Useless spells

[Dale]

I haven't even mentioned the lowered resistance effect because of two reasons. Firstly and most important the relationships between resistances were not well thought out at all; EX Enthunder II lowers resistance to earth, thunder is strong against water, which generally has no special resistance to earth, so you aren't aiming at the enemy's weakness to improve the damage of your enspell. Now this would be acceptable if the element were at least neutral, but earth is generally resistant to thunder so in order to reduce the resistance of an earth based mob you are forced to use an element that is weak against the target you are attacking, severely reducing the damage from the enspell. Again, you could argue that you aren't helping yourself with the spell, you are helping other members of your party, but to have such an obvious defect just goes to show how far out of the way SE was going to really screw RDM with these spells. The second reason is that any mob you would actually need the resistance effect for is going to be incredibly strong anyway and both difficult for a RDM to hit in melee and dangerous to be near anyway.

As for the other spells I really haven't had to use any of them so far, I eat sushi and my accuracy is fine against the mobs I fight with double march from Ulmia so I haven't needed Distract. I merited my enfeebling magic skill so my magic accuracy is good even in melee gear so I haven't had to use frazzle. I understand that these spells are much more useful in a real party, but that won't happen till 99 so they aren't really something to look forward to yet. Does Gravity 2 even have a use anymore? They removed the evasion down effect from it and I've heard that most things are immune to gravity now anyway.

I'm still not following your logic. Enfeebles are meant for difficult monsters. That is the whole point as to why you would need to enfeeble them to begin with. And take it from me, distract II does indeed help when I am fighting very tough monsters in the gates and need to land my melee attacks. The fact you use a support trust eat sushi and fight easier monsters you can hit more easily doesn't make these spells useless or mean SE has somehow screwed us.

And helping members of your party helps you as well. It's a team effort. And you could party before you are level 99. That's just a choice you make.

Gravity is good for when you need to slow the enemy down to escape or kite. Many NMs are immune to it, but it still works on many things.

And you can't talk about En Spells 2 without mentioning the lower resistance function. That is part what the spell does. And losing a little bit of damage on your melee swings is worth it if it helps you land important spells you are having trouble sticking.

I would suggest going out and fighting more difficult monsters. With trusts it is possible to chain Very/Incredibly Toughs and it might give you more of an appreciation of what the Red Mage has to offer. Because it is a powerful support class and can turn a losing party into a winning party.

[Zekander]

You missed the post where I said I was fighting VT/IT mobs. And you missed where I said I was using Ulmia for double march, no extra accuracy there. And you missed right there where I said I know distract and frazzle are useful for party situations. And I think I gave a reasonable argument as to why the resistance function is not worthwhile. And since I can easily defeat IT mobs, what exactly am I running from with Gravity?

Not trying to be mean but you seem to be overlooking my salient points.

[Dale]

You missed the post where I said I was fighting VT/IT mobs. And you missed where I said I was using Ulmia for double march, no extra accuracy there. And you missed right there where I said I know distract and frazzle are useful for party situations. And I think I gave a reasonable argument as to why the resistance function is not worthwhile. And since I can easily defeat IT mobs, what exactly am I running from with Gravity?

Not trying to be mean but you seem to be overlooking my salient points.

I re-read the post I quoted and no where did you mention you were fighting IT mobs. In fact it gave the impression you wasn't fighting incredibly strong monsters, since you said the spells you found no use for would only be good against something very difficult. So that is why I assumed that.

Also I never said you were using Ulimia for extra accuracy. I just said you were using a support trust and eating sushi.

I know you said they would be useful for party situations. But I was telling you they are useful when fighting difficult mobs when soloing as well. Once you reach the new areas and fight the higher level monsters their evasion is insane. Even with sushi and a ton of accuracy gear it can still be difficult to hit monsters. Distract II will help. Though even at your level I would still think distract would help you. But if you say it doesn't, fine. I'll accept that. Much of the earlier content has been made easier since my days of doing it. But it will when the fighting the high level monsters in the new areas. That I can attest to personally.

And I never said your argument wasn't reasonable. I just didn't agree with it. Losing a little bit of damage is fair trade off to me if it helps me land my spells.

As far as gravity, I never said you personally was running from anything. I was giving an example of when it could be useful. If you are so awesome you have never had to run from something or kite something then perhaps it is useless to a demi god such as yourself ^^

[Zekander]

Few spells have no use whatsoever, one could argue that tier 2 enspells would be useful to a red mage between levels 50 and 70 that is using a subjob other then war, nin, or dnc, but this is such a narrow use that it renders them effectively useless.

I know it's easy these days to forget that there are levels between 30 and 99, you may notice from my character info that I am currently in the process of leveling RDM. Old school. I'm fighting VT-IT mobs with trust npcs and I'm having fun doing it. The entire point of leveling up is to grow stronger, to get better equipment and better spells. This inevitably makes old equipment and spells obsolete. We pretty much all agree that tier 2 enspells are currently not better in general then tier 1s and it just frustrates me knowing that when I hit 50 and got Tier 2 enspells I was getting a side-grade at best.

I suppose success can be measured in inches.

I'm not arguing about spells I have no use for in soloing, I'm arguing that tier 2 enspells specifically are poorly designed and effectively useless in the majority of situations, I have absolutely no problems with distract/frazzle/flurry etc. When bad things happen I use Sleep, I know some things are immune, but I haven't fought any yet. And yeah you are right the mobs in the adoulin areas are much stronger, which is why I rarely fight them on my other jobs.

[Dale]

I'm not arguing about spells I have no use for in soloing, I'm arguing that tier 2 enspells specifically are poorly designed and effectively useless in the majority of situations, I have absolutely no problems with distract/frazzle/flurry etc. When bad things happen I use Sleep, I know some things are immune, but I haven't fought any yet. And yeah you are right the mobs in the adoulin areas are much stronger, which is why I rarely fight them on my other jobs.

Yes but that was not the post I was responding. If you are expecting me to remember everything you say in your postings prepared to be disappointed

Here is what you said in the actual post I was addressing though: The second reason is that any mob you would actually need the resistance effect for is going to be incredibly strong anyway

This is why I assumed you were not fighting incredible tough monsters. It was not an assumption without cause. And I wasn't saying you never said it. I was just defending myself as to why I assumed you wasn't in that post.

But anyway, if we can agree these spells are useful against the higher level monsters in Adoulin then we are in agreement and debate over. Because that is really all I was trying to get across.

[Demonjustin]

Let me start by saying I'm sorry that this post might be a bit long and from a while back. I took a break from the forums for a short time so I fell behind, that said there are some things I want to reply to so~ I hope you'll forgive me replying to old posts.

Another example: phalanx 2 isn't a pure upgrade from phalanx 1. It just serves a different purpose, allowing us to cast on other party members. So I don't see why a new tier always needs to be a pure upgrade. In fact I think it's better that it just allows a different usage of the spell, that way neither spell becomes useless or obsolete.

Not really. Assuming you have 5/5 Phalanx II both spells cap at -35 damage, the difference being that one can be cast on others while the other is self only. The second tier also scales in a way that makes it much more powerful than the original until you hit 300+ Enhancing Magic, at which point they even out. The upgrade II gets is the ability to cast on other players, the only real flaw with it is the lack of ability to use Accession with it, which isn't an issue since the original's potency is the same as the second. I admit all of this requires 5/5 merits, but that's how powerful the spell should be anyways, as with any merit spell.

Also, considering the vast amount of support utility this class has now, I think our melee damage is fine. So I don't share your opinion that we are weak. Nor do I understand why you feel the tier2 en spells make us weaker. They just provide us with a way to reduce resistances while at the same time adding some damage to our melee attacks. It doesn't weaken the class.

There's a difference between saying that having something weakens a class, and saying that the something the class has is weaker than it should be, or that the something is weaker than another something that isn't able to be stacked with the original. Enspell IIs do make RDM a stronger job than it would be without them. That said, they're weaker than our original Enspells in most situations. If I'm in a situation I need magic accuracy enough to lose my DMG for the sake of my(-10?) elemental resist I'm likely using a staff for the additional magic accuracy anyways and won't hit anything with my Enspell to begin with. It's just not practical to use Enspell IIs in most situations, even single wielding they're almost always worse than the originals due to how the Enhancing Magic calculation works and our ease of stacking Double Attack thanks to Temper.

Changing the IIs to be a real upgrade, a real second tier, wouldn't in any way make us overpowered. It would only serve to make the spells more useful and at the same time make them more sensical. I can't for the life of me understand why Enhancing Magic should be calculated on hit when the originals weren't, I can think of no reason that this is necessary or defensible. That alone feels like more of a glitch than a feature, and yet it's never been addressed.

In either case, the last thing I want to say on this is that I'm a large advocate for RDMs meleeing. We're not exactly weak, but we are left behind by most other front line jobs quite easily. Even in our best possible gear I have a hard time keeping up with your average DDs thanks to our flaws. We have a lack of gear other jobs get in the DD department, often times being left with very random pieces, and last I knew our best set was simply a random mix up of different gear from MPNMs and Delve bosses where we got thrown a bone. When it comes to actual sets or powerful pieces of gear in general for light DDs we're left off completely, which often kills our ability to keep up. One fairly unique way to make us keep up and stand out would be more powerful Enspells that help us match up to other DDs. Two simple changes to Enspell IIs would make them viable and powerful enough to fulfill this role. It wouldn't make RDM overpowered in any sense, would make the elemental resistance reduction more useful as there wouldn't be a cost associated with it that often times doesn't seem worth it, and it would remove one more complaint people have about RDM. Speaking of which...

Sorry guys but you just don't know how to play RDM if Enspell I&II mechanics throw you off like that, same with Gain spells, if you don't know how each stat affects you then you don't know why it is such an advantage to be able to chose a stat to boost at will.

What you should be complaining about instead is how badly RDM spells scale with skill and how low the caps are set on them, also about how the merit spells should be scrolls instead with merits used to either enhance them directly or generally.

But the mechanics of spells are good, you just need to learn2play and to adapt to situations.

There are many issues to complain about, and I admit this isn't one of the larger ones, but it's something that does need brought up. One need not be content with mediocrity simply because there is something even more mediocre to complain about in the same breath. I hate our merits too, but we've talked about that issue so much I don't think there's anything wrong with talking about other issues as well. All of that said, I must ask, how is the mechanic of Enspell IIs calculating our Enhancing Magic on hit rather than on cast "good"? It's a flaw I can't see as being defensible.

[Dale]

Let me start by saying I'm sorry that this post might be a bit long and from a while back. I took a break from the forums for a short time so I fell behind, that said there are some things I want to reply to so~ I hope you'll forgive me replying to old posts.

Not really. Assuming you have 5/5 Phalanx II both spells cap at -35 damage, the difference being that one can be cast on others while the other is self only. The second tier also scales in a way that makes it much more powerful than the original until you hit 300+ Enhancing Magic, at which point they even out. The upgrade II gets is the ability to cast on other players, the only real flaw with it is the lack of ability to use Accession with it, which isn't an issue since the original's potency is the same as the second. I admit all of this requires 5/5 merits, but that's how powerful the spell should be anyways, as with any merit spell.

There's a difference between saying that having something weakens a class, and saying that the something the class has is weaker than it should be, or that the something is weaker than another something that isn't able to be stacked with the original. Enspell IIs do make RDM a stronger job than it would be without them. That said, they're weaker than our original Enspells in most situations. If I'm in a situation I need magic accuracy enough to lose my DMG for the sake of my(-10?) elemental resist I'm likely using a staff for the additional magic accuracy anyways and won't hit anything with my Enspell to begin with. It's just not practical to use Enspell IIs in most situations, even single wielding they're almost always worse than the originals due to how the Enhancing Magic calculation works and our ease of stacking Double Attack thanks to Temper.

Changing the IIs to be a real upgrade, a real second tier, wouldn't in any way make us overpowered. It would only serve to make the spells more useful and at the same time make them more sensical. I can't for the life of me understand why Enhancing Magic should be calculated on hit when the originals weren't, I can think of no reason that this is necessary or defensible. That alone feels like more of a glitch than a feature, and yet it's never been addressed.

In either case, the last thing I want to say on this is that I'm a large advocate for RDMs meleeing. We're not exactly weak, but we are left behind by most other front line jobs quite easily. Even in our best possible gear I have a hard time keeping up with your average DDs thanks to our flaws. We have a lack of gear other jobs get in the DD department, often times being left with very random pieces, and last I knew our best set was simply a random mix up of different gear from MPNMs and Delve bosses where we got thrown a bone. When it comes to actual sets or powerful pieces of gear in general for light DDs we're left off completely, which often kills our ability to keep up. One fairly unique way to make us keep up and stand out would be more powerful Enspells that help us match up to other DDs. Two simple changes to Enspell IIs would make them viable and powerful enough to fulfill this role. It wouldn't make RDM overpowered in any sense, would make the elemental resistance reduction more useful as there wouldn't be a cost associated with it that often times doesn't seem worth it, and it would remove one more complaint people have about RDM. Speaking of which...

There are many issues to complain about, and I admit this isn't one of the larger ones, but it's something that does need brought up. One need not be content with mediocrity simply because there is something even more mediocre to complain about in the same breath. I hate our merits too, but we've talked about that issue so much I don't think there's anything wrong with talking about other issues as well. All of that said, I must ask, how is the mechanic of Enspell IIs calculating our Enhancing Magic on hit rather than on cast "good"? It's a flaw I can't see as being defensible.

I skimmed this and I'll just make a few comments.

Phalanx 2 is not a pure upgrade of phalanx 1. It just isn't. Yes you can merit it to make the spell more effective. And it might scale better at lower enhancing skill. I wouldn't know because mine is capped and was over 300 before I even leveled this job. But none of that changes what I said. It is a second tier spell that offers another way to use the spell rather just being a straight up pure upgrade. It was just an example I was giving to show that the en-spells were not the only spells that behaved that way.

And Red Mage should not be equal in melee to other front line melee jobs. That would be silly and unbalanced if they were. Some of the Red Mages on this forum are expecting too much, and being unreasonable in their requests. And complaining about our en spells 2 and Gain spells and saying as a result SE has somehow screwed this job seems like exaggerated nitpicking to me.

So I think Raydeus is right about this. If this job does have any serious problems, the ones you and the OP are talking about aren't them. And I think you and the OP might want to think about rolling an actual front line melee character if that's the kind of job you want to be. Perhaps a Monk or a Samurai. Because rolling a support class and being discontent you can't do as much damage as a Damage Dealing class doesn't make any sense to me and this is likely not to change. Because SE is never going to give Red Mage some super En Spell that puts us on par with other jobs in terms of melee damage.

[Zekander]

/sigh

I never said RDM should be equal to other frontline jobs. I have MNK leveled to 99, it's ok, I don't think it's as enjoyable to play as RDM though. I've heard that RDM has other problems besides the one I posted, but I haven't encountered those yet in the process of leveling it. I have encountered this one, and it annoys me that such a badly designed spell is in the RDM spell list.

Perhaps I was a bit too strong with my language, I did not mean that SE screwed over the job in general. But you have to agree that with this particular spell they went out of their way to make it less useful then it could have been. They intentionally force you to melee in enhancing magic gear to increase it's damage. They intentionally made the elemental relationships unfavorable. And they intentionally left out off hand and double attacks, this at a time when the cap was still 75 and joyuse was RDMs best weapon.

[Demonjustin]

Phalanx 2 is not a pure upgrade of phalanx 1. It just isn't. Yes you can merit it to make the spell more effective. And it might scale better at lower enhancing skill. I wouldn't know because mine is capped and was over 300 before I even leveled this job. But none of that changes what I said. It is a second tier spell that offers another way to use the spell rather just being a straight up pure upgrade. It was just an example I was giving to show that the en-spells were not the only spells that behaved that way.

But it was a flawed example. As I stated, Phalanx II is the exact same at 5/5 as the original spell except for it's ability to be cast on other players. This is an upgrade for that reason, a pure one, as it has no drawbacks that are forced upon it in return for that benefit. If at 5/5 it only hit -30 while the original spell hit -35 then ok, point taken, it's not a pure upgrade, but this simply isn't the case.

And Red Mage should not be equal in melee to other front line melee jobs. That would be silly and unbalanced if they were. Some of the Red Mages on this forum are expecting too much, and being unreasonable in their requests. And complaining about our en spells 2 and Gain spells and saying as a result SE has somehow screwed this job seems like exaggerated nitpicking to me.

I believe you misunderstood my thoughts on our melee. I in no way shape or form expect nor want RDM's melee to be comparable to a MNK or SAM. I just want to be able to do enough damage so that in equal leveled gear I can perform at, say, 80% of their DMG output. The best possible geared RDM vs the best possible SAM shouldn't result in the RDM being behind by more than 20% in my opinion. What I was trying to point out is that our largest issue when it comes to melee is our gear, we're left out of most light DD gear. One way to supplement this issue would be to make our Enspell IIs more powerful. It would allow us to have a more solidified role on the front lines via our elemental damage per hit and thus make us a bit more unique than your normal DD. This is far from a super Enspell, I'm not talking about giving us Rainemard level Enspells here. I don't think capping at 60 damage a hit on each swing and lowering a mobs resistance without sacrifice is overpowered, how do you come to the conclusion it is?

So I think Raydeus is right about this. If this job does have any serious problems, the ones you and the OP are talking about aren't them. And I think you and the OP might want to think about rolling an actual front line melee character if that's the kind of job you want to be. Perhaps a Monk or a Samurai. Because rolling a support class and being discontent you can't do as much damage as a Damage Dealing class doesn't make any sense to me and this is likely not to change. Because SE is never going to give Red Mage some super En Spell that puts us on par with other jobs in terms of melee damage.

There are many issues. One should not simply ignore the smaller issues simply because they're smaller. In the end all issues need be presented, the larger ones are simply the ones you hit with the hammer repeatedly rather than once and leaving them to rest. Threads that bring up Enspells are far and few between, they only really involve RDM, and that's about the extent of it. Compare that to the number of threads that on a monthly basis are either created or posted in that mention merits. I agree, we have larger issues than this, but that fact alone doesn't mean we should ignore this in favor of those more important issues which are already being discussed.

[Dale]

/sigh

I never said RDM should be equal to other frontline jobs. I have MNK leveled to 99, it's ok, I don't think it's as enjoyable to play as RDM though. I've heard that RDM has other problems besides the one I posted, but I haven't encountered those yet in the process of leveling it. I have encountered this one, and it annoys me that such a badly designed spell is in the RDM spell list.

Perhaps I was a bit too strong with my language, I did not mean that SE screwed over the job in general. But you have to agree that with this particular spell they went out of their way to make it less useful then it could have been. They intentionally force you to melee in enhancing magic gear to increase it's damage. They intentionally made the elemental relationships unfavorable. And they intentionally left out off hand and double attacks, this at a time when the cap was still 75 and joyuse was RDMs best weapon.

That post wasn't directly aimed at you. It was aimed at the other guy. Demonjustin.

And I read his post again and that seemed to be his beef to me. Here is his words again in bold:

We're not exactly weak, but we are left behind by most other front line jobs quite easily. Even in our best possible gear I have a hard time keeping up with your average DDs thanks to our flaws. We have a lack of gear other jobs get in the DD department, often times being left with very random pieces, and last I knew our best set was simply a random mix up of different gear from MPNMs and Delve bosses where we got thrown a bone.

So if he's not complaining about being on par with other front line jobs what is it he's are upset about?

I also think Red Mages have plenty of melee gear available to them. They have Haste 2 and temper (a very potent combination). So I would just get your Red Mage to 99. Buy the spark gear. Get the scimitar and some double attack/accuracy gear before you judge them. Because they melee quite well, even against high level monsters and I think you are going to like it. But if someone wants to do the most melee damage, they should roll something like a Samurai or Monk. Not a support mage class.