Useless spells

[Dale]

But it was a flawed example. As I stated, Phalanx II is the exact same at 5/5 as the original spell except for it's ability to be cast on other players. This is an upgrade for that reason, a pure one, as it has no drawbacks that are forced upon it in return for that benefit. If at 5/5 it only hit -30 while the original spell hit -35 then ok, point taken, it's not a pure upgrade, but this simply isn't the case.
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Really? Some may consider the fact it requires merits a drawback. That's points you could have put elsewhere. And you even pointed out another possible drawback in your previous post when you said it couldn't be used with accession.

So it wasn't a flawed example. At least not to me. But you can think it was flawed if you want. That is your right But I was and still am every comfortable making the comparison.

I use phalanx 1 on my Red Mage all the time. So Phalanx II certainly wasn't a pure upgrade for me at least.

[Demonjustin]

That post wasn't directly aimed at you. It was aimed at the other guy. Demonjustin.

And I read his post again and that seemed to be his beef to me. Here is his words again in bold:

We're not exactly weak, but we are left behind by most other front line jobs quite easily. Even in our best possible gear I have a hard time keeping up with your average DDs thanks to our flaws. We have a lack of gear other jobs get in the DD department, often times being left with very random pieces, and last I knew our best set was simply a random mix up of different gear from MPNMs and Delve bosses where we got thrown a bone.

So if he's not complaining about being on par with other front line jobs what is it he's are upset about?

The size of the gap between them. I've no issue with doing less than a DD, that's balance and it's an obvious necessity. What I do have a problem with is the size of the gap that's had in the name of balance.

I also think Red Mages have plenty of melee gear available to them. They have Haste 2 and temper (a very potent combination). So I would just get your Red Mage to 99. Buy the spark gear. Get the scimitar and some double attack/accuracy gear before you judge them. Because they melee quite well, even against high level monsters and I think you are going to like it. But if someone wants to do the most melee damage, they should roll something like a Samurai or Monk. Not a support mage class.

I'm confident I more than adequately meet the guidelines to speak on the subject. I know this account shows a RDM which lacks even a single job at 99, but that's because it's a second character I made simply to post on this forum.* That said, simply looking at my real character I'm sure you'll realise I'm far from inexperienced when it comes to RDM and how it functions. I've been a strong advocate for RDM's meleeing for the last 3 years or so and have practiced what I preached all the while.

My main issue with RDMs meleeing is the lack of sets of gear for meleeing, it has been for quite some time. We get pieces of gear like the hands from Yorcia WK/DB or the great armor from the Ark Angel and other MPNM fights, but none are part of a set. Sets matter because they're often times built with specific stats for meleeing and since they're centered around that goal are stacked with stats that make them excel at it. RDM on the other hand with the exception of the Sparks gear has been put on no DD set since the release of item levels. We get individual pieces which are great, but they lack many things that hurt our power quite a bit overall. One large example would be the lack of Double/Triple Attack on most of our best gear currently, an issue that isn't suffered by any other front line job thanks to Skirmish and Delve gear sets supplying a high amount of these from Augments and base stats. Just to be clear, I don't believe we should be on every piece of gear nor have access to everything in terms of damage that a MNK or SAM does, but I do think the balance needs adjusted.

RDM is one of few jobs that requires a specific subjob to perform well on the front lines in damage, we need /NIN to do well and that alone hits our damage pretty hard thanks to the Double Attack and Attack/Accuracy sacrifices we're making. Add in the fact we're not able to boost our Attack naturally and have no WSs that provide an Attack boost and you begin to see where we fall short. Adding us to gear sets like those in Delve and Skirmish wouldn't make us powerful enough to overrun MNKs or SAMs, not even close, but it would help close the large gap we currently face by addressing some of our issues in a simple manner. Changing Enspell IIs, to be more on topic with this thread, is another method of changing that gap to be smaller. It's not something that will change RDM's role nor will it in conjunction with additional gear make RDM overpowered, but it's something that would help the job both in support and offense which is a good thing no matter how you look at it.



*

Without going into much detail, I was once banned from the forum and told there was no way to reverse it, as such this was my way to continue voicing my opinion as a paying customer.

All of this said, I would like to apologize Zekander. I don't mean to take this thread down a different path than originally intended, I'm not trying to argue so much about gear specifically, and I sadly fear this may result in the thread drifting from the topic. I am simply bringing it up as I feel it strengthens my point on the actual topic at hand. That said, if you'd rather me leave it be I'll stop posting so that to be sure the thread isn't derailed, as I understand the frustration that can be had from such things.

[Dale]

The size of the gap between them. I've no issue with doing less than a DD, that's balance and it's an obvious necessity. What I do have a problem with is the size of the gap that's had in the name of balance.

I'm confident I more than adequately meet the guidelines to speak on the subject. I know this account shows a RDM which lacks even a single job at 99, but that's because it's a second character I made simply to post on this forum.* That said, simply looking at my real character I'm sure you'll realise I'm far from inexperienced when it comes to RDM and how it functions. I've been a strong advocate for RDM's meleeing for the last 3 years or so and have practiced what I preached all the while.

My main issue with RDMs meleeing is the lack of sets of gear for meleeing, it has been for quite some time. We get pieces of gear like the hands from Yorcia WK/DB or the great armor from the Ark Angel and other MPNM fights, but none are part of a set. Sets matter because they're often times built with specific stats for meleeing and since they're centered around that goal are stacked with stats that make them excel at it. RDM on the other hand with the exception of the Sparks gear has been put on no DD set since the release of item levels. We get individual pieces which are great, but they lack many things that hurt our power quite a bit overall. One large example would be the lack of Double/Triple Attack on most of our best gear currently, an issue that isn't suffered by any other front line job thanks to Skirmish and Delve gear sets supplying a high amount of these from Augments and base stats. Just to be clear, I don't believe we should be on every piece of gear nor have access to everything in terms of damage that a MNK or SAM does, but I do think the balance needs adjusted.

RDM is one of few jobs that requires a specific subjob to perform well on the front lines in damage, we need /NIN to do well and that alone hits our damage pretty hard thanks to the Double Attack and Attack/Accuracy sacrifices we're making. Add in the fact we're not able to boost our Attack naturally and have no WSs that provide an Attack boost and you begin to see where we fall short. Adding us to gear sets like those in Delve and Skirmish wouldn't make us powerful enough to overrun MNKs or SAMs, not even close, but it would help close the large gap we currently face by addressing some of our issues in a simple manner. Changing Enspell IIs, to be more on topic with this thread, is another method of changing that gap to be smaller. It's not something that will change RDM's role nor will it in conjunction with additional gear make RDM overpowered, but it's something that would help the job both in support and offense which is a good thing no matter how you look at it.



*

Without going into much detail, I was once banned from the forum and told there was no way to reverse it, as such this was my way to continue voicing my opinion as a paying customer.

All of this said, I would like to apologize Zekander. I don't mean to take this thread down a different path than originally intended, I'm not trying to argue so much about gear specifically, and I sadly fear this may result in the thread drifting from the topic. I am simply bringing it up as I feel it strengthens my point on the actual topic at hand. That said, if you'd rather me leave it be I'll stop posting so that to be sure the thread isn't derailed, as I understand the frustration that can be had from such things.

That's fine. But as I said, we just disagree because I believe Red Mages (considering they are a support mage class) melee very well. Haste 2 + Temper with some double attack/accuracy gear coupled with a high damage sword (on top of all our other enhancements) is very effective. This job hacks through mobs with ease - and can even chain the Very/Incredibly tough monsters in Adoulin with its melee attack. And that's while wearing the wayfarer set I may add, which isn't even a melee set. So I don't think there is any real issue with this class in terms of melee and don't know what else someone could reasonably want. The developers have been very generous with this job lately and if you think we are weak now you should have played this job years ago when our melee ability actually did suck.

And I never said you didn't meet the guidelines to speak about this. You can talk about what ever you want. I'm not the boss of you. Let me also point out that post you are quoting and taking offense to wasn't directed at you. It was to the other Red Mage.

But the fact you think the Red Mage is so weak in melee does lead me to question your experience with it at the current high levels (but I could be wrong) and you may want to try doing what I asked that other Red Mage to do if you haven't already. You might just be impressed with the results. Because this class knows how to melee trust me. But it's never going to equal an actual melee job. Nor should it in my opinion. Because Red Mages are not suppose to be samurais with healing/enhancing/nuking/enfeebling magic. That would be over-powered.

[Protey]

all this talk about RDM melee ability I thought I would share this from SE for the upcoming update:

Thief
Dagger skill will be raised from A to A+.
Beastmaster
Axe skill will be raised from A to A+.
Ninja
Katana skill will be raised from A to A+.
Blue Mage
Sword skill will be raised from A to A+.
Puppetmaster
Hand-to-hand skill will be raised from B+ to A+.
Dancer
Dagger skill will be raised from B+ to A+.

RDM?? nowhere in sight.

BLU is a hybrid sword wielder like RDM.... why them and not us? I don't know why SE feels the need to buff BLU further, they are OP already.


and back to the original point of this thread: I agree that enspell 2s need to be revamped.

[Dale]

BLU is a hybrid sword wielder like RDM.... why them and not us? I don't know why SE feels the need to buff BLU further, they are OP already.


and back to the original point of this thread: I agree that enspell 2s need to be revamped.

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I'm not that familiar with Blue Mage (tried to level it but lost interest and none of my friends play it regularly) so I'll debate your post in this way:

Can Blue Mage phalanx and refresh II party members with their blue magic? If not, then that might be your answer. If they can, then I think you make a good point.

And I have no beef with people saying Enspell IIs need to be revamped. My issue is when people call them useless. Because they aren't. At least not in my opinion. Because I use them and like them.

All that being said though, I do agree with you that there isn't a need to raise Blue Mage sword skill to an A+. It should stay at A. No Mage should have the highest rank available in a melee weapon in my opinion.

[mattkoko]

I'm not that familiar with Blue Mage (tried to level it but lost interest and none of my friends play it regularly) so I'll debate your post in this way:

Can Blue Mage phalanx and refresh II party members with their blue magic? If not, then that might be your answer. If they can, then I think you make a good point.

And I have no beef with people saying Enspell IIs need to be revamped. My issue is when people call them useless. Because they aren't. At least not in my opinion. Because I use them and like them.

All that being said though, I do agree with you that there isn't a need to raise Blue Mage sword skill to an A+. It should stay at A. No Mage should have the highest rank available in a melee weapon in my opinion.

This is correct. Blu has a lot of good support spells but most (aside from diamondhide) can be uses on other party members. We get refresh and haste but we can only use it on ourselves. We also cannot have all spells set at once, where rdm has access to their entire spell pool. None of our traits are native. They all depend on our spell line up. Bottom line is rdm and blu have many of differences. Although they are both hybrids mages, they have many differences within the jobs themselves as far as what they are able to do and how they do it. Blu also relies on skillchains for dmg out put. Though I respect your opinion that their skill should remain at A, I have to disagree. Blu is in the frontline much more then rdm, and blu can use all the acc they can get to build tp for skillchains. Though if SE did ever decide to raise rdm's sword skills to A+, I would not be against it in the slightest. I just don't think it would be as useful to rdm as it is for blu.

[Dale]

This is correct. Blu has a lot of good support spells but most (aside from diamondhide) can be uses on other party members. We get refresh and haste but we can only use it on ourselves. We also cannot have all spells set at once, where rdm has access to their entire spell pool. None of our traits are native. They all depend on our spell line up. Bottom line is rdm and blu have many of differences. Although they are both hybrids mages, they have many differences within the jobs themselves as far as what they are able to do and how they do it. Blu also relies on skillchains for dmg out put. Though I respect your opinion that their skill should remain at A, I have to disagree. Blu is in the frontline much more then rdm, and blu can use all the acc they can get to build tp for skillchains. Though if SE did ever decide to raise rdm's sword skills to A+, I would not be against it in the slightest. I just don't think it would be as useful to rdm as it is for blu.

It's more philosophical from my standpoint. Because I just think the A+ ranks should be reserved for the straight up melee classes rather than Mages. I do think Blue Mages should have a higher sword skill than Red Mages though, especially now that you have confirmed they cannot cast most of their support spells on other party members.

[Zekander]

That is not entirely true, Blue Mages have a job ability that, much like accession, turns their support spell into an aoe. I do know however, that this JA is on a very long timer, 10 minutes iirc, and accept that as a valid point in the differences between RDM and BLU. Nonetheless I think leaving RDM out of skill changes, is very very very offensive to the RDM community who have been screaming about it almost since day 1. I don't recall ever hearing that BLUs complaining about their sword rank, mostly it was about their spells and the restrictions placed on them. Now I don't believe RDM should get an A+ in sword either, an A- would be more then sufficient. Also look at some of the other jobs in that list, THF and NIN yeah they should get buffed, but PUP and BST? They already have considerable damage and utility potential in their pets, they really have no need to have their skills buffed at all, I would consider them in the same position as RDM, It's not as though this increase will get them invited to endgame content.

Few things SE has done over the years have upset me as much as this.

[Demonjustin]

One of RDM's issues comes in the form of accuracy, a skill buff would help mitigate that issue directly. I wouldn't say put us at A+, no, but B+ or A would be just fine in my opinion. Another thing that should be mentioned is the fact that they're addressing physical skills and yet our Shield Skill is still at F rank. I know I've said it multiple times before, but honestly F rank shield skill means we're floored on block rate on basically anything we'd ever fight. Even in pure Shield Skill gear I think we barely hit around 440ish, ignoring the fact that said gear would be absolutely terrible for general use that's still only putting us at around the same skill as a level 99 naked PLD...

[Selindrile]

BLU is a hybrid sword wielder like RDM.... why them and not us? I don't know why SE feels the need to buff BLU further, they are OP already.

Blu is a hybrid with a focus on DPS, Rdm is a hybrid with a focus on support, you actually see shouts for Rdms, not Blus. Blu is not OP.

That said, I have 0 qualms about increasing Rdms melee ability I absolutely think every job should have an A+ in it's core skills, and Sword is definitely one for Rdm. And I wish they'd buff Enspell II's, as well, they're rather silly as they are.

I just took objection to calling Blu OP, though we've admittedly gotten a lot of Dev love lately (which I am very grateful for), we're still behind the leading jobs that share our role in a party, though we are admittedly now above the average, and many jobs could use more buffs than we could now, but we're still no Sam or Mnk or Rng, or even really Thf (though obviously not for DD reasons) in the "DD role" in terms of desirability, but we're now ahead or tied with most of the remaining DDs.

The only reason Rdms are shouted for more than Blus, honestly, is because the support role in general is rarer than DD, they're still behind Brd and Whm, in terms of support desirability.