Not sub-based, it was built around PLEX, barely qualifies as an RPG. Try again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magis
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03-07-2015, 06:21 AMDuuude007
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03-07-2015, 06:26 AMDoctorPepper
Time to let this one die I think.. 37 pages of people repeating themselves over and over again.
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03-07-2015, 06:31 AMMomomiMomiHow many times are you going to edit that and still have it wrong?Quote:
Originally Posted by Duuude007
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03-07-2015, 06:52 AMMagisEVE is sub based though and I don't see why it wouldn't qualify as an RPG, especially since it's the most "free" (as in you can do anything) RPG ever made.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duuude007
But yes, it was built around PLEX unlike FFXIV. -
03-07-2015, 07:05 AMIntakiConsidering the degree of customization and character building that exists in the game, some might argue EVE is more of an RPG than FFXIV.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duuude007
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03-07-2015, 07:09 AMDuuude007Its also a successful sandbox MMO, something that flies in the face of what many companies consider realistic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Magis
About as unlikely as a failing Sub based MMO closing doors for a year only to come back 'reborn', continuing to be subscription exclusive. -
03-07-2015, 07:18 AMElleoille
I played Eve for years and don't ever recall seeing ISK spammers. RMT is a big no-no and will get your account banned. If they are there they work very quietly.
In this game, it's pretty horrible. The farmers need to be put out of business, and the best way to do that is to remove the need to use them. Or at least a way to permanently block them from chat. It's SO ANNOYING!
It's actually my only gripe with this game. Well, that and skin textures and lighting could use an update to stay competitive with the new mmos coming out. Characters still look really good though, and the world looks amazing :)
Limited to 3 posts? Blah! Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duuude007
I wouldn't prefer "cash shop gil" because I like a game with a dynamic player-run economy, but they really need to do something about the gil sellers. -
03-07-2015, 07:23 AMDuuude007Because of more customization? What does that have to do with RPGs and not thousands of other non- RPGs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Intaki
This is tangential to the topic, but whatever. I consider it an RPG if it features story-driven development of persistent characters via the making of consequential choices. But your opinion is different, great, let's move on.
...By encouraging people to spend money for gil? Its a problem, let's cut out the eye to spite the face.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elleoille
RMT is a problem because of people who want instant gratification, and are often willing to cheat to get what they want.
Legalizing RMT is a way to cheat without penalty.
How is this good again? -
03-07-2015, 07:36 AMCeodore
No to this whole thread. THIS is not the way to deal with RMT gil sellers. Referring to the economy, let's put things this way. There are no gil fountains. The gil being sold by these RMTs is not being made from any super easy farmable content, because if it were, anyone could do the same content and make their business useless. These sellers are coming from accounts that are being hacked, stripped, and abandoned. So the gil they are selling is just stolen, and inflation of the economy because of it is no more drastic as the inflation of it from normal players. So no, there is no economic impact other than them selling gil that was just taken out of circulation. To even think that they are getting this gil from some magical source of super gil production is hilarious and down right moronic. PLEX on the other hand would have a major economic impact, especially since you can not base the game's economic health just on the gil in circulation, but also the items in circulation. As you add something that can be sold that was bought with real world money, you drive up the supply of an item, but when an item is deemed necessary enough (i.e. play time), then demand is never ending, thus supply can never be high enough, and inflation results due to the currency being used to originally develop these items is not from the game, but instead from another source outside the game. This results in secondary inflation that can not be reversed or kept in balance, and the economy will spin out of control. This has been seen in other games with similar systems, even those that don't sell game time. TERA is one I use to play, where the economy due to the in game store has become terrible, however, Tera is a free to play game. Guild Wars 2 is another issue. Their system allows you to by pass the market boards all together and allow you to directly convert real money into store currency and then into game currency. The result: real money still equals the same amount of store currency, but the store currency has become 50 times the value of in game currency, allowing players to directly inject real world cash into in game currency and drive up the economy. The point I am making is that these systems have no control. Even if the game were free to play, the point is that any system that allows real world money to be injected into an online game via items or currency results in an out of control system that destroys the economy and results in massive inflation of prices. Things that were once important or that held value that can not be traded on the market boards (like housing) would lose all form of importance. No gil sink what-so-ever can counter act a force of another economy (especially one so strong as a real world economy) impacting on a game economy.
Second, if you don't have the time to play this game enough to make the gil with effort, then you don't deserve the big shiny mansion with the swag. The housing wards are limited enough as it is, and only the players and free companies that put in the effort and time should be recognized. Joe Schmoe who works 2 jobs, no wife, and no kids and plays 30 minutes a week shouldn't hoard a large house in The Mist which he visits once a week to throw his 100 billion gil into his retainer's bank. The house could be in the hands of a free company which spent months and thousands of hours running content, selling items, farming nodes, and liquidating their entire company chest to come up with the gil. They are active, and will make a proper representation in the game.
On the topic of buying runs, coils, turns, primals, whatever, a system needs to be in place to prevent this type of crap anyways, but that's neither here nor there. First of all, the system for the Final Coils is retarded. 4 boss battles being separated into 4 raid fights much similar to the primals is down right sloppy design. First, Second, and Final turns of Bahamut should have been dungeons with properly hard trash pulls in between fights. Second, the looting system for coils is also a sham too. They got it right with CT and ST when they first came out and also WoD currently. There should be no reason that you can not run content, ever. It turns it from what could be a fun experience where you go in to enjoy the fights to a once a week grind fest with a disappointing loot system. What coils should have been was three 8 man raids, much like CT, ST, and WoD, with 4 bosses, some interesting trash, no lock out, but restrictions on loot limiting players to 1 piece of gear per week. Your entire raid can then work together until everyone has their piece for the week and still go for the challenge and fun of the fights if they want to. But no, what has been introduced instead is essentially 12 primal fights and limited visuals of pieces of Dalamud. I hope SE does Alexander differently.
Now, back on topic. PLEX systems simply don't work because there is simply no way of controlling it without completely breaking it. Other ways other games have tried to control this system are things like limiting how many time scrolls you can buy per month, but that doesn't stop someone from saving up the time scolls then flooding the market all at once, or purchasing multiple accounts to flood the market in other ways. Further, these systems just provide alternative avenues for RMT gil sellers to infect the markets, and obtain mass quantities of gil but now in legal ways. Even if their profit margins are minimal, they will still take advantage of a system to make a profit. Sell a time scroll at market price, then sell the gil back to players at just over the price of the time scroll. The gil still has no real set value, because the market fluctuates and changes that value. A RMT gil seller can also crash a time scroll market, driving the prices down by purchasing time scrolls with stolen credit card information. The result is a massive rebound on the market where prices sky rocket again past what they were at the start as the bubble pops. As players have more time to play to generate more gil, and with more gil in circulation, prices increase to a worse state. This was easily represented by the housing bubble, where the ability to get a house became simpler and easier, requiring a lower down payment, but then the bubble popped, and interest rates increased, monthly payments increased, and hundreds of thousands of houses were foreclosed on. If you drive down a market, you create a bubble, and when the bubble pops, the result is a massive rebound in the opposite direction. There is no perfect system where the prices can just go down and down without any consequences to any of the parties involved, it just simply doesn't exist. An ideal system is one that remains steady, with little to no fluctuation, where no one wins or loses too much or too little. Money remains in circulation without massive injections of revenue, and the wheels turn. When any of these variables are out of sync, the system loses balance. Inject too much money, the price of the product increases. Inject too much product, the price of the product plummets until supplies run out or get low, at which point, the rebound is worse. Take oil prices. The prices 20 years ago were below a dollar because so much of it was readily available, but the moment it began to become scarce, the oil prices sky rocketed, and had a massive effect on other products as well. When you tinker with a system that effects other systems, then you change all of those systems. In this cast, time scrolls would be oil prices. As you inject them, you cause their prices to lower, causing people to have more play time, making their current play time have less apparent value, and driving down the prices of all other markets in the game. The time they spent getting those items to sell now seem less valuable, so the items themselves now hold less value. However, as the time scrolls become more scarce, and believe me, they will become more scarce, because no one source can supply enough time scrolls for all the players to buy, the value of peoples' time increases, increasing the value perceived on the items they are selling and inflating the prices. There is no simple way of counter acting this system other than not tampering with it in stupid ways such as real world into game world exchanges. Gil sinks are only so strong, and their acceptance by your player base is minimal at best. No one likes to feel that their money, in game or real, was a waste. I myself am guilty of sinking gil into some things too, but for the most part, I try to avoid such things.
TLDR: Remove all forms of cash shop to in game transactions, and do not introduce any other forms of such systems, as they will not fix anything, period. -
03-07-2015, 09:06 AMIntaki"Dear Giant Corporation, please stop making money. I'd really appreciate it. Thanks."Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceodore
Good luck with that appeal of yours. I'm sure they'll take it into serious consideration. -
03-07-2015, 09:38 AMMageBlack
^^
/End Thread -
03-07-2015, 10:06 AMQiLymePye
OK preypacer. Nice post, but here's the thing. Im gonna play devils advocate here. Lets use your example of 10 hr gametime split into 5 2hr sessions. Now that would be nice to do, except that alot of the end game stuff has you going back to do previous content, which takes longer and longer to wait just to play for. So person doing 5- 2hr sessions spends half of each session just waiting to play.
Now this is what I want alot of you all to know, especially you preypacer, how long do you think this game will last if all of the players that can't sit for 10hrs at a time said "screw this game"? What percentage of the "entire" player base would SE lose? I will say at least half. Once again, SE is a company in the business of making games "for Profit". If half of the players left this game, what are SE's options? increase remaining players subs by 25 to 50 percent? Then some of those players will leave? Or maybe downsize, so you get expansions maybe 1 every 3 years or patches 1 to 2 times a year? What you all need to understand is that money talks. And SE and all of us players that like this game need this game to survive. So telling people that if they can't afford the sub to quit, or if they can't afford the time to play to quit is not healthy for a business, which SE is. When you are in the business of making money, you want to ensure profits. SE wants to continue to be profitable, so guess what? They will keep listening to people, not just the ones that feel like the game is ok how it is and feel entitled to keep it that way, but they are also gonna listen to the people that are not happy as well.
Everybody pays the same basic sub price, no one has more pull than the other, but there is one group that is bigger than the other in this game, and if I had to decide between alienating half of my profit margin or a smaller percentage, best believe im gonna go with the one making me the most money. And right now, SE is trying to get even more casuals in this game, via free login weekends, etc. Remember who is keeping this game afloat people. -
03-07-2015, 10:17 AMQiLymePye
And can someone please tell me...What is p2w in "this" game? Im confused. You can't buy an uber-powerful weapon that slays any primal in one hit. You can't buy armor that blocks 100 percent damage. What would people be buying to win? Explain? A house? Ok. Lets say said person buys a house. They win? Do they watch credits roll and quit game and end sub? What do you win in this game? If you play for vanity, ok? Is there a top prize only given to one person who has all vanity items? You buy coil runs. Who wins in that situation? Does the person doing the coil wins? Does that mean everyone else can't do same coil? Does that mean I lost because someone bought a coil run? Many of you don't understand what P2W means. It means you "must pay" in order to win or beat the game or to advance in the game. That's what the term means.
Ask yourself this question: "I don't pay, can I win and succeed in this game?" If the answer is yes, then "ITS NOT P2W". Come on people. This game is far from p2w. You don't have to spend RL money in this game to be successful, so no, its not P2W. Now if watching someone buy a coil run hurts your ego, then that's all it is, an ego buster. -
03-07-2015, 10:19 AMPreypacer.Quote:
Originally Posted by QiLymePye
Put together a group. Arrange a static. Allow for the fact that, ya know what... things just might not come together in a given session, and you might have to put it off 'til the next one. That's life. Guaranteed, whatever it is you're trying to get done... you'll get it done, so long as you stick with it, and don't just go into "whining on forums" mode when something doesn't go your way.
Work on something else in the meantime. It's all grist for the mill anyway.
If you're grown enough to have a life so full that time is so limited, chances are you're grown enough to realize sometimes things just don't go the way you want them to. It happens to me. It happens to everyone.
If that makes the game un-fun to play because you're unable to do things in the time-frame you want, within your schedule... then look for another game where you can. Or, just accept that, again, sometimes things just aren't going to go your way, and soldier on.
I spent a week trying to get a group for Twintania. Never did get one. Still need to do it... and I will. That's life. In the meantime, there's plenty else I can be doing.
It is just plain irrational to expect a game to deliver exactly the experience you want, exactly on your terms, all the time. Especially when you bring other people into the mix, and limited time is a factor.
But you have to work around that. You can't expect the game to change to fit your personal circumstances.
A good RL friend of mine used to play FFXI. He had a full-time job, a wife, a child and a dog - as well as all that goes with it. His play time was limited to late nights, after the wife and child were in bed. Yet, he didn't go on forums, saying "Hey guys, I'm really busy, and this game's setup is inconvenient. You should change it to better accommodate me". Instead, he accomplished far more in FFXI than I ever did - and I had all the free time in the world, outside of a full-time job. Why? He focused, he worked out a plan around his schedule... and he got shit done. He completed all the main storylines (including CoP pre-nerf), and he ran a regular end-game group... all on a schedule of maybe a few hours at a time. And he's not a unique case.
It has been, and can be done.
The first critical step to making progress... is to stop making excuses why you can't. (I don't mean you personally by that :p).
I see what you're getting at, but there's no point in answering. It's all hypothetical "what-ifs", based on conjecture, and non-points.Quote:
Originally Posted by QiLymePye
Has it been a major problem for XIV so far? No.
Has it been a major issue for other MMOs? Not that I'm aware of. It wasn't in FFXI, and that game was even more demanding of time than XIV is.
There's no precedent for it.
Again, you're discussing hypotheticals here. There's no tangible indication that SE is having to deal with "alienating" any such group. People will stay or leave on their own terms, for their own reasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by QiLymePye
Should something like that become an issue demanding SE's attention, then they'll deal with it as they see fit. 'til then, there's nothing even to discuss. -
03-07-2015, 10:31 AMMagishttp://www.gifbin.com/bin/1233928590...20clapping.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by Preypacer
Sums up basically what everyone is feeling and thinking. -
03-07-2015, 10:34 AMCeodoreI am not asking them to stop making money. If you took it that way, you are drastically mistaken and obviously didn't read what I typed closely enough. I advised that introducing a system that converts real world money into in game money, whether it's directly or indirectly, they are going to have drastic effects to their in game economy. Doing something such as that would actually lead to them losing money since a game with a terrible in game economy will fail to bring in new players and result in a system that is being fed by mostly veteran players who will whittle away one by one until the game dies. They are more than welcome to introduce systems that allow players to buy extra perks for themselves... and I stress for themselves. The moment you start having players trade these services, you introduce the trade of real world money for the trade of in game money and your economy crashes. So by quoting what I said and then making your comment, you have demonstrated your lack of ability to read and understand English. Cash shop to in game transactions, since you obviously don't understand what that means, is the trade of cash shop items for in game currency, also known as indirect cash to in game currency transfer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Intaki
I don't type this stuff up for the hell of it out of some small minded attempt to appeal to the game developers. It's out of a legitimate, and actually educated sense of understanding economic principles as well as how money flows through a system with all its complex variables. You want to look at SE's bottom dollar for the quarterly mark, then you demonstrate your short sightedness to look beyond that to view the company's future well being. This game is not a necessity, and it can die at the drop of a hat due to real problems that affect every player, and the health of the in game economy is one of the biggest issues to take into consideration, since once you plummet this kind of system into chaos, returning it to order is almost impossible. If you think otherwise, then you are very mistaken. -
03-07-2015, 10:59 AMFyceYou have to ask yourself why you are playing the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by QiLymePye
For the vast majority, the final answer will be "for progression".
This is not a competitive game, so there is nothing to win "against" another player per se. But this is still a massively multiplayer game where people play and progress at a set pace.
By having the possibility to buy gils with real money, you can then afford some skip in the "progress... process". Some parts of the game become bound to the amount of gils you can buy, instead of being linked to a set number of average hours of play.
This create inequalities between the players who buy gils and the players who don't.
Since this MMORPG is very much a "theme park" with a lot of aspects to it, not everything use gils as a "source of progress". But you still have the housing, the relic (hi materia IV!), or even buying coil runs (with loot), etc. The most important being crafting and buying mats.
So, by allowing the purchase of gils with real money, you give some players, not everyone, the power to skip what can be cosidered the core of the game: progression, thus, creating inequalities inside your playerbase.
Since this is not a competitive game, progression is the only way a player can relate to another and compare himself with. It doesn't matter if these inequalities directly affect other players or not by influancing a straight "win" status. It's just more subtle than that in MMORPG, FFXIV in this particular case. -
03-07-2015, 11:09 AMHyrist
I'm not going to posture or make grand statements to include the visions of others.
I'm going to be simple, concise and stick to my personal opinion.
While Final Fantasy brand has a strong pull with me, and I do enjoy the majority of what this game has to offer me.
The moment it implements a system like this, it loses me as a customer. I was given the promise of no pay to win, I was given the promise of a subscription model game. The instant that's taken away from me, FFXIV won't see a dime from me.
Period. End of story. I've tried that pay model multiple times and I find myself detesting it every. Single. Time. I can only be burned so many times before I become shy of it, and I've breached that point. It's to the point that the subscription model and all it implies is a selling point to me. They renege on that, it becomes a deal-breaker. -
03-07-2015, 11:18 AMIntaki
And as fun as it is to argue with a bunch of hopelessly lost people, the most hilarious fact of the matter is that I don't even need to! If SE wasn't already seriously considering implementing this model already, the fact that Blizzard is taking the plunge is going to turn a lot of heads. Especially heads above Yoshi P.'s.
If you really, truly don't want this system to make it's way to FFXIV then you better find your favorite deity and pray real hard that it fails astronomically in WoW (it won't, by the way), because if it doesn't then you can be pretty sure that it's going to become industry standard.
I absolutely believe you believe this when you say this. The problem is that you clearly are possessed of zero understanding of how in-game economies actually work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceodore
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03-07-2015, 11:21 AMCeodoreYour heart is in the right place but for the wrong reasons. Inequality in a player base results no matter what you do or what systems you have. Cash shop or no cash shop, some people have more time, energy, and skill to do things that other players can't, and that's just fact of things. There is no getting around it, and there should not be a getting around it. disallowing a cash shop to in game currency transaction, or any kind of transaction from real world money to in game money directly or indirectly is a terrible idea for reasons beyond petty social status or e-peen. Further, such a system would not necessarily make everyone equals where we all hold hands together with all the best gears and loots anyways. So, yeah, you're on the right side of the fight but for wrong and useless reasons that other things besides a cash shop can affect and change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyce
You reference time played, well, I work a desk job that allows me hours upon hours of free time to play the game on my laptop. I also make enough from my job to also be able to sink hundreds of dollars into a cash shop and sky rocket my bank account. However my reasoning against it isn't about time, it's about the health of the game itself. No matter how much progress you have made personally, any player that comes along with hours of time to spend farming hunts, nodes, and mobs like me can catch up and surpass you in a matter of month while still holding down a 12 hour a day job and raiding for 2 hours at home. So relative progress compared to your fellow player is a useless example and reason for this argument. But, as I said, your heart is in the right place. -
03-07-2015, 11:25 AMMugiawaraHave fun with dead game part 2.0.Quote:
Originally Posted by Intaki
XIV CANNOT make anymore mistakes. They will be diggin' they own grave and there's no saving it at that point.
And to hell with WoW. It's incredibly tough to go against WoW.
I personally find it boring, shouldn't take 4-5 hours to level to 5.
If SE feels like taking a fall then by all means, but a lot of people will be up and gone with this. -
03-07-2015, 11:29 AMIntakiIndeed! Good thing a PLEX system wouldn't be!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugiawara
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03-07-2015, 11:29 AMCeodoreFirst, just because WoW implements a system that is cancerous to a game doesn't mean that everyone else will follow in their foot steps. Further, I have already laid out in absolute and sound detail how and why this system won't work. Your lack of understanding, while baffling, does not trouble me in the slightest. Further, you have failed to point out where I fail to understand the in game economy, and as someone who is in such support of a system that has time and again ruined a game into oblivion, the burden of proof as to how it won't this time as well as to how I am wrong lies on your shoulders.Quote:
Originally Posted by Intaki
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03-07-2015, 11:31 AMMugiawaraI think I speak for a lot of us when I say: "If it ain't broken, don't fix it."Quote:
Originally Posted by Intaki
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03-07-2015, 11:34 AMIntakiI bet you can't prove a single instance of this happening (because it never has).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceodore
Scenario: You have a fully functional 2013 Toyota Camry. You are given the option to trade it in for a 2016 Ferrari. What do you do?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugiawara
I say, if it ain't broke, make it even better. -
03-07-2015, 11:35 AMCeodoreIt's not even a question of if it isn't broken, it's a fact of don't make the break worse if it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mugiawara
Guild Wars 2, TERA, AION, just to name a few. All games that have had their economies ripped apart by an in game cash to game currency system and declined because of them. Guild Wars 2 was rumored to bring WoW down, and failed miserably. TERA had the same rumor, and is now also barely heard of. AION doesn't even need to be mentioned. All economies with cash shop items that can be sold between players, where their economies were ruined and now fail to bring in new players. There are also several other smaller titles out there that have never even made it off the ground because they had these systems from their launch, before an economy could even develop. So, burden of proof again, lies on you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Intaki
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03-07-2015, 11:47 AMDuuude007Worst analogy ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Intaki
A game is either designed around the freemium plan, or freemium features occur because of the failing state of a game. The third, far less rewarding option is as a so-called upgrade to a popular game. THAT has been what has been blamed for the cause of many game downfalls.
He was wrong to say 'to oblivion'. Even the crappiest games that went f2p still can be seen to have a couple dozen players on their servers. -
03-07-2015, 11:50 AMCeodoreA couple of dozen players on a server, a good game does not make. Unless all the players are Warren Buffet, and they purchase every cash shop item available every week. I might agree that a cash to in game currency transfer system might not be the single cause of a game's death, but you can not rule it out as a massive contributing factor.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duuude007
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03-07-2015, 11:52 AMIntaki
I played all of those games, and more, and I can say with considerable certainty that they "failed" (quotations because I have a feeling your metric for failure is pretty silly and wrong) on platforms of more than just economy. Wildstar for example had a great economy on its more populated servers, with CREDD cheap enough for the average player to earn, but pricey enough to be worth paying money for. It failed because of poor endgame execution, among other things. Guild Wars 2 (which I would frankly consider a success still, if not a blowout one) also suffered from that. Aion wasn't designed for the western audience it got released to and suffered, and Tera had very little going for it beyond a bunch of slut suits and good combat. To point at all these games and try to finger one facet of one facet of the entire gameplay experience as the culprit of failure is utterly laughable.
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03-07-2015, 11:56 AMCeodoreHowever to rule out their economies and the effect a cash shop to in game currency system had on them is idiotic. Guild Wars 2 started out big, but its player base has been steadily declining as the conversion rate of cash shop currency has increased. Tera's economy is the sole reason veteran players (like myself) don't return after a few weeks hiatus. The second they went to cash shop, the economy went straight south. You can't even think of purchasing any of the regular gear from its market because of how high the inflation went up, and this sky rocket happened precisely the same time that they introduced cash shop items that can be sold to other players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Intaki
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03-07-2015, 12:19 PMPandastirfryWell to stretch that anology.Quote:
Originally Posted by Intaki
You have a Camry, the insurance is affordable, you are given the option to get a 2016 Ferrari, your insurance goes through the roof and uour're forced to sell that Ferrari and buy a beater as a direct result.
What people are saying is the market inflation is the same as your car insurance I your analogy. While the car might be astheically better the financial fallout is not worth it.
In short, I'd keep the Camry because I can actually afford it in the long run. -
03-07-2015, 12:25 PMQiLymePye
Actually, Pacer, there is precedent. We are living in a different era now. When FFXI was released i think it was 15 yrs ago, MMO were known mainly to hardcore game players. I would wager that most of the people playing now wouldn't even touch FFXI. Its the generation we are in now. Instant gratification. And no matter how much we want things to stay the same, these "new consumers" are what companies are targeting. Just look at videogames in general from 15 yrs ago to now. I used to play game that were merciless, like ninja gaiden. Tell me some of you remember how hard that game was. Im not saying that anybody is right or wrong. Im saying that making videogames is a big business, bigger than it was even 15 yrs ago. And in order to stay in business, you have to attract clients/consumers.You have to realize that there is a larger percentage of casual gamers now than there was 15 yrs ago. And with the advent of new technology and instant success from instant gratification games added with the economy and the amount of time spent working/income generated, more people play games casually than ever before. So it makes sense that gaming companies want to cater to casuals as well because they want their business.
Now since we have established that this isn't the good old days of gaming anymore, you have to realize that its still a business. Yes it would be nice to tell people to go play other games if they don't have the time. But telling those same people that is no different than telling people that can't afford to pay sub to stop playing, or if you don't want to play the game and only want to craft stuff and collect vanity then play something else. But in a business sense, saying those things and alienating people will cost SE more money than they can afford. Its just the way gaming has evolved over the years. Its one of the reasons I believe we don't have as many jrpg's over here in the states on these next gen systems. Lots of new players don't wanna solve puzzles, don't wanna out-think their opponent, don't wanna grind for hours, days, and weeks. They want it now and they want it all. Just look at how games are made now vs. 15-20yrs ago. Not just graphics. Look at gameplay, look at story, look at mechanics. I remember playing Resident Evil on PSOne when it first came out. I didn't have memory card, didn't have strategy guides, didn't have gamefaqs.com and such. I had to learn and memorize the game and figure out its puzzles. Took me almost a year to beat that game. Now...take RE6....I beat that game in less than a week with all characters.
What I'm trying to get at is that game companies are definitely making games to cater more towards casual players (remember, Casual means time put into game, not difficulty) more because if a game takes too long to complete because u have to put too much time into it, the casual gamer is going to go to something else. Especially if that casual gamer is also looking for instant gratification in as little time as possible. That's why I keep hearing people say this game is a theme-park mmo, something for everyone. More money for SE, more updates, more patches, for us. Don't push away, belittle, or blast players that can't put as much time in the game as you, because those same players are paying the same amount for the sub as you, but are getting less. -
03-07-2015, 12:30 PMIntakiThis has been addressed repeatedly: the PLEX style system is incapable of creating inflation. The bots controlled by gil sellers who stand to suffer most from this system? THOSE create inflation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pandastirfry
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03-07-2015, 12:50 PMCeodoreWrong again. PLEX system is implemented. So Player 1 buys a scroll and puts it up for a price. Player 2, in order to not have to pay money to play, farms and farms gil which he might not have farmed otherwise to purchase. Suddenly, more gil is being sunk into the economy for only the purpose to buy game time, gil that might not have been farmed otherwise. Gil that can also come from selling massive amounts of useless junk to vendors. Further, this system can be abused by those bots that hack accounts or obtain credit card information. Currently, all that they can do is hack and account and steal more gil or items and sell it, which is against TOS. Now, if they hack an account and steal payment information, they will just buy tons of time scolls and sell them instead. Well thought out. Currently, these gil sellers are not actually causing inflation. There is no way for them to actually do this, as there is no fountain of gil right now that they can just pull from. It's either hack accounts and steal items, which were already part of the game's economy to begin with. Steal the gil which was already also part of the economy to begin with. Or farm items and sell them for gil, which is also already part of the economy anyways. How do you really think they are getting this gil? Generating it with code? Lol. They are not selling any gil that was not already part of the economy to begin with. They are just stealing it from other players and then throwing it back in, which makes it against TOS. The most hilarious part of all of this? You honestly have no idea what you are talking about or how this actually works!Quote:
Originally Posted by Intaki
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03-07-2015, 01:03 PMQiLymePye
Fyce....let me ask you this. Are you saying that its ok to have inequality in players in the amount of time each player can put into the game but its not ok to have inequality in the amount of money person has? So if you have more RL time to play game than someone else, its ok, but if you have more RL money than someone else then that inequality is frowned upon? What is with you people? Once again, its not P2W because the person that has more RL time to play the game has access to same stuff the person with more RL money has. Its ok to get stuff quickly in this game if you have the time to put in but you better not use RL money or you have an advantage that others wont have, even if others already have the advantage of having more time than you to put into game. Which one is an ok advantage to have?
I could care less if Person A wants to spend 20, 30, or 40 RL dollars to buy a clear in T13 or get married instead of spending months playing game to generate resources to do the same thing. It doesn't hurt me. PvE is not a competition, PvP is. Now notice you don't see PvP equipment being sold on MB or by NPC's for gil. P2W this game is not. The only people that can make this game P2W is SE, and they would have to change how you get gear and the relevance of said gear to "progress" through the game.
Basically what I get from the system people are talking about is for subs to be bought with in game gil (mostly made by people who have the time to do so, etc.) from people that have more RL money to get gil they might not have time to make, but said gil can't buy them best gear. Maybe a house...maybe....but buying a house isn't "progression" because you don't need it to "progress" through game, its just vanity. -
03-07-2015, 01:21 PMTouchandFeel
As someone that goes to work in order to make money to pay for things like the subscription to this game, someone being able to sit at home all day playing the game and acquiring gil then being able to essentially play the game for free because they play the game a lot does not seem fair to me.
I'm sorry but I cannot support this idea. -
03-07-2015, 01:25 PMCeodoreThe point they are getting at is now you are putting a monetary value to their time spent playing, and different people have different opinions of what their time is worth. You obviously think your time is worthless since you wouldn't care at all what price someone has to pay for the same progress. However, also assume you are on the other side of the fence. You don't have time to run the raids and do the things, so you buy it all. Does that make you a good player? No, it doesn't. Does that mean you are going to attract a lot of friends who don't just want you to spend your money on buying them things? Maybe. So, progress and success of a player can now be rated more on what the player has accomplished as opposed to how much money they can spend. If player 1 can get by in real life working a casual job and spend hours on end playing the game, but player 2 who has to work 2 jobs to just support themselves and can't find time enough to play the game, maybe they shouldn't be wasting their money on a video game anyways. This isn't a necessary thing, it's an entertainment industry, meaning the people who should be playing, that are going to generate the revenue and money for the company the most, are the ones that make enough to actually play this way. Free to plays are also out there that have cash shops which give an advantage to players who can spend the money. This system still caters most to players that can afford to play video games, as even the player who makes a lot of money but has little time to play, will still not be able to enjoy the items as often or to the extent as someone who can also afford to sink money into said game and also has plenty of time to enjoy the items. The ideal player isn't the one who has just time or just money, it's one that has both. If a cash shop was introduced that gave an advantage for spending more money, then the players who can actually afford to play the game and can spend a lot of time playing it would take over (players like myself). These players can make a nice living while also spending hours and hours playing. However, very few people are so privileged. Even so, because I don't want to see this game decline, I don't want to see this happen. A subscription model is the perfect middle ground, it keeps people who simply can't afford to play more focused on doing more important things, like staying afloat in the real world, and allows players who can afford to play, the freedom to pay to the company a consistent revenue that the company can count on. Revenue they can sink back into new content. Players who can barely afford to play, or players that make a lot of money but don't have the time to play, really should just re-evaluate whether playing an videogame is really so important.Quote:
Originally Posted by QiLymePye
Not a terrible reason, but not the best reasoning. All a matter of perspective. What about the players that go to work to make a living and can still farm the gil to essentially play for free? They come out ahead even more. I'm on your side, but I am also one of those players that could do that. Still, I don't want to see it happen, because I know the consequences beyond this fact can be devastating.Quote:
Originally Posted by TouchandFeel
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03-07-2015, 01:48 PMQiLymePye
Ceo...what are you talking about? Your whole argument not only contradicts itself, it backs up my argument. What you are saying is that its ok that certain people have more time to play than others and that if you don't have the time to play, then boo hoo. But if said person has more money than you to enjy the game, than its not fair? really. And that said person should "re-evaluate" whether videogames are important? How about if you don't have as much RL money to put into the game than someone else, then maybe that person should "re-evaluate" if having more money is important to them? See what i did? It goes Both ways. now heres the problem....everyone pays the same sub price but thee are people that get more out of their sub than others because of the time they can spend.
Its like saying hey, you have netflix and i have netflix, but you have more time to watch the movies with your sub than I do, so you don't want me to pay someone a little money to borrow their sub because its not fair to you. If said person buys gil by selling a sub, how is that hurting you? Please explain. Stop saying they buy gear that most people already have. Stop saying they will buy up all of the houses, which are already bought up by the people that had time to make the money to buy houses, stop saying they buy a run in coil, which doesn't effect you at all. Why would this sytem hurt you besides that you can't say you worked harder than someone else in game time? Is it your ego you are worried about?
Stop saying inflation. Gil isn't being created with the push of a button. At best, it would be transferred. How many of you are sitting on millions of gil? not 3 or 4 mil, but like 20, 30, 50 mil. What are you hoarding it for if you don't need a house? Its the same as whats going on in the RL economy. We have 1 to 2 percent of the people holding +90% of the money. You wanna stimulate the economy? You guys need to put the money back into the economy. You wanna know how that can happen? If you guys that have nothing to spend gil on alll of a sudden have something to spend gil on....like a sub. Make you "hard" work pay off even more by earning free subs. WTF is wrong with that? -
03-07-2015, 02:00 PMCeodoreNot that it isn't fair, because what's fair and right doesn't matter. It's more about what they really should be doing instead, from a financial perspective. If they want to spend their money on an in game cash shop item, or spend their money on buying items to sell for gil, that's their prerogative. What I was pointing out is that the people who benefit the most are those with both time and money, which would benefit players like myself who can play and work at the same time. But, that's not what I want to get at. There are real in game effects to this system that can be catastrophic. It WILL drive up market prices. It WILL put the gil in the hands of the people who have the most money as well as the most time. It WILL make new players to the game have to spend real money to make easier progress through the game, but also have to spend more real money, since the ones already at the top won't be required to do the same to make progress. When you make it harder on the new players, you lose in coming subscriptions. When you lose those incoming players, price wars among the players at the top begins, and your player base dwindles.Quote:
Originally Posted by QiLymePye
I'd like to also point out something else about WoW's time scroll system that is being implemented. First, you buy the scroll, then you have the choice to either use it for yourself, or sell it. The market board on their game is going to give you a set price that you can sell it for which can not be changed by the player. THIS does not cause inflation, as it's essentially as if you are vendoring the item instead. You don't get a choice in the price, the game sets it. (This information has also been confirmed with my partner, a veteran WoW player himself of over 8 years and current player) -
03-07-2015, 10:05 PMDuuude007Printing money is only one form of inflation.Quote:
Originally Posted by QiLymePye
They have every right to call it inflation, when the costs dramatically rise while demand remains stable, you still see the value of each gil decrease.