Four Ways to Die - why the Tank Meta feels "off".

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

Because even in those stances, the majority of their damage mitigation (preventing/negating damage through healing) requires constant player action. You won't heal yourself as a WAR or DRK doing your healing rotation unless you're in your tank "stance."

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I'm trying real hard to understand what you're saying here but it's eluding me. If you're referencing that Souleater won't heal you outside of grit - the self heal from souleater is so negligible that it could never be considered part of anyone's real mitigation. Even outside of grit, with Dark Arts, the most I've seen my souleater hit for is ~3000 HP... factor in the 20% damage reduction from grit and now you've got less than a cure 1 on every third GCD! Amazing!

Storm's Path heals you regardless of Defiance/Deliverance, and if you're using Inner Beast for the self healing (and not the mitigation after you've used it) you're using it wrong.

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Originally Posted by Ralvenom

I don't think you understand what Active Mitigation is at all...Active Mitigation
You literally do certain abilities all the time to stay alive -- as part of your rotation. It would basically be similar to the same thing we do now as tanks, except we would be dead if we messed up slightly. The current meta is using CDs to deal with tankbusters, not consistent use of abilities to prevent dying to autoattacks. Active Mitigation =/= use of CDs to survive tankbusters.

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Defensive cooldowns are as active as mitigation gets in this game - they are the only things you can actively activate in a battle to increase mitigation, but yes, you are right, they aren't REALLY active mitigation. I go over this in my thread which is a response to this one.

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Originally Posted by Ralvenom

I don't think you understand what Active Mitigation is at all...Active Mitigation
You literally do certain abilities all the time to stay alive -- as part of your rotation. It would basically be similar to the same thing we do now as tanks, except we would be dead if we messed up slightly. The current meta is using CDs to deal with tankbusters, not consistent use of abilities to prevent dying to autoattacks.

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As a (former) Prot Warrior whose class was ruined by Active Mitigation, I am intimately familiar with it. WARs have it, DRKs have it (a little less), and PLD doesn't really have it at all. It is a design that works for some classes/jobs, and for WAR and DRK, I think it functions very well.

But the point is that they aren't using it.

EDIT: Deezee, I wasn't sure how much it helped in A:S (only have a PLD at 60, but they've seemed extremely helpful in leveling and level 50 content) but the goal of a tank (according to the "immovable wall" philosophy) is to mitigate and minimize as much incoming damage as you can. Even if those self-heals only hit for 1k, they'd still be worth using in that philosophy, because that's less healing that the healers need to give you ("every little bit helps").

I think the point of this thread (that the "wall" philosophy doesn't fit the current meta/paradigm) and your suggestion are not incompatible, I'm just not sure that I agree. What are your ideas for how to change the tank abilities to be more useful, and how do you think this would help the meta/paradigm of damage-focused tanking? I'm genuinely curious. :)

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Originally Posted by Deezee

What content are you soloing once you're done with MSQ/at level cap?

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Part of the game is leveling and it always has been, and part of the function of DPS modes to non-DPS classes (normally, tanks and healers) is to provide for better solo play when tanking/healing focus aren't nearly as useful. It is not their sole purpose at all, but part of their whole function. Treasure Maps and weekly/daily hunts are both relevant solo content at 60, too, in addition to leveling.

And DPS stances are surely meant for OTing and they always have been--whether DRK and PLD are properly balanced as OTs in terms of damage dealt is a separate matter. If the developers intended for DPS stances to be used while main tanking, they likely wouldn't have added an accuracy bonus to the tanking stances to ease the accuracy burden on the main tank without also adding it to the DPS stance (and at that point, it would simply make more sense to reduce the frontal accuracy requirements).

Does the current design support that intent? Not particularly. But you can't say that Deliverance would have no purpose if it weren't usable while main tanking as that ignores the other half of tanking, which is off-tanking a number of fights.

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Originally Posted by Jpec07

What are your ideas for how to change the tank abilities to be more useful, and how do you think this would help the meta/paradigm of damage-focused tanking? I'm genuinely curious. :)

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ur-Ways-to-Die

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Originally Posted by Alahra

Does the current design support that intent? Not particularly. But you can't say that Deliverance would have no purpose if it weren't usable while main tanking as that ignores the other half of tanking, which is off-tanking a number of fights.

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If at some point all you're bringing a WAR for is for them to OT in deliverance then someone will figure out how to replace them with a DPS. Look at Rav EX: very easy to solo heal, solo tank, and 6 DPS... Once gear levels are high enough, people will be able to bring one tank, one healer, and 6 DPS into A1S and down oppressor before 0.5 spawns. They're already bringing one healer, two tanks and 5 DPS to do it before the first jump.

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Originally Posted by Deezee

If at some point all you're bringing a WAR for is for them to OT in deliverance then someone will figure out how to replace them with a DPS. Look at Rav EX: very easy to solo heal, solo tank, and 6 DPS... Once gear levels are high enough, people will be able to bring one tank, one healer, and 6 DPS into A1S and down oppressor before 0.5 spawns.

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You're forgetting about tank swaps, though. That's not a mechanic they've leveraged as much in HW so far, but a number of fights in ARR encouraged them, as do fights with timed adds. In those situations, the off-tank uses DPS stance when the tank stance isn't necessary. You're taking an incredibly narrow view of this at the moment.

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Originally Posted by Sapphidia

-snip-

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An experienced healer heals in phase with the incoming damage. Between heals, they reapply dots and dps. Inexperienced healers heal out of phase of the incoming damage. Damage accumulates and they play catch-up. More HP doesn't make it easier to heal. Mitigation stats (DEF/MDEF) make it easier to heal. You are never required to make a trade off with a left side piece (i.e. mitigation stats) to do more dps through gear. HP is not mitigation.

Even if you increase the incoming damage by some arbitrary amount, tanks will still find the minimum HP required to survive. Remember that gear is designed to compensate for a variety of skill levels. Once you meet the minimum gear check for your group's skill level, you can afford to play more aggressively. If you're unable to switch out of full vit even at max ilevel, chances are that nobody less skilled that yourself is going to be clearing this content, even at the end of the raid cycle.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

More HP doesn't make it easier to heal. Mitigation stats (DEF/MDEF) make it easier to heal.

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Not this old canard again. Having more HP does decrease the burden of healing, assuming a rhythm in which the healer caps off the tank and then does something else (usually DPSing). A higher HP total means the healer has more time for other tasks, whether DPSing, avoiding mechanics, or healing other members of the party before needing to refocus attention on tank healing. That makes the healer's job (healing) easier.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

Even if you increase the incoming damage by some arbitrary amount, tanks will still find the minimum HP required to survive.

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It's still possible for the minimum HP to be set too low (which seems to be the case for HW so far in comparison to raiding in ARR). It's one thing for tanks to start focusing more on offense as their gear, their healers' gear, and group familiarity with a given encounter all increase. It's another for offense to be the focus from day one.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

Not this old canard again. Having more HP does decrease the burden of healing, assuming a rhythm in which the healer caps off the tank and then does something else (usually DPSing). A higher HP total means the healer has more time for other tasks, whether DPSing, avoiding mechanics, or healing other members of the party before needing to refocus attention on tank healing. That makes the healer's job (healing) easier.

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"This old canard?" A cure hits me for about 4k hp right now. In order to give a healer even one extra GCD to dps, I'd then need to have 4000 more HP, right? Anything less and there's a chance I could die. I'm already running melded accessories and STR spec; even if I spec'd full vit and had BiS 210 fending accessories (which I couldn't just do overnight due to not having the drops, pages, esos and gobcoats to obtain them) - I don't think it's even possible for me to have 4000 more HP.

And even if I did that, that gives a healer all of what, exactly? One extra GCD for a stone 3 that could miss in savage? Meanwhile, I lose how much STR and how much damage on every single one of my GCDs?

That's why VIT isn't a trade off and why the STR meta is a no brainer.

Tank DPS and Healer DPS work hand in hand. You want to optimize both roles in a way that the grand total DPS is as high as it can be. Currently, sacrificing the amount of STR you gain from Melded (+ Slaying) accessories to Fending accessories isn't worth the trade off, especially with the lack of accuracy on Healers. You'll lose more DPS by allowing your healer to DPS more than you'll gain, essentially. This could change, but for now that's how it is.

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Originally Posted by Deezee

That's why VIT isn't a trade off and why the STR meta is a no brainer.

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I never said VIT was better than STR, but the viewpoint that having more VIT doesn't impact healing difficulty is something I've seen on these forums many times. That's objectively untrue. Now, is the amount by which VIT eases things for the healer enough to justify *not* going STR? Presently, no, as the content simply doesn't require much VIT at all and it *does* require a lot of DPS.

And as an aside, you're also underestimating how much HP VIT actually provides (which is also common whenever someone says VIT doesn't help the healer). On my DRK, I go from 12796 HP with STR accessories to 16240 just with i170 Fending. That's almost 4k right there (and I'm not VIT spec'd either). Surely i190 or i200 Fending accessories would provide more.