[Dev1235] Job Adjustments

[Byrth]

The job adjustments had no impact on whether or not Dancer is used, and here is why:

Every time you use a JA, you incur a forced delay (minimum of 1 second, in practice about ~1.3 seconds on average). I adjusted Motenten's sheet to model the changes to Ternary/Striking flourish and assign their JA delay to that TP/WS cycle, as well as added JA delay for other things like Steps.

Assumptions:
* 80 delay (~1.3 seconds) per JA. -- This is a favorable assumption because it assumes every JA is followed by a WS. It represents the maximum possible efficiency given server-client transfer times and very probably underestimates the real JA delay.
* A 3 minute fight, which is essentially the most favorable possible assumption for Steps.
* The modeled player was responsible for applying the Steps.
* Berserk, Haste Samba, etc. were all applied at the beginning of the fight, and that Haste Samba would have to be applied twice.
* I used Pyrrhic Kleos and Climactic-Rudra's as my two test cases. I didn't use Evisceration because I originally set out to test Tier 3 flourishes and they're all fairly worthless with Evisc.
* No build-up time for step potency. It was assumed to be instantly 100% potent, so 10 steps would be -23% Defense from the first second of the fight.
* My own gear.
* One BRD for buffs.
* No skillchains
* Reverse Flourish is an instant 1000 TP for WS.
* Steps are 100% Accurate

Some conclusions:
1) Climactic is the only Flourish worth using before a WS. Ternary, Striking, and Building are each a net DPS loss in most situations simply due to their activation times (not counting the time it takes to get steps).

2) In a buffed situation, Feather Step starts having a negative impact on the DNC's DPS almost immediately. I found that level 1 was a net DPS gain for the DNC, but after that it went downhill. Might have been different if I modeled Evisceration.

3) Box Step is worthwhile until you cap Ratio.

4) With capped magic Haste, using a 5% DW Toetapper Mantle and not using Haste Samba was essentially equivalent to using Haste Samba (-1% DPS) and I'm not even sure that's the most efficient tradeoff. Considering Haste Samba doesn't help SAMs, DRKs (in a 3 min fight), DW jobs, or H2H jobs, this would be a way to simplify your playstyle.

5) Saber Dance is only a net +3% DPS. Given that you don't really need Haste Samba (#4), there will be times when Fan Dance is a more reasonable option.

6) Reverse Flourish is definitely worth using if you don't attribute any of the delay from FM generation to it (80 delay). If you attribute two JAs worth of delay (160) to it, it's still minorly worth using. Three JAs (240 delay) make it not worth using anymore, so you basically should never use useless steps to build FMs for Reverse Flourish, because you'll always need at least 3 JAs (Presto + Feather Step + Reverse Flourish or Step + Step + Reverse Flourish) to get a full WS worth of TP back even with Terpsichore.

Disclaimer: It is possible to precharge Presto, Striking Flourish, etc. when moving between mobs so the JA delay is effectively negated, which I do. I was looking to evaluate the changes from this update together, though, so a 3 minute fight is really the best place to do it.




Does this make the problems with Dancer a little more clear? In the ideal group-event case outlined above, you use Box Step-> WS until you cap it and mix in two Box Step -> Climactic Flourish -> Rudra's Storms combos and as many Reverse Flourish -> WSs as you can while you have free FMs. You use Feather Step at most once. You probably don't use Haste Samba or Saber Dance unless your WHM is on top of their stuff or you're doing an event with a WAR or DRG. After you max out Box Step, you just sit there spamming WSs and not using any of your Dancer specific JAs.

[Martel]

So I clicked on this thread, solely because I saw that Bryth had posted. Went to first unread post to update my context, then slogged through 10 pages of text that had absolutely nothing to do with the thread topic. -.-;

Well, it was worth it in the end. Interesting and informative post Byrth. Thanks.

If you don't mind a slight derail, how would you go about evaluating the value swipe and lunge for RUN DPS? Swipe requires 2 jas to be used, although you can stack them. And Lunge requires 4(for a 3 rune lunge) but you can only stack 2 of them. It can be argued that you'd use the runes anyway, but to go with that, you'd have to only lunge when they were about to wear anyway. So, looking at 3 min lunge recast vs 5 min rune duration.

Thoughts?

[Dale]

It depend on the game, in the case of FFXI raid/endgame, I'd say yes, it's more like a business. That's mainly because the world of FFXI is quite close to how rl works. For gods sake, ppl sell win in this game, so that is related to making profit and how is making profit not business?

Also FYI, I appreciate friend's help, if they actually help. If they're not contributing anything, then it's not real help. So how is it possible to appreciate it if I got 0 help? Do you expect someone join a yorcia pt, got a split of gil(so everyone gets less $$ per run), while doing almost nothing in entire run? That's not how the world works. No one(not just Afania) is going to appreciate helps like this.

I also have to point out, in FFXI endgame events, if you bring more than 6 person the difficulty gets higher. So you simply can't just bring anyone.

It seems that you're eager to define how the world should work using your own POV, while I just stated how the world works using objective POV by stating facts and analyze it.

Yes, I know you appreciate a "friend's help". We have established that, at least in the limited confines of how you define these words. What you don't appreciate however is the assistance of others in raid/grinds because you view it as punishing you unless they assist you as efficiently as possible because video games are like a business to you. Or something like that.

But long as they assist you efficiently enough to where you beat the raid you ought to appreciate it. Who cares if it wasn't as efficient as possible and might have took a couple more minutes. Big deal. That's no reason to view them as punishing you.

You are also exaggerating. Just because I am saying you should appreciate someone assisting you rather they are playing as efficiently as possible or not doesn't mean I am saying you should just bring anyone.

There is a huge difference in appreciating the assistance of someone who might be doing 10% less damage than another DPS job and then bringing a level 30 job wearing a bikini.

And I am giving you my point of view. If you want to take that as me being eager to define how the world works so be it. But it's funny it's ok for you to have your point of view yet when I have mine I'm somewhere trying to control the world. Because it is my point of view that it's stupid to get annoyed at someone else just because they may play a video game differently than you think they should.

[Dale]

<Small voice>

I've got Defender job points level 6, and 5/5 defender merits lol. I like my War having the option to go defensive for survival, and I guess that includes shields. But obviously no War is going to a serious zerg event with Defender up and a shield equipped. Its just a useful situational boost and option.

I was never debating about the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of wearing a shield in different situations though. I made that as crystal clear as any human being can.

My point was not to get annoyed at a warrior just because they are wearing a shield. And it is truly amazing to me how such a simple un-offensive opinion as that can spark such a firestorm. And boy does it prove what I have been saying in some of my other posts regarding the intolerance and demanding nature of today's gaming community. Because apparently its not enough not to play with them, but everyone must be annoyed at them as well. What's next? A lynching? Jezzus.

It's so insane it would be comical if not the fact it deters a lot of really cool people from playing these types of games.

[Afania]

Yes, I know you appreciate a "friend's help". We have established that, at least in the limited confines of how you define these words. What you don't appreciate however is the assistance of others in raid/grinds because you view it as punishing you unless they assist you as efficiently as possible because video games are like a business to you. Or something like that.

But long as they assist you efficiently enough to where you beat the raid you ought to appreciate it. Who cares if it wasn't as efficient as possible and might have took a couple more minutes. Big deal. That's no reason to view them as punishing you.

You are also exaggerating. Just because I am saying you should appreciate someone assisting you rather they are playing as efficiently as possible or not doesn't mean I am saying you should just bring anyone.

There is a huge difference in appreciating the assistance of someone who might be doing 10% less damage than another DPS job and then bringing a level 30 job wearing a bikini.

And I am giving you my point of view. If you want to take that as me being eager to define how the world works so be it. But it's funny it's ok for you to have your point of view yet when I have mine I'm somewhere trying to control the world. Because it is my point of view that it's stupid to get annoyed at someone else just because they may play a video game differently than you think they should.

You don't get it, it isn't someone not playing efficiently that's punishing the pt(it's directed toward the pt, not just me), it's the game mechanic for certain playstyle that's punishing the pt.

Also, you'd be fooling yourself if you think a shield WAR is only 10% behind another DPS job. I really don't mind a DD doing 10% less dmg, but doing more than 50% less dmg is another story.

I was never debating about the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of wearing a shield in different situations though. I made that as crystal clear as any human being can.

My point was not to get annoyed at a warrior just because they are wearing a shield. And it is truly amazing to me how such a simple un-offensive opinion as that can spark such a firestorm. And boy does it prove what I have been saying in some of my other posts regarding the intolerance and demanding nature of today's gaming community. Because apparently its not enough not to play with them, but everyone must be annoyed at them as well. What's next? A lynching? Jezzus.

It's so insane it would be comical if not the fact it deters a lot of really cool people from playing these types of games.

Do you really need to state your opinion toward "feel annoyed" over and over and OVER again? You don't feel annoyed, we got it. Someone else still feel annoyed, that's his right to and there's nothing you can do about it even if you post 100 pages. Even if you don't agree with him, you don't need to post 10 pages of posts to state your opinion repeatly......everyone already got what you want to say here. It's really pointless to tell everyone "don't get annoyed toward a shield WAR" over and over and over again, your opinion isn't going to change other ppl's emotion, deal with it.

And I am giving you my point of view. If you want to take that as me being eager to define how the world works so be it.

You gave me a feeling that you're trying to change other's opinion, that's why you repeatedly stated your opinion when we already got what you said.

[Afania]

Hey Stompa, I hate to ask about this here where it's totally off-topic and random, but since this site doesn't seem to have a PM function (unless I missed it) I was wondering what the community on your server was like? I've been playing quite a bit on Asura but I haven't really noticed many social/family-style linkshells around during my time there. I was looking for something more laid back and more accepting of all jobs, rather than just a handful of them (Ha, that's "kind of" on topic.) I figure that kind of thing might be easier to find on a somewhat smaller server?

Anyway, I was just curious of your opinions on the server, generally.

If you're looking for a social LS, why don't you use FFXIAH forum? It has a PM function and you can just post a thread on the server forum if you're looking for a LS like this.

I used to have a LS like that on Rag, but it broke after FFXIV release, idk many social LS anymore.

[Dale]

You don't get it, it isn't someone not playing efficiently that's punishing the pt(it's directed toward the pt, not just me), it's the game mechanic for certain playstyle that's punishing the pt..

No it's you who just don't get it. If you are winning then it's not punishment. It doesn't matter if you could have won faster with someone else or not. You still aren't being punished by them... they are actually assisting you to win.

Please don't confuse the game mechanics with your over-broad and preposterous interpretation of what punishment is.

Also, you'd be fooling yourself if you think a shield WAR is only 10% behind another DPS job. I really don't mind a DD doing 10% less dmg, but doing more than 50% less dmg is another story...

I was never talking about a warrior using a shield in that post. Which is why I didn't mention it.

I have no idea what they parse at when compared to others. Nor do I really care. But it's nice to know you are now back peddling and saying you don't really mind for someone to do 10% less damage. How charitable of you

Do you really need to state your opinion toward "feel annoyed" over and over and OVER again? You don't feel annoyed, we got it. Someone else still feel annoyed, that's his right to and there's nothing you can do about it even if you post 100 pages. Even if you don't agree with him, you don't need to post 10 pages of posts to state your opinion repeatly......everyone already got what you want to say here. It's really pointless to tell everyone "don't get annoyed toward a shield WAR" over and over and over again, your opinion isn't going to change other ppl's emotion, deal with it.

You could have ended this debate at any time by doing the exact same thing you are telling me to do. So why don't you take your own advice and just accept I have my opinion as well and leave it at that. Because you aren't going to change my point of view either, deal with it.

You gave me a feeling that you're trying to change other's opinion, that's why you repeatedly stated your opinion when we already got what you said.

And you are repeatedly stating your opinion as well when I got what you said. So not sure what your point is, other than to suggest you are trying to change other's opinions also. In other words: you may want to stop lecturing me for doing the exact same thing you are doing.

[Seillan]

I don't really know about other servers, I've only been on REM and LEV.

I'm on a social fun friends LS with around 25 people, if you are on LEV sometime I will pearl you. We do events but are not hardcore, just like to play the game and try our best lol. ^^

I'm still in the debating phase for now (if I move, I'll be paying for transfers for myself and a friend so I figured I should think on it for a bit) but I may have to take you up on that offer if I end up taking the plunge . I'm used to smaller servers (and smaller guilds particularly) so I've always had a soft spot for that kind of atmosphere. Thanks for the reply!

If you're looking for a social LS, why don't you use FFXIAH forum? It has a PM function and you can just post a thread on the server forum if you're looking for a LS like this.

I used to have a LS like that on Rag, but it broke after FFXIV release, idk many social LS anymore.

Ah, I wasn't aware of how popular that forum was. I mainly only lurk around here for the most part, but I'll check it out. Thanks .

[Catmato]

And you are repeatedly stating your opinion

You're both doing it. Shut up already.

[Afania]

I have no idea what they parse at when compared to others. Nor do I really care. But it's nice to know you are now back peddling and saying you don't really mind for someone to do 10% less damage. How charitable of you

You could have ended this debate at any time by doing the exact same thing you are telling me to do. So why don't you take your own advice and just accept I have my opinion as well and leave it at that. Because you aren't going to change my point of view either, deal with it.

And you are repeatedly stating your opinion as well when I got what you said. So not sure what your point is, other than to suggest you are trying to change other's opinions also. In other words: you may want to stop lecturing me for doing the exact same thing you are doing.

The reason why I kept replying your post because you kept twisting the meaning of my post into something else. I've never_ever say anything about I want max(do you even know what this word means?) efficiency, I only said I don't agree with purposely choosing a playstyle that's obviously ineffective(like a shield WAR) in endgame event. I even said I played BLU in yorcia several times....which is obviously not the most efficient job. But not using the most efficient job is not the same as using an ineffective playstyle. The bolded part clearly pointed out the fact that you completely misunderstood what I meant.

I don't NEED max efficiency, that doesn't mean I can accept a pt member CHOOSING to do 50% of dmg purposely when you have the potential to do a lot more. That is not the same.

I'm not trying to "convince" you to think otherwise nor change your opinion, but if you want to twist my motivation into something else, of course I'd have to defend for myself.

Tbh, if I only ever want max efficiency, I wouldn't even reply 10 pages of posts here talking about the job warrior, I'd just write 1 sentence and gtfo: You're doing wrong if you invite a WAR to endgame.