FIX Relic Weapons

[Arcon]

It's a weapon. It's meant ot be used as a weapon. And, as a weapon, it's good.

So how do you explain elemental staves? Or pretty much any other staff in the game? Are they bad weapons? Then why use them? Because what makes mage weapons useful is not what makes melee weapons useful. As a melee weapon it's useful, as a mage weapon it's not. And since that's what mages are, while it has some niche uses, it doesn't play to the strengths of the job, and in fact using it prevents you from using elemental staves and other weapons, making you actually worse at what you're supposed to do, hence you can't really call it useful.

I see many people saying things like "gear gets obsolete", "the game moves on, move on with it" and stuff like that. However that's not all there is to it, and SE knows that. It's about years of effort, years of some people's lives invested in something, that's made obsolete. It's a matter of drawing the line, some items are meant to be forgotten, even good items. Kirin's Osode, Hagun, Blau Dolch, etc. a ton of items considered good, even great, are now useless, and that already pissed off tons of people. But there had to be losses somewhere, for the game to not get stagnant. But should that apply to absolutely everything? Remember people were still using elemental staves, certain AF pieces and even miscellaneous items like Swift Belt or Soboro at 75. Old doesn't always mean they shouldn't be used anymore. As I said, it's a matter of drawing the line, what should be obsolete and what shouldn't. And wasting years of hard work is not what a dev team should do, and they know that very well, otherwise they wouldn't have made relics upgradeable and now even talk about making AF2, which is incredibly easy to come by these days, augmentable too.

However, just upgrading relics a little is still wasting all the effort. Why? Because people who are after relics want them, because they want the best. That's the entire motivation behind spending a lot of time and money into it, to ultimately gain (sometimes even only a small) edge over all other available weapons. If they aren't the best anymore, all that time and money is still wasted, because it disregards the motivation behind obtaining those weapons. And personally I believe they know that too, it seems like they're trying to restore relics to their former glory, just being a bit awkward about it.

My opinion isn't that they should make relics much stronger, but rather nerf some empyreans, or at least their WS. Some of them are insanely overpowered imo, as I said before, some relics only had a small advantage over other weapons in the same category, mythics are often even worse. Empyrean weapons on the other hand all (or all I know of at least) seem to have a huge advantage over other weapons, something that's impossible to keep up with. Relics still required skill to be good, you had to know how to play and what to gear for which situations. In contrast, every empyrean has a native power to that weapon alone, that compensates for lack of everything else. Sure, having skill and gear will improve the damage output even more, but it's not required to beat a decent player otherwise.

In my opinion things that are hard to obtain should be good, or at least decent, but more importantly, it should also apply vice versa: things that are good, especially things that are exceptional, should not be easy to obtain. And that is currently my main problem with empyrean weapons, they are way too good for the effort it takes to obtain them. Some things should just be balanced out.

[Alhanelem]

Because what makes mage weapons useful is not what makes melee weapons useful.

If you break out of the mentality that a SMN has to use a low damage staff with avatar perp cost (which is in such overabundance it's not really even needed anymore), it's a powerful weapon. Different weapons for different situations. It's not making you worse at what you do when you capitalize on your strengths. Or are you one of those people that think the only thing SMN can do is buff and cast Cure IV, or throw pets at NMs and run?

The empyrean weaponskill can return you a massive amount of MP- more than the amount you would have spent on perpetuation costs. So can Spirit Taker. Even the magic weapon skills are perfectly good with it since the base DMG of the weapon is still important. The relic weaponskill gives 8mp/tick refresh as an aftermath, so if you keep using it, it's better than any perp staff in existence.

The Empyrean and Relic staves are good if you utilize a playstyle to take advantage of them. Of course you're not going to nuke with a melee damage weapon (though, it's not as implausable as you might think because of Occult Accumen), but Summoner can easily make good use of Claustrum or Hvergelmir. And if you're one of those people, they are good weapons. It may be an optional piece of equipment that gains you an advantage in a lesser used strategy, but if it's your cup of tea, you should feel no shame in going for one.

[Purraj]

Why do people expect this game to stay stagnant? It doesn't matter how hard you've worked or how many people you've used/RMTed currency to obtain your relic. New weapons are available, go get them and accept the fact that things change. Or do Magian trials to upgrade your old weapon and live in the past; you should be glad that the developers even gave you that option to begin with. World of Warcraft has similar weapons, and with every expansion or raid they become outdated. In that game, players readily accept that. Why can't you?

The point of any MMO is to get new gear, not to use the same weapon from 4 years ago. Mythics and empyreans were a step in the right direction. The game is evolving and it's better than it ever has been, relic owners need to evolve with it and stop crying.

I couldn't agree with this more. Relics had their time. For around 7 years or so there wasn't a weapon that even came close. Relics were on a tier of their own. That being said, the event that was required to obtain them is now archaic and ridiculously easy. Even if it takes a large amount of currency to get them, a party of 6 at 90 can destroy just about everything inside. People tend to forget that relics also aren't terrible, they just aren't the best. In comparison to Empyrean weapons they do fall short, particularly in the unique WS department. However, outside of abyssea and the use of Razed Ruins/Sanguine Scythe/Gnarled horn and the such, relics are still very close to the top. I don't figure that SE plans for nothing else challenging to ever come out, and I'd suspect that what does will be non-abyssea. Your precious relics will still be relevant and still parse high, but maybe not as highly, it all depends.

All of this being said, almost every other single game in history that has released an expansion pack or raised a level cap has made gear from the previous endeavors less useful. Such is the natural flow of life, things from the past become less relevant. You'd best learn to deal with this or be sadly disappointed at what you see.

500 more WS damage meaning if a War uses Emp WS and hits 8k I want to hit 8.5k on my WS or more. highest damage weapons should deal the most damage plain and simple lol.

Also, I would like to point out how ridiculous this sounds. In order for them to allow for this to happen, assuming you are talking about Catastrophe, would mean you'd full heal yourself every time you WS (I believe someone mentioned this), which is absurd, and would mean that they make it critical hit based, which would also likely break it. The only problem you deal with is that you can't do critical WS dmg inside of abyssea like some Empyrean WSs can. You're viewing the game in such a very narrow scope; One instance of a vastly large game, however overly played that instance CURRENTLY is, does not constitute a revamping of an otherwise amazing weapon.

[Unctgtg]

I couldn't agree with this more. Relics had their time. For around 7 years or so there wasn't a weapon that even came close. Relics were on a tier of their own. That being said, the event that was required to obtain them is now archaic and ridiculously easy. Even if it takes a large amount of currency to get them, a party of 6 at 90 can destroy just about everything inside. People tend to forget that relics also aren't terrible, they just aren't the best. In comparison to Empyrean weapons they do fall short, particularly in the unique WS department. However, outside of abyssea and the use of Razed Ruins/Sanguine Scythe/Gnarled horn and the such, relics are still very close to the top. I don't figure that SE plans for nothing else challenging to ever come out, and I'd suspect that what does will be non-abyssea. Your precious relics will still be relevant and still parse high, but maybe not as highly, it all depends.

All of this being said, almost every other single game in history that has released an expansion pack or raised a level cap has made gear from the previous endeavors less useful. Such is the natural flow of life, things from the past become less relevant. You'd best learn to deal with this or be sadly disappointed at what you see.



Also, I would like to point out how ridiculous this sounds. In order for them to allow for this to happen, assuming you are talking about Catastrophe, would mean you'd full heal yourself every time you WS (I believe someone mentioned this), which is absurd, and would mean that they make it critical hit based, which would also likely break it. The only problem you deal with is that you can't do critical WS dmg inside of abyssea like some Empyrean WSs can. You're viewing the game in such a very narrow scope; One instance of a vastly large game, however overly played that instance CURRENTLY is, does not constitute a revamping of an otherwise amazing weapon.

Even outside abyssea the emp. are hitting for 3-4k far above what relics can hit for. Most of you commenting about saying current blah blah blah, don't have a relic, and/or didn't have to kill 9500 mobs with a freaking Killshot (before this recent downgrade) for trials to see what a modest increase in base damage and ACC. Give me a freaking break, we have been shit upon time and time again. Its time for SE to step up, and fix mythics and relics.

[Zetonegi]

Even outside abyssea the emp. are hitting for 3-4k far above what relics can hit for. Most of you commenting about saying current blah blah blah, don't have a relic, and/or didn't have to kill 9500 mobs with a freaking Killshot (before this recent downgrade) for trials to see what a modest increase in base damage and ACC. Give me a freaking break, we have been shit upon time and time again. Its time for SE to step up, and fix mythics and relics.

The first thing that comes to mind with trying to fix relics/mythics is giving them the Empyrian WS(or in the case of some relics Yoichi and I think 1 or 2 more, Latent Effect Empy WS which works as long as your main job can use the empyrian in question) Most of the relic WSs are notoriously bad. The other alternative is to super buff the relic WSs so they're on par or better than the Empyrian WSs. Beyond that, ya relics/mythics need a HUGEoverhaul in general.

[Xera]

Even outside abyssea the emp. are hitting for 3-4k far above what relics can hit for. Most of you commenting about saying current blah blah blah, don't have a relic, and/or didn't have to kill 9500 mobs with a freaking Killshot (before this recent downgrade) for trials to see what a modest increase in base damage and ACC. Give me a freaking break, we have been shit upon time and time again. Its time for SE to step up, and fix mythics and relics.

Don't forget the majority of the relic WS were flawed long before Emp weapons existed, essentially making relics shiny high base D weapons(with some unneeded accuracy and low ODD[ish]).

[Sama]

Most of you commenting about saying current blah blah blah, don't have a relic, and/or didn't have to kill 9500 mobs with a freaking Killshot (before this recent downgrade) for trials to see what a modest increase in base damage and ACC. Give me a freaking break, we have been shit upon time and time again. Its time for SE to step up, and fix mythics and relics.

Seriously that 2k kill shot is crazy... I wonder whose idea was that in SE I really want to see his/her face.

[Kiba]

Even outside abyssea the emp. are hitting for 3-4k far above what relics can hit for. Most of you commenting about saying current blah blah blah, don't have a relic, and/or didn't have to kill 9500 mobs with a freaking Killshot (before this recent downgrade) for trials to see what a modest increase in base damage and ACC. Give me a freaking break, we have been shit upon time and time again. Its time for SE to step up, and fix mythics and relics.

What you have expressed above perfectly describes how relic/mythic owners feel at the moment. It is very depressing myself to enter abyssea with a lvl 90 apoc with the most optimizing atmas to only be able to produce damage output that is variable whereas an empyrean weapon can yield consistent static numbers at least 1-2k damage above what I do. Previous posters have explained times have changed adapt to new changes but some things are easier said than done. I am currently working on an empyrean h2h, but I am most certain that no matter how great it will be my relic will hold more value to me due to the amount of time and effort I put in to earn it. God yes I did do the trials requiring 1.5-2k kills before they were updated months ago >_<

Okay, now here is what I would like to address to contribute:
[dev1005] Relic & Mythic Weapon Adjustments
(Yes I really hope that this becomes a dev topic)

Problem: While adventurers are enjoying abyssea and treasures attained including the mighty empyrean weapons, balance between these new weapons and the previous top tier weapons introduced(relics & mythics) are being ignored. We understand the development team's support on making the game oriented for casual playing(less time grind, enjoy the game more) however this should not be a reason to ignore the balance and disregard the efforts put in by players whom attained relic and mythic weapons. Although the concept of relics will be the best is no longer justified due to times changed, relic/mythic weapon owners still believe that relics and mythic weapons should still be comparable to empyrean weapons considering the amount of time and effort spent.

Solution: Please adjust the Weapon Skill Damage Modifiers for the Relic & Mythic Weapon Skills to be on par with Empyrean Weapon Skills. Relic & Mythic Weapons do not necessarily need to be better than Empyrean Weapons
but the damage output difference of thousands is not really acceptable. So please, Development Team, give attention
on this area and apply adjustments.

Further Notes:
A few weeks back there was a twitter post on Aegis and Ochain. The twitter post had good intentions of addressing balance between the two shields, however the following was ignored- with shell a paladin with aegis can cap magic defense. So applying more -magic damage taken serves no purpose of improving the situation. So unless a relic job ability, trait, weapon skill, or adjustment to shield bash timer or damage for Aegis is introduced, further enhancements in magic defense would accomplish nothing. Development Team please review this and reconsider your plans on this.

[dev1000] Dynamis Reborn: With dynamis being adjusted as a relic owner I hope the Development Team considers not making relic weapons easier to attain but change the means of attaining to be more possible. For the longest time players have expressed that building a relic weapon requires mostly time to attain currency which puts a large number of the player base at a disadvantage. Following the success of how empyrean weapons are attained through work fighting notorious monsters and trials to upgrade weapons the same should be applied with relic weapons so that these are possible to attain for the average player who is willing to put in the effort. So instead of downgrading the difficulty of making a relic weapon to what is done with walk of echoes weapons, introduce a new means to build relic weapons that is acceptable to everyone.

Thank you. /bow

[Unctgtg]

What you have expressed above perfectly describes how relic/mythic owners feel at the moment. It is very depressing myself to enter abyssea with a lvl 90 apoc with the most optimizing atmas to only be able to produce damage output that is variable whereas an empyrean weapon can yield consistent static numbers at least 1-2k damage above what I do. Previous posters have explained times have changed adapt to new changes but some things are easier said than done. I am currently working on an empyrean h2h, but I am most certain that no matter how great it will be my relic will hold more value to me due to the amount of time and effort I put in to earn it. God yes I did do the trials requiring 1.5-2k kills before they were updated months ago >_<

Okay, now here is what I would like to address to contribute:
[dev1005] Relic & Mythic Weapon Adjustments
(Yes I really hope that this becomes a dev topic)

Problem: While adventurers are enjoying abyssea and treasures attained including the mighty empyrean weapons, balance between these new weapons and the previous top tier weapons introduced(relics & mythics) are being ignored. We understand the development team's support on making the game oriented for casual playing(less time grind, enjoy the game more) however this should not be a reason to ignore the balance and disregard the efforts put in by players whom attained relic and mythic weapons. Although the concept of relics will be the best is no longer justified due to times changed, relic/mythic weapon owners still believe that relics and mythic weapons should still be comparable to empyrean weapons considering the amount of time and effort spent.

Solution: Please adjust the Weapon Skill Damage Modifiers for the Relic & Mythic Weapon Skills to be on par with Empyrean Weapon Skills. Relic & Mythic Weapons do not necessarily need to be better than Empyrean Weapons
but the damage output difference of thousands is not really acceptable. So please, Development Team, give attention
on this area and apply adjustments.

Further Notes:
A few weeks back there was a twitter post on Aegis and Ochain. The twitter post had good intentions of addressing balance between the two shields, however the following was ignored- with shell a paladin with aegis can cap magic defense. So applying more -magic damage taken serves no purpose of improving the situation. So unless a relic job ability, trait, weapon skill, or adjustment to shield bash timer or damage for Aegis is introduced, further enhancements in magic defense would accomplish nothing. Development Team please review this and reconsider your plans on this.

[dev1000] Dynamis Reborn: With dynamis being adjusted as a relic owner I hope the Development Team considers not making relic weapons easier to attain but change the means of attaining to be more possible. For the longest time players have expressed that building a relic weapon requires mostly time to attain currency which puts a large number of the player base at a disadvantage. Following the success of how empyrean weapons are attained through work fighting notorious monsters and trials to upgrade weapons the same should be applied with relic weapons so that these are possible to attain for the average player who is willing to put in the effort. So instead of downgrading the difficulty of making a relic weapon to what is done with walk of echoes weapons, introduce a new means to build relic weapons that is acceptable to everyone.

Thank you. /bow

Post that in suggestions PLEASE.

They are lowering the drop rate on currency anyways based off their posts today.

[Lost1anguage]

SE needs to fix not only relic weapons, but mythic weapons as well. To be completely honest the amount of willful blindness that has gone into the creation and augmentation of both sets is just baffling. For how many jobs are their respective mythics even slightly tempting? SMN, WHM, PLD, maybe COR? Relics are also jokes compared to their Emp. counterparts when you compare their output vs the effort required to obtain them. This just shouldn't be, SE needs to really take a look at how people play their jobs and fully revise each set and their weaponskills (mods/aftermaths) to facilitate the existing and current player base as opposed to whatever player base they thought existed when they created them. Every job should have a real tough choice if/when they have to chose between obtaining a relic/mythic/empyrean.

And for crying out loud can we finally add the TOAU and WOTG jobs to the relic weapon user lists?