Job balancing?

[OmnysValefor]

If you read detlef's post that I replied to (but did not quote), he talks about enhancing the potency of songs.

The problem is, GEO tramples all over bard in most ways right now, quality, quantity or nothing.

[Olor]

I thought detlef's post was very thoughtful, it's clear they know the job well. I agree that just adding extra songs adds more work without actually fixing the issues with BRD.

[VoiceMemo]

If you are referring to this reply, I state again this wouldn't work because of the nature of way brd song power is calculated.

So roll all tiers of Valor Minuet into a single spell, same with Madrigals and March and Ballad. If they did this, it might not be necessary for all carols to be rolled into one, or all threnodies. GEO would be preferable for a mage setup, Bard for melee, and they could work well together in a mixed comp...

If melee ever come back into style.

For instance if you combine Ballad 1, 2, 3 into 1 spell that's 6mp/tic add on Gjallarhorn +4 and emp legs +1 and that would only total up to 11mp/tic, 10 mp less than the 21mp/tic that current 3 ballads do because of the fact that the +5 is added only once instead of to each of the individual songs(1+5, 2+5, 3+5). Combining all songs to one and limiting to 1 type per song is not the solution.

If normal NON REM brd gets such a large boost, does that mean those of us who did become REM brd get even more boots? or would we receive nothing for all of the work we put though to achieve REM status?

[dmuller30]

I don't understand why SMN still has a 30 second BP timer. Could you imagine if you cast Cures and all your cures went on a 30 second timer? BLM's can hit back to back to back with no other global timers on their spells. Maybe separate times for each summon? Even if we could spam BP's every 15 seconds or 30 with different timers per avatar we still are limited by the amount of mp we have. I would say separate timers on each avatar would be the best. Or make the skill similar to BST CD ?

[Railer]

The problem is for most content the nm's hp scaling for larger groups is way to steep and that leads to leaving a lot of jobs out. Sure I would like a bard thf ect in the group but then the nm becomes way more time consuming or impossible to beat.

[detlef]

If you are referring to this reply, I state again this wouldn't work because of the nature of way brd song power is calculated.



For instance if you combine Ballad 1, 2, 3 into 1 spell that's 6mp/tic add on Gjallarhorn +4 and emp legs +1 and that would only total up to 11mp/tic, 10 mp less than the 21mp/tic that current 3 ballads do because of the fact that the +5 is added only once instead of to each of the individual songs(1+5, 2+5, 3+5). Combining all songs to one and limiting to 1 type per song is not the solution.

If normal NON REM brd gets such a large boost, does that mean those of us who did become REM brd get even more boots? or would we receive nothing for all of the work we put though to achieve REM status?

I thought it was assumed that the buff would take song+ buffs into account. So let's say that Minuet V strength is equivalent to, say, the attack boost we currently get from a combination of Minuet V and IV including instrument boosts. Make Victory March as strong as the haste boost we get from double Marches. Same with Madrigals and so on. That's a pretty significant boost, and I'd argue that songs should be stronger GEO spells because dispels are a greater deterrent/irritation than having to stay in AoE range or recast a bubble.

Also, your argument about RME BRDs... so what? 4 songs is always more than 3. Ghorn is always stronger than regular instruments. Carn will always be best in slot duration boost. What more do you want? The job doesn't need stronger RMEs, it needs a stronger baseline.

[Urthdigger]

The problem is for most content the nm's hp scaling for larger groups is way to steep and that leads to leaving a lot of jobs out. Sure I would like a bard thf ect in the group but then the nm becomes way more time consuming or impossible to beat.

True, that is one of the big issues with job balancing nowadays. Not only are the lesser jobs practically worthless at the feet of gods like BLU and BLM, but they're literally worse than bringing nothing at all.

[OmnysValefor]

The problem is for most content the nm's hp scaling for larger groups is way to steep and that leads to leaving a lot of jobs out. Sure I would like a bard thf ect in the group but then the nm becomes way more time consuming or impossible to beat.

No, it really isn't.

SAM, DNC, WAR, DRK, BLU, THF.. etc are very capable DD. The problem is that, with small exception to BLU and I guess DNC, it's very difficult for them to survive being near the boss and still hit the boss.

Even if the -DT is on other sets of melee Ambuscade gear, we still have the problem of crippling enfeebles that mages simply aren't affected by.

All HP scaling means, and this does bother me, is that I can't carry friends through harder things and help them get gear. Their presence puts more of a burden on the rest of the group.

[OmnysValefor]

I thought it was assumed that the buff would take song+ buffs into account. So let's say that Minuet V strength is equivalent to, say, the attack boost we currently get from a combination of Minuet V and IV including instrument boosts. Make Victory March as strong as the haste boost we get from double Marches. Same with Madrigals and so on. That's a pretty significant boost, and I'd argue that songs should be stronger GEO spells because dispels are a greater deterrent/irritation than having to stay in AoE range or recast a bubble.

Also, your argument about RME BRDs... so what? 4 songs is always more than 3. Ghorn is always stronger than regular instruments. Carn will always be best in slot duration boost. What more do you want? The job doesn't need stronger RMEs, it needs a stronger baseline.

This is correct, but I'm replying directly to the part I bolded:

Exactly, the only problem with BRD is "baseline" GEO blows pimp BRD out of the water, it's like comparing the tankability of a Warrior to a Paladin.

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In reply to others:

According to https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Category:Madrigal, Double Madrigal from a best-in-slot Bard gives 71 (edit, said 58) accuracy.

The same 4 song bard can give two minuets for 172 (edit: had originally said 138, forgot to account for gear) attack.

A Dunna GEO can give an a melee with 1000 Attack (1000 attack is easily easily achievable) 482 attack (+48.2% to attack) and 75 accuracy (GEO's acc+/evia- bubbles are not % based). Or the GEO can give -28.3% defense to the monster changing a 1000atk vs 1000def to 1482 vs 717. Changes the ratio from 1:1 to 2:1.

Oh, and then, the fury/frailty GEO can entrust +50 accuracy centered on another party member with 50% uptime, or give them Haste or whatever. Or if they provide it as a debuff (indi-torpor, rather than indi-precision), it affects the whole alliance.

Also, the frailty is beneficial to the whole alliance.

[VoiceMemo]

Also, your argument about RME BRDs... so what? 4 songs is always more than 3. Ghorn is always stronger than regular instruments. Carn will always be best in slot duration boost. What more do you want? The job doesn't need stronger RMEs, it needs a stronger baseline.

My point being that those that worked hard to finish REM, what was the point for them? If song power is increased as you described WITH the song+ buffs, you're basically asking to give Relic power to ALL songs for free. Yes those that have R finished would have +4 more power but so what? +4 compared to the amount added to the system your describing is a pittance.

For instance Ballad 1+5+2+5+3+5=21 native now in your suggesting of combining all songs into 1 song with the power of the boosts added. Now Gjallar + legs adds 5 more for 26mp/tic. So who would go after Relic for only a 4mp/tic boost? What is the advantage then of a Relic brd?

Putting it another way percentage wise, current REM brd gets a 350% boost(3.5x that of normal song) with the way songs are setup normal ballad 1+2+3=6mp/tic to a 21mp/tic. Where as if base songs were boosted to relic/emp legs +1 power you'd only get a 124% boost(1.24x that of normal song). Who would go though all the work/gil of relic for a measly 4mp/tic more?