[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[Dale]

Your anecdote is not the reality that the rest of us face. Your friends are not the norm. Just because things are fine for your friend that does not mean things are fine. The rest of have to play in a far more competitive and results driven environment than you do. I don't mean that to be insulting, I'm just pointing out the stark reality the rest of us face.



When the DPS/DD class was invented.



Unfortunately you're in the vast minority with that line of thinking. But honestly what would be so bad if it were both? What if I could have fun playing the job of my choice AND do the same amount of damage as another job? Why does it have to be either or? That's my question. Why can't a BST and her pet be just as strong as a WAR or SAM or MNK? What would be the harm in that?

It's only the reality because people allow it to be though. You can get results on this game without having to play the strongest DPS jobs.

But to answer your question - it wouldn't be no harm. I see no problem with a beastmaster along with their pet being able to match a warrior in terms of damage. But the fact is it doesn't really matter even if they did. People would still find a reason to exclude certain jobs. Even if they were to make every single DD job do the exact same damage they would still come up with some bs reason to exclude certain jobs. That's the part of my argument that is being missed here.

Players who are actively looking for an excuse to exclude other players are going to find one. Damage output is just an excuse they use. So if SE starts down that road of trying to appease players like that it will ruin this game. I am 100% confident of that because I've seen it happen on so many others games.

In other words: SE can't fix this problem. No amount of job balance will ever fix this problem. I've seen other games try - with a constant state of nerfing and buffing over a period of many years and still I read the exact same thing from these types of players how this job sucks because of this and that and this job is over-powered because of this and that. It's just never-ending and there is no solution except not to pay these types of players any mind.

[Camiie]

Which games are those and exactly what was done?

[Dale]

Which games are those and exactly what was done?

World of Warcraft if you want a more popular example. That game actually used to have class diversity and interesting and unique ways to play your class. But due to exactly this kind of mentality we are discussing I watched as that game was basically butchered and everything was nerfed and buffed to the point of boredom to appease these types of players.

You wouldn't know it to look at it now, but that game used to have a wide range of different support classes and play-styles. But they were all destroyed because they didn't do enough damage to satisfy those players who see everything in terms of DPS DPS DPS. And it would be tragic to see a similar result happen here.

A perfect balance is never going to happen. Nor should it in my opinion. Imbalance is part of what makes the gameplay interesting and sets classes apart from each other to begin with.

Of course no game is perfect, and improvements can always be made. And I'm not saying I wouldn't support improvements to the beastmaster. But these players who demand the most damage else they won't even group with you are just being completely unreasonable. And if you try to satisfy them, the game will suffer as a result. Because they will never be satisfied and they are always going to say certain jobs suck and not group with them no matter what SE does.

[Dale]

Let me put it this way, if a job doesn't get invite because it's 10% behind SAM, I agree that it's "player mentality" issue. It's extremely hard to balance each job to do exactly the same dmg, 10% behind another job is acceptable.

If a job LOWERs party output when it tries to engage and DD with another SAM, then something is seriously wrong with the design.....that means 1 person can do the work of 2 ppl, the gap is extremely huge in this case.

IMO, it's not a good idea to just pretend everything is "player mentality" issue and walk away, that's not solving the problem.

That's why I had to call Dale out, cuz apparently he's shifting focus......if we pointed out something wrong with the game design, he'd just said "But I do event without this job all the time just fine, it's your own problem if you want to play the game like that!", how is that even doing anything to the discussion?

The point is that there's something wrong with the job balance when it comes to SAM and SC, we just pointed that out, and we continue to make threads about it, then Dale just pops on the forum blaming the player about this. Unfortunately, unless the entire server's full of Dale who doesn't invite SAM to events, it will continue to be a job balance issue that we can't ignore.

You can call me out if you wish. But I remain convinced that is a player mentality issue to blame for people feeling as if they don't contribute to a group rather than some grave imbalance.

I routinely beat endgame content with jobs like dragoons and beastmasters on this game. If there was really such a huge flaw in this game's design that makes these jobs not even worth a spot in a group, then that would not be possible.. And I know you don't like when I use that argument - but it's the truth as I see it. So that's why I keep using it.

I never meant to imply I didn't invite Samurais to events either. I can however do endgame content without them. You do not need samurais. You can be successful with or without them. That was my point.

Arguing for change is one thing. But believing your job is just so awful it doesn't even contribute and doesn't deserve an invite is another. That is what I blame the player mentality for - causing people to feel that way about their jobs. And that is why I felt the need to just pop in.

Also: I should point out I gave my reasons as to why I didn't think a Samurai was over-powered. None of them reasons had to do with the player mentality. So I don't think you are being fair to me by when you say I just pretend everything is "player mentality" issue and walk away. That's not what I did.

[Maikeru_Sylph]

Saying that only a select few jobs can enjoy content is the same as saying only a select few players can enjoy content. Yes, everyone can level every job to 99, and therefore enjoy all the content, but what about the new players? Or people that just don't find certain jobs fun or appealing? Should they be forced to play something they don't enjoy? The moment you start doing something you don't enjoy, boredom kicks in, and too much boredom can lead to quitting. If SE's goal is to make this game more player friendly, then isn't expecting every player to have every job at 99, defeating the purpose? Leveling, gearing, meriting, skilling up, and learning every job is not an easy task, especially for new players. You're looking at months, maybe years of work. And the community expects so much from you. When you stop to think about it, this game is far from being new player friendly.

[Seillan]

Saying that only a select few jobs can enjoy content is the same as saying only a select few players can enjoy content. Yes, everyone can level every job to 99, and therefore enjoy all the content, but what about the new players? Or people that just don't find certain jobs fun or appealing? Should they be forced to play something they don't enjoy? The moment you start doing something you don't enjoy, boredom kicks in, and too much boredom can lead to quitting. If SE's goal is to make this game more player friendly, then isn't expecting every player to have every job at 99, defeating the purpose? Leveling, gearing, meriting, skilling up, and learning every job is not an easy task, especially for new players. You're looking at months, maybe years of work. And the community expects so much from you. When you stop to think about it, this game is far from being new player friendly.

As a new player, these have been my thoughts as well. It's really disheartening to hear about how some classes are basically excluded from most of the interesting grouping activities in the game later on and that "playing just for fun" seems more like a minority POV in the game. Naturally, quite a few of the jobs that interest me the most fall into that niche and the more I play, the more the prospect of playing alone in the later levels gnaws at me. Simply put, I'm not going to play a job I don't like, and if that means I end up mainly playing alone and miss out on a bunch of stuff, then so be it -- despite how much that might suck.

Although I agree that some of this falls on the developers with class balance and whatnot, I'd also have to agree with Dale that a lot of it is due to player mentality too. The game has quite a steep hill to climb for new players with all the things you need to do to catch up with everyone (that part doesn't bother me at all, honestly) but I think the biggest barrier of entry by far is this veteran player base that seems (from what I constantly read around here) to have no patience with inexperienced players. When a game gets to be this old, and the player base obviously starts shrinking, the last thing you want to do is perpetuate an almost toxic environment that excludes the few new players that might have otherwise stuck around. Like it or not, playing a game like an efficient business essentially -- one of which basically tells people they have to play this one certain way or to GTFO -- is probably going to do more damage to the longevity of the game than anything else. No amount of DPS balance is ever going to change that counter-productive, detrimental attitude (IMO).

[Dale]

No amount of DPS balance is ever going to change that counter-productive, detrimental attitude (IMO).

Exactly. You managed to say what I was trying to say in 2 pages in one sentence. Thank you

[Sasuko]

Did you know Zeid "outparses" Noillurie with the same buffs?

Just some fun food for thought comparing DPS of two different jobs without any additives. (Yes, I know it's not exactly the same as PCs and he's not a proper scythe DRK either.)

As a new player, these have been my thoughts as well. It's really disheartening to hear about how some classes are basically excluded from most of the interesting grouping activities in the game later on and that "playing just for fun" seems more like a minority POV in the game. Naturally, quite a few of the jobs that interest me the most fall into that niche and the more I play, the more the prospect of playing alone in the later levels gnaws at me. Simply put, I'm not going to play a job I don't like, and if that means I end up mainly playing alone and miss out on a bunch of stuff, then so be it -- despite how much that might suck.

Although I agree that some of this falls on the developers with class balance and whatnot, I'd also have to agree with Dale that a lot of it is due to player mentality too. The game has quite a steep hill to climb for new players with all the things you need to do to catch up with everyone (that part doesn't bother me at all, honestly) but I think the biggest barrier of entry by far is this veteran player base that seems (from what I constantly read around here) to have no patience with inexperienced players. When a game gets to be this old, and the player base obviously starts shrinking, the last thing you want to do is perpetuate an almost toxic environment that excludes the few new players that might have otherwise stuck around. Like it or not, playing a game like an efficient business essentially -- one of which basically tells people they have to play this one certain way or to GTFO -- is probably going to do more damage to the longevity of the game than anything else. No amount of DPS balance is ever going to change that counter-productive, detrimental attitude (IMO).

And this is so very well said. I agree with it very much. There are improvements that could be made to better "balance" jobs with their respective base function, but there is definitely a player mentality barrier involved as well. Unfortunately it is much easier for people to see number totals than the other benefits a DPS job could bring to the table alongside their lower damage output.

Also Seillan, I wish you the best of luck in finding a group of people that are laid back and play for the fun of everyone involved instead of just finding ways to "go it alone" so to speak. They're out there!

[Panda2013]

I also agree. And it's been getting worse. Recently for incursion, and end game event which i thought was less discriminatory, people have only been asking for Sam. We know SAM is the top DD, but that doesn't mean other DDs are not capable as well. I know people say to form your own groups and run within that group, but for a casual player it's hard to have fun with other players who are so into efficiency and business that they criticize anything outside of what they see the norm. This is why I believe the casual player population completely disappeared overnight. It's sad that people who played this game purely for fun(casuals) have fallen out of love with the game. My entire linkshell is gone and I used to have so much fun just socializing with them all while reaching our end game goals. I find it difficult just to maintain a conversation with the current population, without them pointing out what would be more efficient.

While I do agree that it's more of an issue with the population, the problem causes several jobs to be completely unused, and therefore it becomes a game problem. Something needs to be done.

[Camiie]

World of Warcraft if you want a more popular example. That game actually used to have class diversity and interesting and unique ways to play your class. But due to exactly this kind of mentality we are discussing I watched as that game was basically butchered and everything was nerfed and buffed to the point of boredom to appease these types of players.

I'm pretty sure WoW's classes changed so drastically more as an attempt to continually simplify the game than to keep everyone's DPS in line. FFXI doesn't require that sort of change. BST doesn't need to necessarily play differently. It simply needs more output. I'm not proposing that the pet be placed on auto-pilot or they do away with the need for pet aggro control and maintenance. Pets need to become uncapped, be un-neutered as far as abilities, and allowed to be buffed. Killer Instinct needs to become a buff that's more universally useful.

A perfect balance is never going to happen. Nor should it in my opinion. Imbalance is part of what makes the gameplay interesting and sets classes apart from each other to begin with.

I'm not asking for perfect. I'm not that stupid. But right now SE doesn't even care to try. This is still a group based game and if a job has nothing substantial to offer a group then what's even the point of it? I'm not even talking DPS at this point. There's literally nothing a BST can sell himself on to get into a group. Emergency tank isn't a selling point. You can blame player mentality all you want, but we can only work with what SE gives us. We can't take our lemons and make lemonade. No matter how hard we squeeze there's no juice to be had.

Of course no game is perfect, and improvements can always be made. And I'm not saying I wouldn't support improvements to the beastmaster. But these players who demand the most damage else they won't even group with you are just being completely unreasonable. And if you try to satisfy them, the game will suffer as a result. Because they will never be satisfied and they are always going to say certain jobs suck and not group with them no matter what SE does.

The game IS suffering now. Sure it's for a myriad of reasons, but I guarantee you that the lack of anything resembling class balance is one of them.