Useless spells

[Selindrile]

Why is the statement that I think Red Mage is one of the best designed classes so hilarious?

Very few games have been able to pull off an effective support class role. This game's Red Mage is one of the very few that has succeeded at it.

Because they were designed with "meleeing, in a party atmosphere" in mind, which has never, ever been the norm, Rdm was pretty much ignored by the populace before Refresh was made, that one spell skyrocketed it into usefulness above all other jobs, debuffing was possible but never really all that reliable on ITs (except Bio/Dia) that were the bread and butter of oldschool XI, and yes they obsoleted Whm, but that wasn't out of better design overall, they were both pretty barebones before Whm got Afflatuses and Rdm got Composure.

The reason Rdm suceeded as a support mage had nothing to do with it's overall design, it was and is access to unique buffs and debuffs which are very useful, which ones are useful have changed over the years with the content.

From a design perspective Drg, Sch, Dnc, were much better thought out and crafted jobs, good concept design doesn't always translate to actual ingame utility if the numbers aren't balanced. (Though admittedly composure was a really cool and successful design choice, once they added that.)

As for other MMOs successful support classes: Enchanter and Bard from EQ? Shamans from WoW? Control Wizard from NWN? (I haven't played every MMO out there but those pop into my head right off as great examples of successful support classes from popular MMOs.)

[Dale]

Because they were designed with "meleeing, in a party atmosphere" in mind, which has never, ever been the norm, Rdm was pretty much ignored by the populace before Refresh was made, that one spell skyrocketed it into usefulness above all other jobs, debuffing was possible but never really all that reliable on ITs (except Bio/Dia) that were the bread and butter of oldschool XI, and yes they obsoleted Whm, but that wasn't out of better design overall, they were both pretty barebones before Whm got Afflatuses and Rdm got Composure.

The reason Rdm suceeded as a support mage had nothing to do with it's overall design, it was and is access to unique buffs and debuffs which are very useful, which ones are useful have changed over the years with the content.

From a design perspective Drg, Sch, Dnc, were much better thought out and crafted jobs, good concept design doesn't always translate to actual ingame utility if the numbers aren't balanced. (Though admittedly composure was a really cool and successful design choice, once they added that.)

As for other MMOs successful support classes: Enchanter and Bard from EQ? Shamans from WoW? Control Wizard from NWN? (I haven't played every MMO out there but those pop into my head right off as great examples of successful support classes from popular MMOs.)

I'll agree with you the job was flawed before composure was added. But giving the job unique buffs and enfeebles and changing them for the better is part of its design and why it succeeds as a support class to begin with. So I'm not sure what we are disagreeing about. I was never trying to say Red Mage was well-designed from the beginning. It wasn't. I'm judging the class as it stands today.

Also Red Mage can function as support in melee. You'll just need a lot of accuracy gear and it may not be ideal to engage against certain notorious monsters. But in most party settings - even against incredibly toughs - Red Mage can use melee adequately if they so choose. They will never be balanced with a dragoon as you point out. But they shouldn't be. It's a support class, and we aren't suppose to be balanced with other classes in melee damage. That's why we can use phalanx 2 and haste 2 on the dragoon you mention and turn him into a beast.

I never played EQ or NWN, but the support Shaman in WoW failed. It's now just used as a healer or damage dealer.