This thread AGAIN, please, fix WK.

[OmnysValefor]

Uhg no. It's the community who makes jobs irrelevant because NA players only care about statistics. JPs don't disc tomato jobs based on statistics. Oh this job does max damage. This job is most effecient.

Dig out your ninjas and black mages guys. Sure BLM can't stun *nearly* as often as SCH, but if they press the button really hard, that matters.

PLD - Can't hold hate.
NIN - Can neither hold hate nor supertank.
RDM - Can't heal like a whm, not event close. Can't nuke or stun like an SCH / nuke like a blm.
BLU - SE doesn't even care that a number of BLU's enfeebles aren't procing.
BST, PUP - Just don't do enough damage for the spot. They're also expensive to keep your pet up, if even feasible, amidst all the ayes.
DRG - Only gets invited for one reason. Angon. If DRGs didn't have Angon, it just wouldn't be on the list.
DNC - You can dance if you want to, but you do damage for poo.
THF - lolTHF, bound by abilities and traits that are part of practically a different game.
BRD - Just Kidding, I just wanted you to lolwut

We would still use RDMs for enfeebles, if everything couldn't enfeeble already, and the pace of battle mattered anything more than ZERG IT BEFORE WE RUN OUT OF STUNZ ORZ.

Acceptable strategies for PLD would be used if PLD could actually hold hate. Like I said above, Ninja can neither hold hate, or take the heat so much better than a DD that they deserve a spot.

RUN, how about RUN. RUN's entire existence serves a purpose noone cares about. Noone needs a real tank anymore and as for the dd-tank, that was kinda ninja's spot, and noone uses ninja either.

* * *

No, SE made the jobs what they are. Check the forums for the jobs, people really really want them to come back, and SE has said no.

The only time they talk about PLD, they say they don't want hate to become a non-issue, as if PLD can actually hold hate. Having hate for the swing immediately after a voke/flash is not "tanking".

You're familiar with the RDM community. RDMs want something that gives them definition again, some want to bring it into new areas. SE is happy with where RDM is--or rather, is not.

[Rekin]

If unfavored jobs are to be even considered for non-optimal runs in high end content the majority of them would require massive revamps in themselves and the game's mechanics, both are unlikely to occur.

Only recently did they devs give a response to extremely long lasting bugs about blu enfeebles not working and their post about changing blu spell formulas only address physical spells. So I suppose thats 2/5s victory for one job. Now lets address the problems concerning the other jobs. (PS. arguing for versatility to make up lack of ability in large group events is a no-no.)

Right now jobs that are dps and aren't War/Sam/Rng/Drk/Mnk(woohoo the number has gone up from 3 to 5) have to rely on one specific thing to get invited. Example: Dragoon as Omnys mentioned is only invited for Angon. Its dmg is comparable to the go to DDs only if those dd are handled by morons. Red Mage capable of doing many mage tasks to a much lesser degree to the point of uselessness.

Daemon its nice you see things in a rosier view but reality is cruel. No one in their right mind now will risk failure in time consuming events because someone thought their sub-par job(by design) was sufficient enough to the task others are much better at even at their worst.

[Daemon]

Dig out your ninjas and black mages guys. Sure BLM can't stun *nearly* as often as SCH, but if they press the button really hard, that matters.

PLD - Can't hold hate.
NIN - Can neither hold hate nor supertank.
RDM - Can't heal like a whm, not event close. Can't nuke or stun like an SCH / nuke like a blm.
BLU - SE doesn't even care that a number of BLU's enfeebles aren't procing.
BST, PUP - Just don't do enough damage for the spot. They're also expensive to keep your pet up, if even feasible, amidst all the ayes.
DRG - Only gets invited for one reason. Angon. If DRGs didn't have Angon, it just wouldn't be on the list.
DNC - You can dance if you want to, but you do damage for poo.
THF - lolTHF, bound by abilities and traits that are part of practically a different game.
BRD - Just Kidding, I just wanted you to lolwut

We would still use RDMs for enfeebles, if everything couldn't enfeeble already, and the pace of battle mattered anything more than ZERG IT BEFORE WE RUN OUT OF STUNZ ORZ.

Acceptable strategies for PLD would be used if PLD could actually hold hate. Like I said above, Ninja can neither hold hate, or take the heat so much better than a DD that they deserve a spot.

RUN, how about RUN. RUN's entire existence serves a purpose noone cares about. Noone needs a real tank anymore and as for the dd-tank, that was kinda ninja's spot, and noone uses ninja either.

* * *

No, SE made the jobs what they are. Check the forums for the jobs, people really really want them to come back, and SE has said no.

The only time they talk about PLD, they say they don't want hate to become a non-issue, as if PLD can actually hold hate. Having hate for the swing immediately after a voke/flash is not "tanking".

You're familiar with the RDM community. RDMs want something that gives them definition again, some want to bring it into new areas. SE is happy with where RDM is--or rather, is not.

I just love how you look at jobs and make instant judgement. But then its because today people depend on big groups and no organization that would make you look at it this way.

Use the job for what they can do, not the way you expect them to do what you want.

It seems like you only look at jobs based on dps and nothing else.

And it's not about what 1 person can do. It's about what everyone can do as a team.

[OmnysValefor]

Your in-depth response clearly countered my point and represented the validity of all those jobs.

[detlef]

I love how when comparing DD jobs, the non-optimal job is being played by a professional gamer while the MNK/WAR/SAM/DRK is being played by a cat walking on the keyboard.

[Daemon]

Your in-depth response clearly countered my point and represented the validity of all those jobs.

Funny I've seen good PLDs hold hate. They tank first, have DDs form Skillchains, TP off mobs and only use WS on boss.

This prevents bosses from TPing too fast. And prevents PLD from losing hate.

BLMs? Stack Dot spells, deal damage with low tier spells at a pace.

Blue mages? Can help support party with Spells like diamondskin, Occultation, Pyric Bulwark, Cacoon, can help Batterycharge mages which stick longer than Refresh.

Ninja? Can TP off mobs and WS on boss, Til this day I still use Blade Retsu for Paralyze.

Dancers? Can help stun, haste, Chocobo jig the entire party to get through maps fast.

Thief can still Feint, Bulky, steal hate off mages and be considered a decent sacrifice than losing a WHM. Can dodge hits and still SATA off PLD by raising TP off mobs so PLD can keep hate.

Don't underestimate RUN, they have ability to lower magic damage, give invincibility to magic spells for a short time. And yes it makes a difference when you have Shell, magic def Set.

Point is every job have abilities, skills that can benefit the entire party IF EVERYONE KNOWS HOW TO WORK AS A TEAM AND EVERYONE IS WELL PREPARED.

Bard carols make a difference. A very big difference stacked with barspell, Shell, Run buff, Magic def gear.

If done properly you have tanker holding boss, while DDs rotate WS and Skillchains, Mages are focused on keeping buffs up and keeping party alive.

Enfeebled and dotted at all times unless doing Taxet.

Scholar Embrava, Regen V, phalanx, Enspells, Storms, TP regain, stoneskin in dire moments.

Summoners are amazing if they support instead of being a 1 man show.

[OmnysValefor]

@Daemon, (this has nothing to do with detlef's post)

The jobs we frame battle around are the simple jobs because battle is now simple. That's not to say it doesn't take exception players to get things like the first Delve kills. Those players could also be amazing red mages and thieves too, top-of-the-line probably, but they'd still not perform as well.

That's what SE has boiled the game down to, raw damage output and megapowerful healing with stunlocking where appropriate. Before Embrava/PD Nerf, those were instrumental in first kills. If Embrava and PD were still huge things, the first groups would have used them and had their kills earlier.

Edit: Many groups still take advantage of Embrava on bosses when the sch 2 hours to stunlock. The effects of embrava are still potent, just not as game-changing as they were.

[Daemon]

@Daemon, (this has nothing to do with detlef's post)

The jobs we frame battle around are the simple jobs because battle is now simple. That's not to say it doesn't take exception players to get things like the first Delve kills. Those players could also be amazing red mages and thieves too, top-of-the-line probably, but they'd still not perform as well.

That's what SE has boiled the game down to, raw damage output and megapowerful healing with stunlocking where appropriate. Before Embrava/PD Nerf, those were instrumental in first kills. If Embrava and PD were still huge things, the first groups would have used them and had their kills earlier.

More parties than I can count we've either succeeded or stayed alive longer when I played as scholar in the group. Embrava is still goid and very powerful.

Stacked with Regen V you have a very powerful Regen with Phalanx and stoneskin up. Survivability is much higher than just depending on WHM to heal wasting too much MP for instant cures. And having Regen and Embrava up in facts saves MP.

Shockspikes even help party stay alive longer due to subtle stun effect.

Problem is everyone is Power hungry and only want to use highest DPS gear and no PDT. Which then hate control becomes impossible, especially when groups thinks its smart to engage boss the entire time rather than use mobs for TP.

Once DDs start dying then other DDs become meat shields for a short time only to die and entire party to wipe.

When all DD sacrifice some DPS as a whole and all mages work together to keep phalanx stoneskin protect shell shock spikes enfeebled dots, Regen, using whispering wind from Garuda. The entire group stays alive at the cost of sacrificing some DPS in the long term run you are dealing damage consistently than when party wipes out and have weakened members with weak damage trying to deal damage.

Even as a Mage class I wear some PDT or MDT gear to take less damage from Aoe which saves more MP and helps me survive longer.

[OmnysValefor]

Funny I've seen good PLDs hold hate. They tank first, have DDs form Skillchains, TP off mobs and only use WS on boss.

That's not legitimate tanking, and this is even only feasible--if it's feasible anymore (haven't seen this since abyssea) because you're handicapping your dd's. All the phrases to use, "holding back", "handicapping", they're all understaements.

This prevents bosses from TPing too fast. And prevents PLD from losing hate.

In the rare instance where someone messed something up while I was supertanking in delve, let me tell you that I could hold solid hate on two NMs (that happened once, one whm flashed the cricket, and the other whm body agrod the butterflies to "bring them to me"). I did fine and dandy until I hit hate cap.

You see, that's what happens, after enough time, healers have built up so much enmity that they pull away. They can even pull out of 8 or 10 DDs landing several hits a second.

Enmity is broken.

BLMs? Stack Dot spells, deal damage with low tier spells at a pace.

SCH/BLM? In between stuns, stack dot spells, toss in dispels if necessary, and maybe a few quick casting low tier nukes.

Blue mages? Can help support party with Spells like diamondskin, Occultation, Pyric Bulwark, Cacoon, can help Batterycharge mages which stick longer than Refresh.

Short of diamondhide, I believe all those are single target and need diffusion, a 10 minute cooldown.

Ninja? Can TP off mobs and WS on boss, Til this day I still use Blade Retsu for Paralyze.

Not even touching how far-reaching this one is.

Dancers? Can help stun, haste, Chocobo jig the entire party to get through maps fast.

Bosses will so reliably resist a dancer's stuns that no reasonable group would depend on them. They also depend on melee accuracy to even land the hit. SCH can stun twice as fast as dancer with strats, and just as fast once strats are gone.

Thief can still Feint, Bulky, steal hate off mages and be considered a decent sacrifice than losing a WHM. Can dodge hits and still SATA off PLD by raising TP off mobs so PLD can keep hate.

Yes, they can, but they suffer from being probably the weakest damage dealer.

Don't underestimate RUN, they have ability to lower magic damage, give invincibility to magic spells for a short time. And yes it makes a difference when you have Shell, magic def Set.

Aside from the enfeebling side-effects, my aegis is damn near immune to magic damage and tanks a hit incomparably better than a RUN. I cleared 1150 defense with Defender, and no food. I could bust a taco and probably tap 1350.

[Daemon]

That's not legitimate tanking, and this is even only feasible--if it's feasible anymore (haven't seen this since abyssea) because you're handicapping your dd's. All the phrases to use, "holding back", "handicapping", they're all understaements.

How are you handicapping your DDs? Stacking Skillchains do massive damage. On scholar I've tested self Skillchain and have done distortion for 50-70 DMG followed by Darkness dealing up to 13k solo in Abby and WoE. Although I had atmas, temps, buffs, it was a test to see how new gear makes Skillchain more powerful. Skillchains is a lost art that people either have forgotten or don't know how much powerful they can be with the current gear and stats.

Not only did my WS do more DMG than normal, my darkness also had a significant boost in damage which total to 13k altogether. And casting Dia before doing selfskillchain also contributed to make it happen.

And SCH is not DD.

We do them all the time in my JP LS. Our main LS leader is Ochain PLD and he holds bosses perfectly fine.
They cycle off regular mobs and TP off boss to prevent bosses from TPing faster, casting spells faster etc.

And this prevents tanker from losing hate making boss turn and randomly attack others.

Difference is, we've been practicing together for years. No one talks but listens. And leader is usually the only person talking in every single event. We work as a team and I follow orders when given.

In the rare instance where someone messed something up while I was supertanking in delve, let me tell you that I could hold solid hate on two NMs (that happened once, one whm flashed the cricket, and the other whm body agrod the butterflies to "bring them to me"). I did fine and dandy until I hit hate cap.

You see, that's what happens, after enough time, healers have built up so much enmity that they pull away. They can even pull out of 8 or 10 DDs landing several hits a second.

Enmity is broken.

I don't think enmity is broken. Crickets reset hate in general that's why those are a pain. Which cricket NM can be bound with bind, gravity 2 and slept.

Man I really wish you was on my server. People laugh that I full time Hvelgamir in Delve plasm farming. But we always net 9k and my group always survives perfectly fine than the other 2 alliances. And I'm always standing near DD wearing -PDT gear as a scholar. Bard eventually stop Mage ballad me. And those people laughing start checking my gear when they see me evade, take less damage or survive longer than most everyone else. Only to wonder what I'm doing to make it happen.

A lot of times i'm switching gears that don't make my character blink. And that's why people get confused.

SCH/BLM? In between stuns, stack dot spells, toss in dispels if necessary, and maybe a few quick casting low tier nukes.

Lol parties need to constantly stun because the more people attacking the faster the pace mob will act. TPing fast etc. that's why less people with less attacking except in the case of a boss that resets TP, watch how fast mobs TP, cast spells, use abilities in solo vids. Try something like WoE with LS members with low man group vs 18 people. Is why you see many scholar vids solo VW bosses running around a mountain kiting.

Kiting mob also can interrupt its Spellcasting and running far away at the moment mob is about TP can prevent it. I mean if its chasing you...

Short of diamondhide, I believe all those are single target and need diffusion, a 10 minute cooldown.

Pyric bulwark is good, diamond hide doesn't require Diffusion.

Bosses will so reliably resist a dancer's stuns that no reasonable group would depend on them. They also depend on melee accuracy to even land the hit. SCH can stun twice as fast as dancer with strats, and just as fast once strats are gone.

Lol it's sad, you are wasting scholars with stun than what scholars can really do. It's my main job. Keeping Regen V, Phalanx, Stoneskin, TP regain, storms, Schock spikes benefit more than stun slaving.

Dancers haste Samba, Curing Walk, Healing Waltz, Still make a difference.

Aside from the enfeebling side-effects, my aegis is damn near immune to magic damage and tanks a hit incomparably better than a RUN. I cleared 1150 defense with Defender, and no food. I could bust a taco and probably tap 1350.

That's probably because you've never seen a well geared Mage well buffed, well geared, brings best food, and knows how to use correct spells.

Your Aegis PLD can protect your party members with ability? RUN can.

It's why my inventory is maxed out. I use defense gear with -PDT, have stonskin set to give stronger stoneskin stacked with protect V and Phalanx, with Regen V, some Aoe lower damage on a few DD lightly. Instead of wasting MP curing them on a boss I know won't deal massive damage fast, I let Regen cure instead while I do other tasks.

This is why I spent 6 hours a day or more everyday practicing my skills, knowing my timers, and figuring out when to do certain tasks if all else fails.

I still don't understand why people think rotating bards for 6 songs is worth sacrificing slot for other jobs like summoner.

And extra scholar could help other parties stay alive longer.

RDM with Fast cast might only stun every 35 Seconds but they have paralyze, blind, Addle to make up for it. Chainspell stun with relic +2 body give 20 seconds more to CS which is perfect for boss at 10% to 5% HP left if something goes wrong and need to stall to give fallen members chance to get up.

But other jobs should be contributing as well.

I just see too many people being assigned to one or two task than knowing when to contribute their all every second of the fight. Following robotic orders.

And Scholar with high INT, MAB, Hailstorm, Cream puff, using Ebullence and Kausta does massive DOT damage. And I still don't see scholars do that.

I can do it on Mikey and probably kill it with only Kaustra that's how powerful it is. And people think Scholar is worthless after regain nerf.....

Literally you can see HP dropping off Mikey if you watched.

I did Kaustra on Hurkan the day DJ took me. Boss died in 15 minutes at 35% HP. Given a JP Scholar was spamming Kaustra too.

I would never use thief to be damage dealer. I'd use them as pullers, steal enmity off WHM or SCH even if they have to die to keep the main healer alive, although followed by stealing enmity, using Bully could spare seconds, Feint, SATA onto main tanker.

Imagine with all scholar buffs including Regen V and Embrava plus Alexandrite perfect defense. Bard and COR buffs up too. Blink or occultation on top of that.

How can you not survive long enough to massacre and deal some decent damage within that time window?

Which is why I still don't understand parties cycling 3 bards before and during a boss fight for 6 songs >.>

If people did not discriminate others for playing a job, they would learn to make use of every jobs skills, abilities than resort to robotic setups assigning 1-2 task per person and hitting WS every time TP hits 100% in hopes that everyone could take down the boss before people start wiping out....,

And then when DEVs announce how strange setups like RNG, DRG was part of a team that took down a WR boss first wouldn't be wondering how its possible.

Every job has potential to be powerful. You just don't see it because too many people would never invite them leaving people not to play those jobs therefore never showing anyone the full potential of what they can do.

Too many people assume if you cannot DPS higher than someone else, the job is useless.

A Dragoon saved my life healing me with her Wyvern when no other Mage tossed me a cure when I ran out of MP CS cures, enfeebles, stuns....

And then I wonder why people laugh at dragoons making use of the abilities they have. She wasn't following robotic orders, she was paying attention and saved me at the moment no one else did.