Cairdeas, please don't take my message the wrong way. Overall, I've always been interested in what you have to say, and your points are usually well thought out.
My only problem here comes from your intro line: "I am not asking how you think Jobs should be implemented. I'm asking that SE consider that they keep the ability to use any weapon on any job an option. Lots of other players have agreed with me. Thats the only thing I've tried to instill."
They have already said that the armoury system will be the base which 'jobs' will be tagged onto. I highly... highly doubt that they would restrict the job to the class that completes the job unlocking quest. However, much to my dissapointment, the weapons are what make the base armoury class. I don't see us getting much freedom with using different weapons on different classes while retaining an individual base class.
I do think it's silly archers cant use daggers, gladiators cant use one handed axes, etc etc...
This post is also not getting into any debate on whether Only a gladiator will be able to enable Job - Paladin.. Just looking at weapon options...
I am curious though, if they are saying that you are Armoury Class A, and you enable Job Class B, could that expand your weapon choices at all? Unless they generally enable a warrior/gladiator to also be able to wield greatswords/scythes, then they would have to: Gladiator equipped weapon, enable job class: dark knight = able to equip greatsword/scythe while job enabled..??
I'm interested in your thoughts...
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05-20-2011, 12:33 PMMagicofGaia
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05-20-2011, 12:41 PMJericho
I may have already said this, but I'm very small, I tend to be overlooked.
It may not be unheard of for a job to be unlocked on multiple classes. For example, Dark Knight could be unlockable at GLD 30 or MRD 30 or... Scythe..user......30. And those are the classes that can use that job. That way, it would make more sense for SE to be able to release a Scythe class later on, as only 1 job I can think of would ever use it. Same with Katanas and Great Katanas. Well, Ninjas and Samurais might both use each. But only those two would want to.
Just opposite of ffxi. Your weapon class depicts what jobs you can use, instead of your jobs deciding what weapons you can use.
I can't wrap my mind around jobs being limited to a single class either. But I also don't see them allowing every job to use every class.
I hate how we word all this stuff. It gets tough to type. -
05-20-2011, 12:48 PMCairdeasI wasn't talking about the Classes. Marauder will Always use Axes. But a Warrior shouldn't be forced too.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicofGaia
Ultimately. I'd like it so you Equip the Class that teaches the Job. Once you get the rank that unlocks the job quest and you complete the job quest while on that Weapon Class, afterwards in the Skill Assignment menu you can set your job just like any other skill in its own box up above your action bars. Then afterwards now you can change your weapon to any weapon that is a high enough rank to equip the Job. So if the job is unlocked at rank 20, you have to be rank 20 on any weapon you want to equip that job too. -
05-20-2011, 12:54 PMVesperia
Some of you people have literally zero comprehension skills. I don't think Cairdeas could be any clearer.
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05-20-2011, 12:59 PMCarpeMaybe I'm wrong, but I think your confusing things a little bit.Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicofGaia
When Cairdeas says "Weapon" that is synonymous with "Weapon Class", "Armoury Class", "Class", "Weapon Specialist", etc.
It's different from "Job".
He's arguing that once a Job (BLM, WHM, PLD, THF, RDM, WAR, etc.) is unlocked it should be able to be used by any Class (GLA, MRD, LNC, THM, CON, etc.) NOT just the one that unlocked it. He's not saying that MRD should be able to use a sword or that CON should be able to use a dagger, but that any JOB should be able to be paired with any CLASS (often referred to as "weapon" which he uses more than "class" because everyone is confused by the term "class").
He has other ideas about implementation that he would like to see but the idea of ANY JOB being matched with ANY CLASS is the central thing that he wants to hold on to.
So example:
You level up your GLA to 20 or so, let's say that lets you unlock Paladin.
Once you unlock Paladin why not be able to use it with other Weapon Classes?
Why can't I mix Paladin with not just Gladiator, but with my Lancer or my Marauder or some other Weapon Class that is going to create truly unique playstyles, tactics, and strategies?
Certain Jobs REALLY don't make sense to be limited to a single class. Think about Red Mage. Red Mage is a hybrid between DOM and DOW so limiting it to only one Weapon Class is the same thing as limiting it to only one Discipline. Does that make sense?
I don't want to put words in others' mouths, but I think that the gist of it, doesn't seem so complicated to me. -
05-20-2011, 01:01 PMAmineriThe easy solution is to have your class defined by what weapon you have equipped, and your job defined by the armor that you wear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amsai
Wearing "generic" armor ~~> no job equipped
Wearing "Job" armor ~~> job equipped
(note: can only equip Job armor after unlocking the job)
This would all fall nicely under the armoury system, both class and job. -
05-20-2011, 01:07 PMCairdeasFF: 4 Heros of Light your hat defined your job. Was really cute.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amineri
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/L...f_Light_Crowns -
05-20-2011, 01:08 PMjarecks
I'm pretty sure cairdeas understands the other side of the argument as he makes some of the more thoughtful posts on these forums. I think his idea for what it may be makes a lot of sense and adds great deal of structured freedom this game needs, IMO.
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05-20-2011, 01:09 PMAmineriIt was your originally mentioning this mechanic that set off this idea in my head. The more I think on it the more it seems like an elegant and natural way to set both class and job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cairdeas
The only thing that dismays me about it is the impact on my poor, poor, inventory :(. -
05-20-2011, 01:10 PMCairdeasI think if they did this they'd have to implement a seperated inventory bag for Weapons and hats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Amineri
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05-20-2011, 01:13 PMBloodLotus
Yep he makes sense and it would be interesting if it worked that way. I doubt it, but we'll see what the details say when they come out.
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05-20-2011, 01:16 PMBloodLotusA separate tab for gear would be fantastic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cairdeas
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05-20-2011, 01:23 PMCairdeasThis would just be for class defining gear. Hats that defined your job (ala 4 Heros of Light) and Weapons that defined your class.Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodLotus
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05-20-2011, 01:26 PMAmineriI cry every time I'm at the Tanner's guild and Fen-Yll Fineries and see all those beautiful bags on display, and yet not for sale ... :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Cairdeas
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05-20-2011, 01:31 PMBloodLotusIt wouldn't have to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cairdeas
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05-20-2011, 01:35 PMCairdeasOh I know. right now I think the best option to help alievate a lot of the inventory stress is to separate weapon inventory though.Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodLotus
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05-20-2011, 01:43 PMBloodLotus
I don't know about anyone else but about 50 of my slots are taken up by armor and weapons.
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05-20-2011, 01:49 PMAmineriSame here, Blood.Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodLotus
I'd be fine with a quest to be able to purchase / acquire a bag. Bag sits in main inventory, and adds a new equipment tab. Equipment tab could be specific, maybe just tools, or weapons, or armor, or jewelry, or food, or ... etc.
At any rate, as much as I like the idea of using armor to set current job (or lack of job), it will create a definite escalation of inventory crunch, so hopefully some sort of solution would follow not long after. -
05-20-2011, 02:39 PMVesperia
Ugh, why is everyone so stupid!!! ARRRGGHH
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05-20-2011, 03:15 PMNuru
Honestly, I wasn't about to go through this whole thread of Cairdeas-Abuse...
I'll say this though. Wait until this damn system is implemented before you try to give "Feedback" to something that doesn't even freakin exist! That is all I have been seeing. Cairdeas is giving a suggestion/warning of what not to do with this job system, and more than half of everyone here can't even tell the difference between a Job and a Weapon Class. -
05-20-2011, 03:22 PMMagicofGaiaI tried to point out my message had nothing to do with the classes altogether, or in any way related to unlocking said jobs, or which jobs could be attached or restricted to which armoury classes. My basic question I directed to Cairdeas was referring to the actual weapons that you could use. Just wondered the public opinion on whether they will simply expand the types of weapons that the base armoury classes can use, or if new weapons will be enabled by equipping a job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuru
(The following example makes theories, and is in no way based on present facts about upcoming patches, updates)
example: You are an archer, archers are defined by their bows. You unlock 'Musketeer', and equip this 'job' to specialize with your archer. Are you now able to equip flintlock's since your specialization / job that is equipped is Musketeer, and have the gun and it's associated abilities be 'special' only to muskateers. Or would we rather see Flintlocks added to the arsenal of the armoury class of Archer? -
05-20-2011, 03:30 PMBloodLotusIf you didn't read the thread I don't think you are fully capable of making that statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuru
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05-20-2011, 03:30 PMVesperia
Oh my god, for christs sake, how stupid can people be? Some people simply can't be told.
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05-20-2011, 03:41 PMNuruI believe that Ranger(Job) would be supported by both the Archer and Musketeer (Weapon Classes). However..Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicofGaia
Here is the current way that the Job System is depicted:
Archer(Bow Weapon Class) : Ranger(Job)
- Archer Abilities Supported
- Some Cross-Class Abilities Locked out due to Job
- New Ranger-Specific Abilities Introduced
Musketeer(Gunnery Weapon Class) : Flintlock(Job)
- Musketeer Abilities Supported
- Some Cross-Class Abilities Locked Out due to Job
- New Flintlock-Specific Abilities Introduced
Now lets try to change your Job to a Monk.
Archer(Bow Weapon Class) : //////>>Cannot Change to Monk, Archer Abilities Locked Out.
This is what Cairdeas doesn't want.
Now.. we have..
Here is how Cairdeas wants the Job System to work.
Archer(Bow Weapon Class) : Ranger(Job)
- Archer Abilities Supported
- Very Few Cross-Class Abilities Locked out due to Job
- New Ranger-Specific Abilities Introduced
Musketeer(Gunnery Weapon Class) : Flintlock(Job)
- Musketeer Abilities Supported
- Very Few Cross-Class Abilities Locked Out due to Job
- New Flintlock-Specific Abilities Introduced
Now lets try to change your Job to a Monk.
Archer(Bow Weapon Class) : Monk(Job)
- Archer Abilities Supported
- Very Few Cross-Class Abilities Locked Out Due to Job
- New Monk-Specific Abilities Introduced
Monks will not have Special Abilities/Weapon Skills that are determined by your Weapon, instead, it is your Weapon that determines which Weapon Skills you will have.
Monks will have Special Abilities that help Monk's perform their own specific Role in Parties. "Kick Attacks" require no weapon to use. You can even have Musketeer equipped and still be able to kick a marmot across Thanalan.
EDIT: To the other people posting senseless shit in this thread, I'm glad you are because it seems to me that you don't get it enough to be able to answer any questions for yourselves. GTFO otherwise. -
05-20-2011, 03:42 PMVesperiaGosh, excuse Cairdeas for making sense!Quote:
Originally Posted by Frebaut
Sorry their suggestion might actually improve the game. -
05-20-2011, 03:49 PMBloodLotusMaybe but it won't happen. Nuru's red text is closer to how it will work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vesperia
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05-20-2011, 04:07 PMSonic_the_HedgehogAre you sure that's what he wants? I took it as he wants jobs to use certain weapons, not abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuru
EX. My job can be Ranger and I can use Archer and Musketeer weapons, but I can't use those classes' abilities because Ranger job will have its own abilities, also I would be limited in which weapons I could use, like I couldn't use an axe or sword. -
05-20-2011, 04:16 PMNuruRanger Job would only be locking out abilities from classes that are more abstract to the Ranger Job, Ex. Pugilist Abilities, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_the_Hedgehog
EDIT, by the way, I was refering more about the weapons than the abilities. Hence the Archer/Monk -
05-20-2011, 04:23 PMSonic_the_HedgehogAh ok, I would like it if we could different weapons for our jobs, but limited only in that the weapons for those jobs make sense. Like Rangers can't use staffs and axes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuru
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05-20-2011, 05:31 PMjarecksPaladin could use polearms in ffxi, which is the category a lance falls under. This idea is no less absurd than saying the job will be limited to the weapon ckassQuote:
Originally Posted by Dubont
It may not happen the way cairdeas hopes, but I'm
certainly hoping it does. -
05-20-2011, 05:35 PMMack
I definitely think that a job should have a choice of weapons but I don't think all weapons should belong to every job and honestly I couldn't give you a good reason why, call it preference, but variety is the spice of life.
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05-20-2011, 05:37 PMDubontPLD COULD use it, but the fact that anyone actually did is enough to make me disrespect that person, regardless if what they think. Example: the OP.Quote:
Originally Posted by jarecks
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05-20-2011, 05:38 PMSonic_the_HedgehogI agree :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Mack
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05-20-2011, 05:48 PMjarecksYes it wasn't the best, but it was still an option. And they could actually do something now to make it a viable option. I'd much rather to create options and balance them. Rather then bar even the chance at a little more diversity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubont
Options add more value to the game. And could keep us entertained much longer by giving us freedom to try different things within our jobs and classes. -
05-20-2011, 05:50 PMMackWell in all fairness this completely depends on the game mechanics and how they were developed. In FFXI a Paladin couldn't get by without a shield so a two handed weapon was out of the question but given different game mechanics the polearm could've been given block abilities when equipped by a Paladin and they would've been a more plausible choice. You're thinking way too much in a fixed state of mind, not everything has to follow the same set of rules, things can work in FFXIV that didn't necessarily work in FFXI.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubont
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05-20-2011, 05:54 PMSephr
Just reposting this to see what people's thoughts are? It wasnt acknowledged before and I was wondering if this interpretation was off.
I think, having read this again, it might actually confirm they are locked to classes. Whilst it might be slightly badly worded, I think they're trying to say that they don't want people to consider these specific roles as superior to the current classes, leavng for example, conjurer to be left redundant in the place of Black mage even in solo situations. These aren't better, they're just alternatives options.Quote:
Quests to unlock each job will become available once you have reached a certain rank in the corresponding class.
Rather than being advanced versions of classes, we would like players to think of jobs as specialized playing styles optimized for partying.
As for having a 'corresponding' class that unlocks the quest (notice it says class, not classes, why would a Thaumaturge not be able to take the quest to unlock Black mage, as well as conjurer? They're both magic casters)
I think it's all there, the wording is just so vague it's hard to pick out the facts.Quote:
cor·re·spond·ing
- Able to be matched, joined, or interlocked
Whilst I think I prefer your idea, it's clear (at least in the current design they have) the whole dual-class requirements aren't going to be necessary. As I said above, they only mention a rank requirement of a single class to unlock the quest.Quote:
My personal hope and interpretation would be...
I pretty much expect jobs to be like this:
Conjurer - Whitemage & Blackmage
(Magic damage and healing specialisations)
Thaumaturge - Martyr (or something, HP-sacrificing heals and/or buffs) & Redmage (or something, debuffer/DoTs)
Gladiator - Paladin & berserker
Etc etc.. Each class can specialise into at least two seperate useful roles, based on the specific class they come from. Specialisation would just open up passive bonuses and new spell tiers etc building from the bass class' skills -
05-20-2011, 05:54 PMDubonthaving the option of being gimp may entertain YOU, but it actually disgusts me. When I see DRG walking around using Rapiers, PLD using polearms, etc etc....it angers me...If it's useless, it shouldn't be an option.Quote:
Originally Posted by jarecks
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05-20-2011, 05:58 PMSephrSituational shit is situational. In Abyssea many job use different weapons because certain weapon skills are required, and back in ToAU polearm-wielding paladins werent THAT much of a surprise in some situations (though they really didnt do much damage) because of the piercing nature of the weapon. Samurai frequently used poles despite them being a secondary weapon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubont
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05-20-2011, 05:58 PMjarecksDid you even read what I posted? I said they could balance it. This is a different game so they could make different but similarly equal options. It may have been gimp before but could shine now depending on how its done. It's not ffxi.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dubont
I do agree that I'd rather it not be there if it isn't done correctly. -
05-20-2011, 05:58 PMMackQuote:
Originally Posted by Dubont
Read, please...people ignore posts that counter their point logically and continue arguing...stop arguing for the sake of it. And Jarecks post pretty much word for word same as mine, two people telling you the same thing and you chose to skim past that and reply with nothing.Quote:
Well in all fairness this completely depends on the game mechanics and how they were developed. In FFXI a Paladin couldn't get by without a shield so a two handed weapon was out of the question but given different game mechanics the polearm could've been given block abilities when equipped by a Paladin and they would've been a more plausible choice. You're thinking way too much in a fixed state of mind, not everything has to follow the same set of rules, things can work in FFXIV that didn't necessarily work in FFXI.