[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[Afania]

If you think it's just human nature and there is nothing wrong with it: why then do you see it so negatively when I point it out? It seems to me if you really did feel it was justified to exclude others based on these reasons you wouldn't get so defensive when I disagree with it. So perhaps there is a part of you who feels it's wrong too

And no, I don't expect a perfect world. But I do expect a world where people don't treat video games like a business. That's not an unreasonable or naïve expectation in my estimation.

But in real world, ppl do treat video games like a business......ppl even sell gold/account for real money and open gold farming company in China to make money. IT IS business.

Sorry if your expectation doesn't work irl, there isn't anything you can do to change that. The fundamental of MMORPG is business...it just is.

[Dale]

But in real world, ppl do treat video games like a business......ppl even sell gold/account for real money and open gold farming company in China to make money. IT IS business.

Some people do yes. People like you

And I am pointing out how silly I think that is and destructive it is to the health of this game.

I also speak out against RMT as well. Just because something occurs in the real world doesn't mean I have to condone it and can't speak out against it.

[Afania]

Some people do yes. People like you

And I am pointing out how silly I think that is and destructive it is to the health of this game.

I also speak out against RMT as well. Just because something occurs in the real world doesn't mean I have to condone it and can't speak out against it.

I think RMT hurts the game in the long run as well, but I don't think aiming for max efficiency is destructive to the health of this game. IMO it makes the game more fun/challenging do push the group's limit and do it better, that's how many gamers enjoy video games for decades....to play the game better and aim for higher scores/performance. Gamers aim for higher scores since video game exists, I don't see what's wrong with a group aiming for faster clears.

If you don't like to aim for faster clears, don't play with ppl that aim for faster clears, it's as simple as that.

I think we should stop this discussion here, since it's a proven fact that we don't agree with each other about this issue.

[Dale]

I think RMT hurts the game in the long run as well, but I don't think aiming for max efficiency is destructive to the health of this game. IMO it makes the game more fun/challenging do push the group's limit and do it better, that's how many gamers enjoy video games for decades....to play the game better and aim for higher scores. Gamers aim for higher score since video game exists, I don't see what's wrong with a group aiming for faster clears.

I think we should stop this discussion here, since it's a proven fact that we don't agree with each other about this issue.

That much is proven beyond a reasonable doubt. We definitely don't agree. Because I believe treating a game like a business and refusing to play with others simply because they do not offer max efficiency in terms of killing faster is just as harmful if not even more so in the long run as RMT is.

And I'm perfectly content to leave it here as well.

[Ulth]

There are certain jobs that I feel ppl just exaggerating it's uselessness(such as THF), but there are certain job that's clearly imbalanced and that needs a fix.

Well yeah it is a little exaggerated. In the condition where thief can sneak attack and trick attack reliably their damage is on par with the normal damage dealers. Only the problem is after the first sneak attack enmity is capped and the mob is spinning like a top. For pulling hate, that is the best case scenario for thief. On difficult AA fights when you pull hate you get a hate reset, because you die. I don't even use sneak attack in those fights because the down time from weakness isn't worth it. On the topic of enmity, accomplice and collaborator are only useful in "oh shit" situations when the white mage pulls hate. Even then it hardly works because unless the white mage is on the ball for that, they die on the first hit. It would be nice if thief could use it proactively to keep the white mage's hate from getting there, but the range is too short, and the devs already told us if they made it longer it would blow up the server.

So yeah thief's two special snowflake uses are treasure hunter and enmity control, and their enmity control is useless. The following is a list of other things thief is known for that is also useless: Gilfinder, Evasion, Resist Gravity, Mug, Hide, Feint, Despoil, Conspirator. Then there is the general things that mobs do that mess with thief like everything doing aoe knockbacks that bind and are unavoidable.

I also feel something should be done to improve dual wield, but that is less of a thief issue and more of a NIN, DNC, THF, BLU issue.

[Afania]

That much is proven beyond a reasonable doubt. We definitely don't agree. Because I believe treating a game like a business and refusing to play with others simply because they do not offer max efficiency in terms of killing faster is just as harmful if not even more so in the long run as RMT is.

And I'm perfectly content to leave it here as well.

It is more than just treating a game like a business, but also because that's how some ppl have fun in a video game.......when ppl play tetris they aim for highest score as possible, when they play flappy bird they aim for highest score as possible. I agree not everyone pushes very hard to aim for high score, but you can't deny that quite a lot of ppl aim for highest performance possible in video games.

You kept blaming how it's "treating video game like business"'s fault, but you just can't accept the fact that other players have different opinion toward having fun.

And more importantly, you blame others for being "harmful" to the game just because they have different opinion toward having fun.

THAT is the reason why I feel you're not respecting other's opinion. You may think you're not doing personal attack because you're using polite words, but in your mind you view other's opinion so negatively and overly exaggerate the negative impact toward other's opinion of having fun.

In the end you're not going to change anything, you can't change how others have fun. If player A just doesn't have fun when playing player B, player A has the right not to invite them. If you blame player A for not inviting player B, you're not going to change how player A can have fun, you just bring this negative attitude in the entire discussion that in most cases made the game less enjoyable for every player......you know, being harmful to the game.

The point is, if player A doesn't invite player B, it is not nearly as harmful as you made it sound like. Because there's nothing is stopping player B to find someone else to play with, that actually enjoys playing with player B, like player C or player D.

I'm sorry but I just can't agree that it's a crime to pick who you play with.

[doublesbrian]

I wish you two would get a damn room, did you really need to come back and type all that to him after you both agreed to leave it be, i wish i could bash both your heads together i'm sure everyone else is sick of reading the pair of you bitch at each all the time.

[Seillan]

And this is so very well said. I agree with it very much. There are improvements that could be made to better "balance" jobs with their respective base function, but there is definitely a player mentality barrier involved as well. Unfortunately it is much easier for people to see number totals than the other benefits a DPS job could bring to the table alongside their lower damage output.

Also Seillan, I wish you the best of luck in finding a group of people that are laid back and play for the fun of everyone involved instead of just finding ways to "go it alone" so to speak. They're out there!

Well thanks very much . I'm glad to see I'm not alone in those thoughts.

I'll definitely keep looking around for a a more casual-minded shell; playing by yourself does get pretty depressing after doing it for awhile so I'm all for getting more involved in the community. I'm also still debating on possibly moving to a smaller server as they've always seemed to have more tight-knit, friendly communities (plus I hear it's easier to hunt NM on them, which I'd really like to do one day.) That's been my experience with quite a few other games at least. Speaking of which, what's Quetzalcoatl like?

[Dale]

It is more than just treating a game like a business, but also because that's how some ppl have fun in a video game.......when ppl play tetris they aim for highest score as possible, when they play flappy bird they aim for highest score as possible. I agree not everyone pushes very hard to aim for high score, but you can't deny that quite a lot of ppl aim for highest performance possible in video games.

You kept blaming how it's "treating video game like business"'s fault, but you just can't accept the fact that other players have different opinion toward having fun.

And more importantly, you blame others for being "harmful" to the game just because they have different opinion toward having fun.

THAT is the reason why I feel you're not respecting other's opinion. You may think you're not doing personal attack because you're using polite words, but in your mind you view other's opinion so negatively and overly exaggerate the negative impact toward other's opinion of having fun.

In the end you're not going to change anything, you can't change how others have fun. If player A just doesn't have fun when playing player B, player A has the right not to invite them. If you blame player A for not inviting player B, you're not going to change how player A can have fun, you just bring this negative attitude in the entire discussion that in most cases made the game less enjoyable for every player......you know, being harmful to the game.

The point is, if player A doesn't invite player B, it is not nearly as harmful as you made it sound like. Because there's nothing is stopping player B to find someone else to play with, that actually enjoys playing with player B, like player C or player D.

I'm sorry but I just can't agree that it's a crime to pick who you play with.

So I guess you decided not to stop the discussion.

I never said it was a crime to pick you play with. But refusing to group with others just because they do not offer max-efficiency in terms of damage is harmful to the game. Why? Because it leads to exactly the situation we have here - where so many different jobs get excluded because of people like you go out of the way to find insignificant reasons to try and shut them out of content. It's the same type of elitism I have seen on countless other MMORPGs and it is precisely this kind of attitude that is responsible for bringing the genre down and ruining much of the role playing elements that make games like this interesting to begin with. So I'm not exaggerating the negative effect this has in the least.

Also: if excluding others is someone's idea of having fun then they have a very poor way of enjoying themselves.

And I'm aware you and others hold this opinion. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with it or accept it. Because I don't. I will never accept this kind of attitude toward others. So you might as well stop trying to justify it to me because you are never going to succeed at it. People who want to be so damn picky about who they play with really have no business playing a MMORPG to begin with in my opinion. Because this isn't a business. It's a multi-player role playing game. And people should be able to play the jobs they enjoy without being systematically alienated because of it.

[Zheta]

I'll definitely keep looking around for a a more casual-minded shell; playing by yourself does get pretty depressing after doing it for awhile so I'm all for getting more involved in the community.

If you're on Asura: http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxi/comment...rver_join_the/