that doesn't just replace the old content, but expands upon it and keeps it slightly relevant.

All I feel we got with Heavensward was A Realm Reborn 2.0; Wanderer's Palace/Amdapor Keep (Nevereap/Fractal), Bismark and Ravana (Garuda and Titan), and Alexander (Coil). Never mind the quality of the content, there is out right less of it. One less Primal and no Relic weapons... Great job with the story, because that's the only thing which saves Heavensward right now in my eyes... Once I'd powered through that (and it's not like I rushed through it), Heavensward just got weaker and weaker... Seal Rock is perhaps the only thing keeping me around right now, congratulations on finally making PvP the main draw of the game, I guess? I know I'm in the minority when I say that I think PvP is a great addition to this game, but PvP in this game is still so damn flawed... Wont bother talking about that outside the PvP section though. Seal Rock is keeping me entertained until 3.1 can (hopefully) offer something. Guess Free Company Airships are as well, but I'm not going to kid myself; I'm in the vast minority of people who actually get to play with those.

Guess I didn't really say anything about the new Jobs... Astrologian is OK (though Cards and Nocturnal Sect needs changes I've mentioned in a different thread). Dark Knight is great. Machinist is a waste of space. I don't mean that because of how the Job performs, it's fine in that regard, I mean why add a new Job when its a 1:1 copy of an existing one? Bard and Machinist being so similar really is a problem IMO. I thin it would have been better to remove Wanderer's Minuet from Bard completely, in favor of more actual Songs, while Machinist instead takes up the Bow-Mage role, with the casting time being "reloading" the weapon, rather than something attached to Gauss Barrel. Would have meant Machinist could have been the TP using version of Black Mage, while having more weapon attachments to make it unique, instead of it just being Bard with a gun and turret...

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...rent_state_is/

For people still in doubt that this problem discussed here is by a minority of players. Same topics being talked different community

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Originally Posted by Evtrai

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...rent_state_is/

For people still in doubt that this problem discussed here is by a minority of players. Same topics being talked different community

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This topic has come up on the BG forums, as well. Not sure if it's allowed to "advertise" other FFXIV forums here or I would put the link. Easy as to go check Bluegartr general discussion sub forum.