[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[Dale]

You claimed that a job that can solo can hold its own in group play, and that simply isn't the case. Now I get that "holding its own" is subjective, but when your job's sole purpose is DPS and even at your best you are orders of magnitude behind someone half-assing another job then something is terribly wrong in my opinion.



Because that is what the job is there for. To not simply do damage, but to do the most damage possible.

But it is the case as I see it. I have a friend who plays a beastmaster and he holds his own just fine when we group. He even uses his pet from time to time as I pointed out to off-tank for us, which comes in handy.

When did it become so important to do as much damage as possible? As long as you win the fight that's what matters. Who cares if another job can do more damage. If you're having fun while winning that is by far more important.

[Mitruya]

But it is the case as I see it. I have a friend who plays a beastmaster and he holds his own just fine when we group. He even uses his pet from time to time as I pointed out to off-tank for us, which comes in handy.

When did it become so important to do as much damage as possible? As long as you win the fight that's what matters. Who cares if another job can do more damage. If you're having fun while winning that is by far more important.

Because very few people have friends who will let them come to endgame on a pet job.
Any job can solo nowadays; SE needs to quit holding back on pet job changes out of some irrational fear of them becoming OP.

[Dale]

Because very few people have friends who will let them come to endgame on a pet job.
Any job can solo nowadays; SE needs to quit holding back on pet job changes out of some irrational fear of them becoming OP.

I understand your point - but the benefits of having a pet are not only useful when solo. As I explained earlier, those pets make good off-tanks and that can assist a group as well. I've had a losing battlefield saved due to a beastmaster pet.

Besides: why is there this belief that doing more damage makes someone OP anyway. Why? Some players like to stand out and do the more damage than others. So I see no reason why a job like that can't be available. People are exaggerating the importance of doing more damage in my opinion. It's not that big of a deal and I've yet to see a Samurai I would consider over-powered.

Your initial point is well-taken but that's not SE's fault and they can't fix a stubborn and misguided player mentality. The truth is you do not need maximum damage to do the content on this game. So SE has already done their part to combat this problem by virtue of the game's design. Players should instead shun these players who are so picky about who they play with and obsess over minor details on a video game. Because they are the real issue here. It's not that Samurais can do more damage than a Beastmaster.

[Afania]

You don't know what activities I do on the game Afania. So can you please not make a comment about that issue? And I certainly don't only do endgame on DD paladin. Though DD paladins are capable of doing endgame activities if they want to. Sorry if I sound offensive, but I'm just stating a fact.

We've already gone over this, but the only thing keeping other DD jobs from party spots are players like you who treat video games like a business rather the entertainment it's suppose to be. Because I do endgame content all the time without samurais in the group.

People bring stuns for the obvious reason - to stun things. I suppose you can argue they bring them to make things faster in the sense people aren't dying or needing the extra heals/support as a result. But I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said.

Not everything is about math and doing the most damage. There are other elements of the game at play. Such as enmity/defense and simply staying alive. You act as if Samurais can just waltz up to anything on this game and unload its full damage potential without having to worry about staying alive as a result. But that hasn't been my experience and they just aren't this god class you make them out to be. But who knows, maybe I just haven't met the right one. Because again: in my experience a reckless Samurai requires a lot of support to keep alive and if it isn't played smartly all that damage you speak of can quickly become a burden on the group rather than an asset.

That was the point I was trying to make in regards to enmity.

Again you're focusing on the wrong side of argument, I'm not sure why's indiviual's POV toward playing FFXI is even relevant in this discussion....it doesn't matter if the player treat the game like a business or entertainment, the bloody fact is that SAM does a hell lot more dmg than other DD, AND other jobs DD with a SAM LOWERs pt output. This is just flawed from game design POV.

Again, this is a game design discussion. It seems that you feel that as long as you're having fun, it doesn't matter if the game mechanic is flawed. If you feel that way, then you shouldn't even comment. Because this issue isn't affecting you, but it's affecting everyone else. If I'm the only one experiencing this issue, we won't even see 20 pages of argument in another thread regarding job balance.

Emnity/defense isn't relevant in this discussion at all, personal play style isn't relevant in this discussion as well. This discussion is about math and game design, if you don't want to talk about math and game design, then you're focusing on the wrong side of the argument. Your personal experience and how you do event is completely irrelevant here.

Again, if all the argument you want to make is "SAM is just fine because I do endgame content without SAM just fine, and SAM dies when you use them anyways", then you're focusing on the wrong side of the argument.

[Mitruya]

I understand your point - but the benefits of having a pet are not only useful when solo. As I explained earlier, those pets make good off-tanks and that can assist a group as well. I've had a losing battlefield saved due to a beastmaster pet.

Besides: why is there this belief that doing more damage makes someone OP anyway. Why? Some players like to stand out and do the more damage than others. So I see no reason why a job like that can't be available. People are exaggerating the importance of doing more damage in my opinion. It's not that big of a deal and I've yet to see a Samurai I would consider over-powered.

Your initial point is well-taken but that's not SE's fault and they can't fix a stubborn and misguided player mentality. The truth is you do not need maximum damage to do the content on this game. So SE has already done their part to combat this problem by virtue of the game's design. Players should instead shun these players who are so picky about who they play with and obsess over minor details on a video game. Because they are the real issue here. It's not that Samurais can do more damage than a Beastmaster.

I agree that player mentality has a lot to do with it.
I disagree that SE is faultless in the way the jobs are designed. There have been reports on this forum and others of non-traditional jobs taking on content and they really struggle, now matter how good and well-geared they are.

[Afania]

I agree that player mentality has a lot to do with it.
I disagree that SE is faultless in the way the jobs are designed. There have been reports on this forum and others of non-traditional jobs taking on content and they really struggle, now matter how good and well-geared they are.

Let me put it this way, if a job doesn't get invite because it's 10% behind SAM, I agree that it's "player mentality" issue. It's extremely hard to balance each job to do exactly the same dmg, 10% behind another job is acceptable.

If a job LOWERs party output when it tries to engage and DD with another SAM, then something is seriously wrong with the design.....that means 1 person can do the work of 2 ppl, the gap is extremely huge in this case.

IMO, it's not a good idea to just pretend everything is "player mentality" issue and walk away, that's not solving the problem.

That's why I had to call Dale out, cuz apparently he's shifting focus......if we pointed out something wrong with the game design, he'd just said "But I do event without this job all the time just fine, it's your own problem if you want to play the game like that!", how is that even doing anything to the discussion?

The point is that there's something wrong with the job balance when it comes to SAM and SC, we just pointed that out, and we continue to make threads about it, then Dale just pops on the forum blaming the player about this. Unfortunately, unless the entire server's full of Dale who doesn't invite SAM to events, it will continue to be a job balance issue that we can't ignore.

[Mitruya]

I agree. It's not just a player issue. SE does hold responsibility for job design, and the battle content that certain jobs just can't handle.

[Camiie]

But it is the case as I see it. I have a friend who plays a beastmaster and he holds his own just fine when we group. He even uses his pet from time to time as I pointed out to off-tank for us, which comes in handy.

Your anecdote is not the reality that the rest of us face. Your friends are not the norm. Just because things are fine for your friend that does not mean things are fine. The rest of have to play in a far more competitive and results driven environment than you do. I don't mean that to be insulting, I'm just pointing out the stark reality the rest of us face.

When did it become so important to do as much damage as possible?

When the DPS/DD class was invented.

As long as you win the fight that's what matters. Who cares if another job can do more damage. If you're having fun while winning that is by far more important.

Unfortunately you're in the vast minority with that line of thinking. But honestly what would be so bad if it were both? What if I could have fun playing the job of my choice AND do the same amount of damage as another job? Why does it have to be either or? That's my question. Why can't a BST and her pet be just as strong as a WAR or SAM or MNK? What would be the harm in that?

[Mitruya]

Unfortunately you're in the vast minority with that line of thinking. But honestly what would be so bad if it were both? What if I could have fun playing the job of my choice AND do the same amount of damage as another job? Why does it have to be either or? That's my question. Why can't a BST and her pet be just as strong as a WAR or SAM or MNK? What would be the harm in that?

I wanted to hit the like button repeatedly for this paragraph.

[Ulth]

Because very few people have friends who will let them come to endgame on a pet job.
Any job can solo nowadays; SE needs to quit holding back on pet job changes out of some irrational fear of them becoming OP.

It's not really an irrational fear. Pet jobs at one point were pretty op. I'm pretty sure the incremental pet job updates is because they don't want to get back to the point where a single pet job could solo any endgame content. It's not like they are making no effort on improving pet jobs.

Unfortunately you're in the vast minority with that line of thinking. But honestly what would be so bad if it were both? What if I could have fun playing the job of my choice AND do the same amount of damage as another job? Why does it have to be either or? That's my question. Why can't a BST and her pet be just as strong as a WAR or SAM or MNK? What would be the harm in that?

I guess that depends on if you want to be as strong as just a WAR, SAM, or MNK. Or be as strong as them when they have an entire back line supporting them.