1 million subscribers

[Alhanelem]

You are the text book definition of a fanboy, a FFXIV fanboy. Nobody else would of accused me of "baseless attacks" in regards anything I posted, which implies you took it VERY personally. Quite how you think anyone will think you aren't is kinda funny.

Yes, anybody else would have, because thats what they were- baseless attacks, attacks without a basis. And I took it personally because you were talking to me specifically. How else was I supposed to take it? Considering you've been unwilling to prove your own case, from where I stand there's no basis for anything you've said. All it would take is a very simple task that you refuse to perform because you don't see it as your responsibility to make a case for your own arguments.

As I said, FFXIV probably has around 500k-600k subs (including China now), DQX probably around 300 and FFXI caps it off with around 100k.

You're underestimating XIV and overestimating XI. DQX's numbers I don't even have anything to make a remotely educated guess on but that sounds like an awful lot for a game that's mostly only in Japan. There's also a lot of probablys in that sentence- If only you were willing to show me what you were basing those guesses on. But I forgot, you don't "babyfeed," so I guess I'll never know. One would think you'd be eager to prove how wrong you think I am.

I've asked multiple times for the argument to be proven- something that you could do simply and easily. I on the other hand have offered to provide evidence for my conclusions but you dismissed them without even allowing that. You're basically breaking every rule of a good logical argument, and you want me to accept what you say as truth.

I think it's honestly a bit much to assume that 400 players AFK almost 24/7.

He might be exaggerating the number slightly but not by much. I can go to any of the 3 lower areas of jeuno by the guide stone and find more bazaaring characters than the game will display at one time in each of them. There are also a pretty large number of such players outside the moghouse and near the AH and certain home points in Audolin. I haven't tried counting them but when you factor in afk people that may be in other locations, I don't think "400" is a ridiculous number. Of course, every online game has a lot of people AFK, but FFXI's rate may be higher since being AFK can make you money.

[FrankReynolds]

I would say that probably 30 of the 60 people online in my link shell are afk at any given time. I personally have 2 characters that are logged in 24/7, so 400 might not be that far off.

[Pixela]

Yes, anybody else would have, because thats what they were- baseless attacks, attacks without a basis. And I took it personally because you were talking to me specifically. How else was I supposed to take it? Considering you've been unwilling to prove your own case, from where I stand there's no basis for anything you've said. All it would take is a very simple task that you refuse to perform because you don't see it as your responsibility to make a case for your own arguments.

No they would not, and they surely would not of used the word attacked either. You made a few comments "attacking" FFXI, nobody took offense at them as you did to this "attack" on FFXIV.

i think ffxi has a total of 100 players across all servers all of which have a buttload of mules on different accounts

that's not as big of an exaggeration as we'd like it to be.

I really don't know why you're pushing that I didn't provide links like it means something, you know I'm correct and the links are easily obtainable so you are just being childish (admittedly I was being too but only because you were being incredibly lazy). You post so many things that are either flat out wrong because you are unwilling or unable to fact check with google.

I think the only reson you had to not find the information on your own when it's easily available with google is that you thought making me post the links was a +1 to you, I see no other reason you refused to take 5 seconds to find them (you already did but this is just a back and fourth at this point).

You're underestimating XIV and overestimating XI. DQX's numbers I don't even have anything to make a remotely educated guess on but that sounds like an awful lot for a game that's mostly only in Japan. There's also a lot of probablys in that sentence- If only you were willing to show me what you were basing those guesses on. But I forgot, you don't "babyfeed," so I guess I'll never know. One would think you'd be eager to prove how wrong you think I am.

I've asked multiple times for the argument to be proven- something that you could do simply and easily. I on the other hand have offered to provide evidence for my conclusions but you dismissed them without even allowing that. You're basically breaking every rule of a good logical argument, and you want me to accept what you say as truth.

You spend a lot of time arguing and writing large posts yet don't bother to get or check any facts at all so quite how you would know how many players anything has is beyond me, it also does not surprise me that you have no idea that DQx is incredibly popular in japan (there are a few JP only titles that have large player numbers). This information is easily obtained yet you chose not to see it (or admit to it) because you think it adds some kind of weight to your argument I suppose.

If you can find me any number that shows a sub base for FFXIV that is higher than 600k I'll look at it and concede you might have a case that I'm underestimating it, maybe it's your turn to post a link?

Let's use a little common sense though, if FFXIV really has grown then it would of been forced to add more servers to handle more players. The game was struggling to handle 600k players during the first month with the servers with constant log-in queues on almost every server.

As an example though, a game that did have a large base of 1.5 million subscribers (SWTOR). It had 208 servers to be able to handle that many subscribers. Let's assume a game has 500k subscribers, how many servers would that be if it followed that player to server ratio above? Now check how many servers FFXIV has. I can see the refusal to use a calculator coming next.

Again though, the main argument that was given by the CEO (not me) was that all 3 games have around 1 million subscribers at this point in time. A CEO would not of used old numbers if new ones were significantly better now, especially not considering his audience and the state of the company.

Best case scenario for FFXIV is, FFXI 80k, DQX 300k (100k below it's highest point) which puts FFXIV at 620k Does that make you feel better instead of 500-600k?

Again as I said before, that would still make FFXI the most profitable FF title ever given the same timelines.

He might be exaggerating the number slightly but not by much. I can go to any of the 3 lower areas of jeuno by the guide stone and find more bazaaring characters than the game will display at one time in each of them. There are also a pretty large number of such players outside the moghouse and near the AH and certain home points in Audolin. I haven't tried counting them but when you factor in afk people that may be in other locations, I don't think "400" is a ridiculous number. Of course, every online game has a lot of people AFK, but FFXI's rate may be higher since being AFK can make you money.

Well the point was just because someone will afk or bazaar it does not follow they will bazaar 24/7 or between 2 prime time slots. Many players AFK or bazaar, they still log when it's time to sleep or whatever. I've played FFXI for many years and I knew very few that would afk 24/7. When they goto work or when they playing on a console maybe but not leave their pc on all night and day.

This is why it's so hard to calculate how many subscribers FFXI has just by eyeballing, the game has worldwide servers with multiple peak hours and it's really hard to give an accurate number of AFKs that would be online during all of those peaks. Unless you actually write down names and be thorough you can't just assume 400 people per server afk for massive amounts of time.

To say 400 people per server never log and then take that number from 3 prime time slots for each server is a little too harsh imo.

[Alhanelem]

you know I'm correct

Sorry, no, I don't know you're correct, because you haven't given me what I need to believe you're correct, and not only that you're claiming to have it but refusing to provide it. You can keep on dreaming that I believe the things you say but until you link to your evidence your words are full of hot air.

I don't know why you can't grasp the concept that a logical argument must be backed by evidence. If you don't provide evidence, your argument is fallacious.

This is why it's so hard to calculate how many subscribers FFXI has just by eyeballing, the game has worldwide servers with multiple peak hours

Actually it's easier, because without one definitive peak time, it's easier to estimate an average of people online at all times of day (rather than just basing it on one time of day), since you can look at any given time and assume that, within a certain margin of error, that many people are on much of the time and not just when you looked. Plus, it's really not hard at all to just take samples at every hour of the day and come up with a fairly accurate number.

[Pixela]

Sorry, no, I don't know you're correct, because you haven't given me what I need to believe you're correct, and not only that you're claiming to have it but refusing to provide it. You can keep on dreaming that I believe the things you say but until you link to your evidence your words are full of hot air.

I don't know why you can't grasp the concept that a logical argument must be backed by evidence. If you don't provide evidence, your argument is fallacious.

Well this argument only works if the person isn't playing a childish push and pull game, so that goes out the window. If I tell you it's raining and you ask for proof, me saying "well look out the window behind you" that is still offering valid proof. I don't have to take a photo of the rain, timestamp it and bring 2 witnesses to qualify as proof. Offering enough information to very easily find it (which I did) is proof enough.

Actually it's easier, because without one definitive peak time, it's easier to estimate an average of people online at all times of day (rather than just basing it on one time of day), since you can look at any given time and assume that, within a certain margin of error, that many people are on much of the time and not just when you looked. Plus, it's really not hard at all to just take samples at every hour of the day and come up with a fairly accurate number.

What, your "logic" is genuinely baffling to me. How does that make sense at all? if you have regional servers you just go on at 5am and check player numbers then to get a really good indication of AFK player numbers, how many players would be online at 5am on a regional server? As such you can calculate AFK players much easier than a server that is active 24/7 by different regions. If you have a worldwide server (which is Euro, North and South America, Japan, Australia, the middle east). They all have different players logging on and logging off 24/7. Unless you actually listed every name at each prime time slot, add them together and then subtracted duplicates you can't say how many are afk 24/7. 400 just seems way too high to be sensible, 400 people per server don't leave their computers online 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for no reason. Bazaars aren't really a good reason these days, I farm dynamis/limbus and a lot of other things and it rarely takes more than a few hours to sell everything each day.

Plus, it's really not hard at all to just take samples at every hour of the day and come up with a fairly accurate number.

For someone that can't muster enough energy to do a google search I would say that's probably incredibly hard.

[Alhanelem]

Two pages later, still no proof of your argument. I wonder how many more pages it will take.

For someone that can't muster enough energy to do a google search I would say that's probably incredibly hard.

It's not hard at all. It's just not MY responsbility to prove YOUR argument. I've said this probably 200 times now. You don't seem to understand how arguments work, perhaps you should take a course on it, then you'll understand why YOU, and no one else, needs to prove YOUR arguments for them to be accepted.

Your continued refusal to do something that you yourself claim is super easy to do is evidence to me that you don't actually have any proof.

You can't make assertions in court without presenting evidence, why should I accept assertions without evidence here?

If I tell you it's raining and you ask for proof, me saying "well look out the window behind you" that is still offering valid proof.

That's not the same situation as this at all. And if this were a court of law, you'd have to show the court that it's raining, not ask the defendant to do it. It's more like telling the judge to go find the evidence at the crime scene of a murder. It's not his responsibility to go fetch the evidence, the prosecution has to present it. You are the prosecution in this case. You need to open the window and show me it's raining, not ask me to do it.

And I'm not angry, by the way. I just want you to produce the evidence. You'd think i was asking you to go pull some dangerous daredevil stunt or something.

[Pixela]

It's not hard at all. It's just not MY responsbility to prove YOUR argument. I've said this probably 200 times now. You don't seem to understand how arguments work, perhaps you should take a course on it, then you'll understand why YOU, and no one else, needs to prove YOUR arguments for them to be accepted.

Your continued refusal to do something that you yourself claim is super easy to do is evidence to me that you don't actually have any proof.

You can't make assertions in court without presenting evidence, why should I accept assertions without evidence here?

Why do you keep using a court analogy? This is a silly and petty argument between us on a computer game forum. Anyone else reading that wanted to prove or disprove what was written probably has already found it so this is just you and me arguing back and fourth about information I fact checked being unreal to you until I post a link to it, even though you are more than capable of finding it with less effort than you take to write a reply to me. The truth is, if I was wrong and you knew I was wrong you would of proved me wrong long ago. You can't so this is all you have to argue about.

At this point it's just the principal of it to you and/or being stubborn. It's still funny to see how far we can take the non-argument, the bumping is nice though since my aim was for XI players to know these numbers that they may of missed.

That's not the same situation as this at all. And if this were a court of law, you'd have to show the court that it's raining, not ask the defendant to do it. It's more like telling the judge to go find the evidence at the crime scene of a murder. It's not his responsibility to go fetch the evidence, the prosecution has to present it. You are the prosecution in this case. You need to open the window and show me it's raining, not ask me to do it.

And I'm not angry, by the way. I just want you to produce the evidence. You'd think i was asking you to go pull some dangerous daredevil stunt or something.

Court analogy again, there is a difference between proving a fact to a court and 2 people arguing about nonsense on a forum. Especially when you can find the exact same information I can within minutes.

I'm not angry either, if this wasn't entertaining or serving my purpose I would of stopped arguing with you over nothing a long time ago.

Again though the facts are that all 3 Square MMO titles have less than 1 million subscribers combined (according to the CEO of Square enix last week), that you can work out bare minimum figures for each one with a fair degree of accuracy and that those numbers are around:

FFXI 100k
FFXIV 600k
DQX 300k

Whether you think those numbers are good or not is upto you, the fact of the matter though is that if not for Square and FFXIV players taking a misleading announcement (player numbers/accounts) and getting people assured that FFXIV wrongly had 2.5 to 3 million subscribers very few people would now be so dissapointed and surprised that XIV has as "few" subs as it actually does. Being honest or at least not trying to fool people is the key to how people meet facts (that they are forced to divulge) at a later date. This now defunked false argument is as silly as people asserting that the director stated he would close the game down before going f2p, that again is false but widely held belief about FFXIV.

The misleading numbers have since been taken off their website a couple of months ago, probably due to the time of releasing the facts to shareholders looming closer.

Personally I think that 600k or so subs for FFXIV is poor for many reasons, even though it was more than enough for FFXI.
Initial Budget
2nd expensive relaunch/dev cycle
companies current situation and share price
SE history of dissatisfaction with moderate successes (tomb raider/kain and lynch)
Player retention issues in all modern games compared to 12 years ago.
Having to release in more regions than FFXI to maintain those numbers.
Twice and possibly 3 times as many server stations with all the costs that go along with that.

Having said that the numbers are not awful, they just seem awful because expectations were put incredibly high. Well above what they could of ever delivered on (even with Chinese release it seems).

[PlumbGame]

There is nothing wrong with being a fanboy. I can't believe that someone would really stray away from their argument by basically calling someone a fanboy, therefore they win. I also can't believe someone would care so much to be called one. Who cares. If you are playing this game, you are technically a fanboy, or you wouldn't be playing it.

Also, how come your numbers keep getting lower. First it was over 1mil, then it was just at 1mil, now it's lower than 1mil. They actually stated that it was over 1mil, but ultimately, who cares. The advertisement for FFXIV use to say over 2.4subs, not characters either. Maybe that's not where it's at now, maybe that's lower than it's at, but that's what it said, but still, who cares.

[Alhanelem]

This is a silly and petty argument between us on a computer game forum.

Well, I agree with that.
The only reason we're having this argument is you're too concerned with what you want to call "babyfeeding" when what I'm actually asking of you is to support your argument with sources. You can't convince me of anything without data and the sources of that data, and I will maintain until the end of time that it's your responsibility to prove your argument, because thats how a logical argument works. That's really all there is to it- If you don't want to prove your argument, then I can't consider what you say to be valid.

All you have to do is link me to your sources. If you don't want to do that, then you don't actually want to convince me that your "facts" and figures are accurate. Which, there's nothing wrong with that, you just have to understand that without doing that I won't consider you to be correct since I currently don't believe that you are.

Also, how come your numbers keep getting lower. First it was over 1mil, then it was just at 1mil, now it's lower than 1mil.

There were two different numbers given by the CEO in two different locations at two different times. The 2014 Fiscal Year financial report for SE stated that their MMOs had "nearly 1 million" subscribers. In one of the articles linked on the first page, which has a much later date, the CEO states that they now have "over 1 million subscribers." Since this quote came after the financial report, this would suggest that their total subscriber base has increased by some amount. However, he poster that this argument has been going on with has asserted that MMOs "simply don't grow that way." and that there is no way any MMO could have more subscribers 1 year in than it had shortly after launch. He then offered his guess at how many players of that nearly or over 1 million players belong to each of SE's three MMOs. He threw some numbers around- numbers that I suspect are "accounts" not "subscribers." but so far he hasn't provided any sources for his claims.

The only site I've found that tries to keep track of how many subscribers (p2p) or active accounts (f2) each game on the market has, mmodata.net , hasn't been updated in over a year, and they didn't have any data for FFXIV or DQX at that time. Of course we don't know where their numbers come from and they could be bunk anyway, so I'm not using them, but those are the only charts I found.

There is nothing wrong with being a fanboy. I can't believe that someone would really stray away from their argument by basically calling someone a fanboy, therefore they win. I also can't believe someone would care so much to be called one. Who cares. If you are playing this game, you are technically a fanboy, or you wouldn't be playing it.

The main reason someone would be offended is just that there is an implication of bias. Personally I would argue that I play and enjoy both FFXI and FFXIV and thus I'm not really biased towards one or the other. You're 100% right though, you can't just dismiss someone's opinion because you think they're a big fan.

TL;DR when you call someone a fanboy, you are probably saying so because you think their judgement is clouded by their being a fan.

[Pixela]

There is nothing wrong with being a fanboy. I can't believe that someone would really stray away from their argument by basically calling someone a fanboy, therefore they win. I also can't believe someone would care so much to be called one. Who cares. If you are playing this game, you are technically a fanboy, or you wouldn't be playing it.

Also, how come your numbers keep getting lower. First it was over 1mil, then it was just at 1mil, now it's lower than 1mil. They actually stated that it was over 1mil, but ultimately, who cares. The advertisement for FFXIV use to say over 2.4subs, not characters either. Maybe that's not where it's at now, maybe that's lower than it's at, but that's what it said, but still, who cares.

There is a big difference between a fan and a "fanboy" A fanboy will protect their object of affection if you dare say anything against it. Whether it's true or not is irrelevant to them, it becomes personal if you say anything negative.

The actual wording he used was nearly 1 million for all 3, so it's less than. Less or around both work though. Again this wasn't read from the financial reports by the media, it was a statement read out by the CEO to shareholders and the media.

Jan 02, 2015

Three major MMO titles - Final Fantasy 14: A Realm Reborn which began operation last August, Dragon Quest 10, which was launched in August 2012, and Final Fantasy 11, which has entered its thirteenth year of operation-maintain nearly 1,000,000 paying subscribers all together, and have established a solid revenue base," reads a statement from president and representative director Yosuke Matsuda.

FFXIV never had millions of subscribers, it has 2.5 million registered accounts which was said to be subscribers by some people but it was never actual subscriber numbers and they never said it was (They implied some things but they never actually said it). Registered accounts/registered players is a pretty useless figure, almost every mmo you can mention has millions of them. That, and you have to keep in mind that registered accounts/sales figures of FFXIV was bloated due to the numbers applying to not only ARR but V1 too (and free trials and some betas). It's really not a useful number unless you plan to mislead.