[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[Mitruya]

I understand your point - but the benefits of having a pet are not only useful when solo. As I explained earlier, those pets make good off-tanks and that can assist a group as well. I've had a losing battlefield saved due to a beastmaster pet.

Besides: why is there this belief that doing more damage makes someone OP anyway. Why? Some players like to stand out and do the more damage than others. So I see no reason why a job like that can't be available. People are exaggerating the importance of doing more damage in my opinion. It's not that big of a deal and I've yet to see a Samurai I would consider over-powered.

Your initial point is well-taken but that's not SE's fault and they can't fix a stubborn and misguided player mentality. The truth is you do not need maximum damage to do the content on this game. So SE has already done their part to combat this problem by virtue of the game's design. Players should instead shun these players who are so picky about who they play with and obsess over minor details on a video game. Because they are the real issue here. It's not that Samurais can do more damage than a Beastmaster.

I agree that player mentality has a lot to do with it.
I disagree that SE is faultless in the way the jobs are designed. There have been reports on this forum and others of non-traditional jobs taking on content and they really struggle, now matter how good and well-geared they are.

[Afania]

I agree that player mentality has a lot to do with it.
I disagree that SE is faultless in the way the jobs are designed. There have been reports on this forum and others of non-traditional jobs taking on content and they really struggle, now matter how good and well-geared they are.

Let me put it this way, if a job doesn't get invite because it's 10% behind SAM, I agree that it's "player mentality" issue. It's extremely hard to balance each job to do exactly the same dmg, 10% behind another job is acceptable.

If a job LOWERs party output when it tries to engage and DD with another SAM, then something is seriously wrong with the design.....that means 1 person can do the work of 2 ppl, the gap is extremely huge in this case.

IMO, it's not a good idea to just pretend everything is "player mentality" issue and walk away, that's not solving the problem.

That's why I had to call Dale out, cuz apparently he's shifting focus......if we pointed out something wrong with the game design, he'd just said "But I do event without this job all the time just fine, it's your own problem if you want to play the game like that!", how is that even doing anything to the discussion?

The point is that there's something wrong with the job balance when it comes to SAM and SC, we just pointed that out, and we continue to make threads about it, then Dale just pops on the forum blaming the player about this. Unfortunately, unless the entire server's full of Dale who doesn't invite SAM to events, it will continue to be a job balance issue that we can't ignore.

[Dale]

Let me put it this way, if a job doesn't get invite because it's 10% behind SAM, I agree that it's "player mentality" issue. It's extremely hard to balance each job to do exactly the same dmg, 10% behind another job is acceptable.

If a job LOWERs party output when it tries to engage and DD with another SAM, then something is seriously wrong with the design.....that means 1 person can do the work of 2 ppl, the gap is extremely huge in this case.

IMO, it's not a good idea to just pretend everything is "player mentality" issue and walk away, that's not solving the problem.

That's why I had to call Dale out, cuz apparently he's shifting focus......if we pointed out something wrong with the game design, he'd just said "But I do event without this job all the time just fine, it's your own problem if you want to play the game like that!", how is that even doing anything to the discussion?

The point is that there's something wrong with the job balance when it comes to SAM and SC, we just pointed that out, and we continue to make threads about it, then Dale just pops on the forum blaming the player about this. Unfortunately, unless the entire server's full of Dale who doesn't invite SAM to events, it will continue to be a job balance issue that we can't ignore.

You can call me out if you wish. But I remain convinced that is a player mentality issue to blame for people feeling as if they don't contribute to a group rather than some grave imbalance.

I routinely beat endgame content with jobs like dragoons and beastmasters on this game. If there was really such a huge flaw in this game's design that makes these jobs not even worth a spot in a group, then that would not be possible.. And I know you don't like when I use that argument - but it's the truth as I see it. So that's why I keep using it.

I never meant to imply I didn't invite Samurais to events either. I can however do endgame content without them. You do not need samurais. You can be successful with or without them. That was my point.

Arguing for change is one thing. But believing your job is just so awful it doesn't even contribute and doesn't deserve an invite is another. That is what I blame the player mentality for - causing people to feel that way about their jobs. And that is why I felt the need to just pop in.

Also: I should point out I gave my reasons as to why I didn't think a Samurai was over-powered. None of them reasons had to do with the player mentality. So I don't think you are being fair to me by when you say I just pretend everything is "player mentality" issue and walk away. That's not what I did.

[Afania]

I routinely beat endgame content with jobs like dragoons and beastmasters on this game. If there was really such a huge flaw in this game's design that makes these jobs not even worth a spot in a group, then that would not be possible.. And I know you don't like when I use that argument - but it's the truth as I see it. So that's why I keep using it.

I never meant to imply I didn't invite Samurais to events either. I can however do endgame content without them. You do not need samurais. You can be successful with or without them. That was my point.

I'm not sure why do you bring up "player mentality" over and over again, this isn't even the point.

If you can beat a content with BST, that means it'd be "too easy" for SAM. Then there's a game difficulty design issue, because the difficulty should be equal, instead of certain setup gets "just right" difficulty and certain setup gets "too easy" difficulty.

Again, just because X job can beat the content, doesn't mean there are no flaws in game design.

Arguing for change is one thing. But believing your job is just so awful it doesn't even contribute and doesn't deserve an invite is another.

It's not that the community are "believing" the job is so awful in this case, it's math. It's not an opinion, it's fact. There isn't anything you can do if X job just do 2~3 times more dmg than another job.

Whether other jobs deserve an invite is depend on individual, but you can't change math, numbers and facts. If someone choose not to invite a person/job, there's nothing you can do about it.

Also: I should point out I gave my reasons as to why I didn't think a Samurai was over-powered. None of them reasons had to do with the player mentality. So I don't think you are being fair to me by when you say I just pretend everything is "player mentality" issue and walk away. That's not what I did.

Your reason wasn't legit, when we use SAM as a dmg dealer, obviously we use it in a situation that enmity doesn't matter, I'm not sure why'd you bring up enmity cap in this discussion.

[Dale]

I'm not sure why do you bring up "player mentality" over and over again, this isn't even the point.

If you can beat a content with BST, that means it'd be "too easy" for SAM. Then there's a game difficulty design issue, because the difficulty should be equal, instead of certain setup gets "just right" difficulty and certain setup gets "too easy" difficulty.

Again, just because X job can beat the content, doesn't mean there are no flaws in game design..

Not sure why you are confused as to why I brought it up because I pointed out why. I bring it up when I see people believing certain jobs do not contribute in a group or aren't worthy of a party spot. That is what I blame the player mentality for - perpetuating that false narrative and I will continue to challenge it when I see it. I also disagree with you that just because something can be beaten by a Beastmaster than means it would be too easy with a samurai.

It's not that the community are "believing" the job is so awful in this case, it's math. It's not an opinion, it's fact. There isn't anything you can do if X job just do 2~3 times more dmg than another job.

Whether other jobs deserve an invite is depend on individual, but you can't change math, numbers and facts. If someone choose not to invite a person/job, there's nothing you can do about it. ..

We've already gone over this so there is no need to repeat it. We just disagree. Because it's not math that is responsible for certain jobs not getting invites on this game. It's because of, yes - player mentalities like yourself

Your reason wasn't legit, when we use SAM as a dmg dealer, obviously we use it in a situation that enmity doesn't matter, I'm not sure why'd you bring up enmity cap in this discussion.

It wasn't legit according to you maybe. But I found it perfectly legit. You have to take into account enmity and the job's ability to withstand damage before you can call a job over-powered. I know you want to just base everything around damage and ignore everything else. But I'm not like that.

[Afania]

We've already gone over this so there is no need to repeat it. We just disagree. Because it's not math that is responsible for certain jobs not getting invites on this game. It's because of, yes - player mentalities like yourself

Wow I swear this is personal attack. I HAVE invited DD jobs that did less than half of dmg of another SAM in the same pt many, many, many times in my life, stop accusing me for not inviting ppl.

I just have to point out, some ppl weren't happy in the same pt(and it wasn't me, I was perfectly fine with it) and had an unhappy playing experience because of it.....you know, they played the game for entertainment and ended up not having fun cuz someone else did less than half the dmg.

It seems that you just decided that whoever doesn't invite others has some sort of "player mentality" that's bad for the community, when ppl just want to have fun.....but fun is subjective, for many ppl having one person do less than half dmg of another DD is not an enjoyable playing experience.

IMO, in the end you're no different from those who exclude others. You just believe how you enjoy the game is right and everyone else is wrong.

It wasn't legit according to you maybe. But I found it perfectly legit. You have to take into account enmity and the job's ability to withstand damage before you can call a job over-powered. I know you want to just base everything around damage and ignore everything else. But I'm not like that.

It is not legit because we're comparing SAM with other melee jobs that has 0 advantage in enmity/defense aspect, such as DRK and WAR. If you're comparing SAM with PLD or RNG, then PLD and RNG can stand out in enmity/defensive playstyle aspect. But that's not the case with SAM v.s another melee....SAM does not take more dmg than other melee, and it deals more dmg, therefore defense/enmity is completely irrelevant in this discussion.

They were done away with because people were ostracizing all of the support-style classes because they didn't do as much damage. Very similar to what is going on here. Because jobs that don't do as much damage as others usually have other elements to them - which is why SE designed them to do less damage in the first place.

Except certain jobs in this game doesn't do as much dmg AND it doesn't have any special element that makes them stand out.

[Dale]

Wow I swear this is personal attack. I HAVE invited DD jobs that did less than half of dmg of another SAM in the same pt many, many, many times in my life, stop accusing me for not inviting ppl.

I just have to point out, some ppl weren't happy in the same pt(and it wasn't me, I was perfectly fine with it) and had an unhappy playing experience because of it.

It seems that you just decided that whoever doesn't invite others has some sort of "player mentality" that's bad for the community, when ppl just want to have fun.....and fun is subjective, for many ppl having one person do less than half dmg of another DD is not an enjoyable playing experience.

IMO, in the end you're no different from those who exclude others. You just believe what you think is right and everyone else is wrong.

I am just going by what you have told me

Earlier you said you would kick me out of your group if I chose to use a sword and shield rather a Great Sword because I wouldn't compare as well to a Samurai in terms of damage. You also continuously try to defend people excluding other jobs just because they do less damage by pointing to math and saying that somehow justifies it.

So if you want me to have a different impression of you, I would suggest not saying things like this. ^^

It is not legit because we're comparing SAM with other melee jobs that has 0 advantage in enmity/defense aspect, such as DRK and WAR. If you're comparing SAM with PLD or RNG, then PLD and RNG can stand out in enmity/defensive playstyle aspect. But that's not the case with SAM v.s another melee....SAM does not take more dmg than other melee, and it deals more dmg, therefore defense/enmity is completely irrelevant in this discussion.
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That post I made about Samurais and enmity wasn't aimed at you or in reference to any comparisons you were trying to make. I was explaining why I didn't see Samurais as being over-powered and explained why to another poster.

Scroll up and you will notice the post I made about Samurai was not directed at you or any of the arguments you were trying to make. So of course it's not going to be in the same context as your post. It was never meant to be.