Aegis > RUN

[Cljader1]

I fought tax'et on run plenty of times and died on run plenty times. I remember popping a "One for All" on me dd's pld and almost got kicked for ripping hate from the pld. After I ripped hate I got hit 2-3 times with physical attacks at +500 a piece and died quickly, pug group was highly upset and not my greatest run moment. However, what I realized is run paperbag defense will not allow it to be and effective tank. However tax'et has a move that can one shot you and run can valiance or vallation to stop that one shot aoe ability, but pld but doesn't need any such ability to live they have the super aegis shield that's on all the time and there is no paper bag def problem plus a 65% block rate with that shield, that's the job who can stare the mob in the face. Furthermore, if all else fails pld can use a secret tactic and Zombie Tank, which is another thing run cant do.

Please do not ever nerf Aegis shield I love that shield and its been here long before run, fix run from not being such an embarrassment compared to the shield and leave the shield alone. Job fixes is what needs to be addressed, I hope SE gets it.

[Archaea]

I fought tax'et on run plenty of times and died on run plenty times. I remember popping a "One for All" on me dd's pld and almost got kicked for ripping hate from the pld. After I ripped hate I got hit 2-3 times with physical attacks at +500 a piece and died quickly, pug group was highly upset and not my greatest run moment. However, what I realized is run paperbag defense will not allow it to be and effective tank. However tax'et has a move that can one shot you and run can valiance or vallation to stop that one shot aoe ability, but pld but doesn't need any such ability to live they have the super aegis shield that's on all the time and there is no paper bag def problem plus a 65% block rate with that shield, that's the job who can stare the mob in the face. Furthermore, if all else fails pld can use a secret tactic and Zombie Tank, which is another thing run cant do.

Please do not ever nerf Aegis shield I love that shield and its been here long before run, fix run from not being such an embarrassment compared to the shield and leave the shield alone. Job fixes is what needs to be addressed, I hope SE gets it.

So... how are you guys even geared cus ive hit upwards of 1.1k defense on RUN... 950ish when i dont embolden protect 5. Consistant -50% pdt every fast cast item available except for chelona boots +1(using NQ) using actual tank food and phalanx... these NMs only hit for 75-115 dmg a hit hell the butterflies have hit me for less than that(usually 60-100... with proper use of aquaveil and stoneskin you mitigate quite a large chunk of damage. and RUN easily hits -87.5% MDT...... -.- Embolden Shell 5 then -14% MDT from gear. meaning you can put resists and MDB in all other available slots dont forget liement can absorb magic tp moves as well...
And raged taxet the only move truely worth mentioning is his TP move which could have hit for 1.6k while raged. Now its even easier to deal with cus you're just forcing exuv then letting DDs rip it appart


in no way shape or form have i said its better than PLD. Ive said its capable.
Preforms very well ALONGSIDE a pld and can stand alone if needed

[Cljader1]

So... how are you guys even geared cus ive hit upwards of 1.1k defense on RUN... 950ish when i dont embolden protect 5. Consistant -50% pdt every fast cast item available except for chelona boots +1(using NQ) using actual tank food and phalanx... these NMs only hit for 75-115 dmg a hit hell the butterflies have hit me for less than that(usually 60-100... with proper use of aquaveil and stoneskin you mitigate quite a large chunk of damage. and RUN easily hits -87.5% MDT...... -.- Embolden Shell 5 then -14% MDT from gear. meaning you can put resists and MDB in all other available slots dont forget liement can absorb magic tp moves as well...
And raged taxet the only move truely worth mentioning is his TP move which could have hit for 1.6k while raged. Now its even easier to deal with cus you're just forcing exuv then letting DDs rip it appart


in no way shape or form have i said its better than PLD. Ive said its capable.
Preforms very well ALONGSIDE a pld and can stand alone if needed

Run does not have pro 5. I don't think run is capable of holding nm's at the moment, you cant embolden everything and you can't reapply aquaviel and stoneskin whenever you want because of the long casting times. Yeah I can get a 1000 def going /blu with tacos, cacoon and embolden pro 4, but buffs do not last long and are very difficult to reapply. Cacoon wears off in like 60 seconds, and flash deos not give you to much time agianst a adoulin nm. Run have no restorative capabilities besides very slow regens and when tanking they are almost useless.

[Yinnyth]

So... how are you guys even geared cus ive hit upwards of 1.1k defense on RUN... 950ish when i dont embolden protect 5. Consistant -50% pdt every fast cast item available except for chelona boots +1(using NQ) using actual tank food and phalanx...

Where are you getting this consistant 50% PDT from, and how do you hold hate if you TP in it?

these NMs only hit for 75-115 dmg a hit hell the butterflies have hit me for less than that(usually 60-100... with proper use of aquaveil and stoneskin you mitigate quite a large chunk of damage. and RUN easily hits -87.5% MDT...... -.- Embolden Shell 5 then -14% MDT from gear. meaning you can put resists and MDB in all other available slots dont forget liement can absorb magic tp moves as well...

RUN cannot hit -87.5% MDT, even against a single element. MDT caps at 50% and aegis is the only MDT source in the game capable of breaking that cap aside from vallation/valliance. With 3 runes, vall gives 45% damage reduction against its element, but it's MULTIPLIED, not added to MDT. So if you have 50% MDT and use vallation with unda x3, you will take 72.25% decreased damage from fire, not the 87.5% that aegis makes a PLD capable of. And don't forget liement can absorb spikes damage for a whole 20 HP then wear off.

And raged taxet the only move truely worth mentioning is his TP move which could have hit for 1.6k while raged. Now its even easier to deal with cus you're just forcing exuv then letting DDs rip it appart

Force exuv >> rip him apart was always the strategy. RUN still has very little to do with that strategy unless you can't find a PLD or heavy DDs.

in no way shape or form have i said its better than PLD. Ive said its capable.
Preforms very well ALONGSIDE a pld and can stand alone if needed

This whole thread is regarding the idea that Aegis PLD outclasses RUN in tanking anything and everything. If you agree that Aegis PLD is better at taking magical damage than RUN, why come here to highlight what RUN is capable of? Every job deserves that thing they're best at. What is RUN best at?

[Archaea]

Where are you getting this consistant 50% PDT from, and how do you hold hate if you TP in it?


RUN cannot hit -87.5% MDT, even against a single element. MDT caps at 50% and aegis is the only MDT source in the game capable of breaking that cap aside from vallation/valliance. With 3 runes, vall gives 45% damage reduction against its element, but it's MULTIPLIED, not added to MDT. So if you have 50% MDT and use vallation with unda x3, you will take 72.25% decreased damage from fire, not the 87.5% that aegis makes a PLD capable of. And don't forget liement can absorb spikes damage for a whole 20 HP then wear off.


Force exuv >> rip him apart was always the strategy. RUN still has very little to do with that strategy unless you can't find a PLD or heavy DDs.




This whole thread is regarding the idea that Aegis PLD outclasses RUN in tanking anything and everything. If you agree that Aegis PLD is better at taking magical damage than RUN, why come here to highlight what RUN is capable of? Every job deserves that thing they're best at. What is RUN best at?

Yeah that was an I'm half asleep mistake as far as the 87.5% was running PLDs numbers in my head at the time. anyway. Unless a mob has ridiculous fast cast you can Rune > Liement only 1 correct rune is required for the absorb.
RUN does indeed only need 14% to hit the -50% MDT cap which is accomplished by a simple Dring + Twilight torque or something similar meaning again... MDB in all other available slots.

And what do you mean spike damage of a whole 20hp. Its more-so there to NEGATE the damage than absorb it... the heal is just a nice addition RUN doesn't get Pro 5 but you can currently embolden a protect/protectra5 that's being cast ON you. You dont embolden everything. You consider which will be the bigger threat.. The Magic or the Physical and embolden accordingly.(Oh you ment things like blaze spikes... if you arent smart enough to turn around when something has spikes on and is casting then thats a personal problem lol....)

Single element magic damage is seriously just a joke to deal with and doesn't hurt at all. I also still think its funny that we're comparing a job that's been out since 2003 that's had numerous changes and 10 years of gear under its belt to something that came out recently and has nothing specifically made for them.

As far as Tax'et is concerned no tank is going to hold hate off Heavy-DDs unless they're severely gimping themselves... the idea is to keep hate off your support(in the event heavy DDs die) and to hold hate during the exuv phase... Capping and Maintaining capped VE is extremely easy so tanking in full PDT is perfectly fine.

Lets go over your hate tools and their numbers....
These are all base numbers assuming you didn't macro in Enmity gear which I do.

Gambit: CE 640, VE 1280
Flash: CE 180, VE 1280
Provoke: CE 1, VE 1800
Rune Enchantments: 80 CE, 320 VE
Vallation: 450 CE, 900 VE
Liement: 450 CE 900VE
Valiance: 450 CE, 900VE per target hit (hitting the entire PT is 2700 CE, 5400 VE)
One for all: 160 CE, 320 VE per target hit
Swordplay: 160 CE, 320 VE
Warcry: 1 CE, 300 VE per target hit
Elemental Sforzo: 1800 CE, 7200 VE
every buff you recast: ~1 CE, 300 VE
Correct me if I'm wrong but None of PLDs abilities even generate CE over 1 aside from Invincible?

Value for Pflug and Revamped Foil I'm not sure about but lack of hate tools is definitely not an issue. Someones probably going to throw out acc issues but you can stack aggressor and swordplay since you aren't going to be evading anything in the first place

As far as magic damage ok. We'll assume ideal conditions then. Single Element. so with 72.25% -MDT to a specific element and 50% -MDT to all others we also have to factor in resists. You will have 162 resistance just from runes and an additional 126 with capped enhancing magic(no enhancing skill gear just merits) so a total of 288 resistance to that element before gear(Lets not include carols because if the PLD gets em the RUN should too. Now i don't have exact numbers for that sadly so ill just lowball and say I get a level 1 resist 1/3rd of the time, even though its actually waaaay more often than that.

so depending on how ffxi does magic resist math that means 1/3rd(low balling) of the time a spell that would hit you for 1000 dmg would only hit for 138.75 assuming this value is floored so 138. 2 spells hit for 277 1 spell hits for 138: 692 damage
PLD takes 375. Now lets add in Liement You absorb one of the spells that hits for 277 so now you're only taking 415 damage. Now lets go out on a limb here and say you have the same stoneskin set that i have(-8% cast time and 31 Fast Cast. We can Go ahead and negate another spell with that because i can assure you i can and have completed a stoneskin cast while being nuked with a T4/5 spell so between the 3 casts you either take 138 dmg or 277 dmg. (Im too sleepy to throw in the 1/4th and 1/8th resists that happen quite often and I also didn't factor in magic defense bonus

RUN gets 22 base MDB(Magic Defense Bonus VII) with simple things such as, lamia mantle +1 the delve neck piece, Lunette Ring, really old boots with like +2 mdb or something mijin stud you're adding another +23 and an additional +10 resist from the correct satchet putting you at 298 resist. Oh yeah and One for all is a strait shield that negates a set amount of damage(please correct me if I'm wrong on that).

I'm addressing the complaint that RUN cant tank ANYTHING in the new content that's been said multiple times and is completely untrue. Before pointing out the title of the thread consider everything that's been said since we all know that threads completely derail. More than once it's been said that RUN cant handle any of the new content and that statement is completely untrue.

So in a situation where the enemy is casting single elements, RUN outclasses Aegis PLD in magic damage taken


And reapplying stoneskin and aquaveil really isn't hard at all. You have flash for when you accidentally let aquaveil drop but remember its -100% SIR for a set number of hits depending on enhancing skill. I get 3 Hits uninterrupted and only get hit 1-2 times during casting so alternating the 2 is completely feasible.




Oh and consistant PDT
ToM Gsword -13%
Twilight Neck -5%
Mollusca Mantle -5%
Flume Belt -4%
Dux Head Body Hands Legs -13%
Thurandaut feet -3%
My crappy dark rings -9%
52% 2% over cap // meaning 7% missing from not having dux+1 and 2x 6 pdt dark rings and a -2% pdt earring (<3 ethereal too much to do 2 pdt earrings) giving you 11% of room to play with some slots

[Zagen]

RUN does indeed only need 14% to hit the -50% MDT cap which is accomplished by a simple Dring + Twilight torque or something similar meaning again... MDB in all other available slots.

I find it funny you even bring up Defending Ring, generally that ring is excluded because of it's rarity but hey if a RUN can use it so can an Aegis PLD!

Shellra V = 27%
Defending Ring = 10%
Aegis 99 = 50%
Total = 87% (.5% short of the cap Aegis allows)

Look it only takes PLD 2 gear slots too except that 1 gear slot allows it to surpass the 50% cap that RUN is stuck at.

By the way that's full time before you bring up Valiance. If Valiance could be full timed that would be a different story as that should always actually be better (assuming only 1 element is used by the monster) than an Aegis 99 PLD's reduction but it isn't full time its 3/5 minutes.

Already overall better than RUN and I haven't even brought up the 65% block rate or that it's a size 5 shield.

I also still think its funny that we're comparing a job that's been out since 2003 that's had numerous changes and 10 years of gear under its belt to something that came out recently and has nothing specifically made for them

You realize we're comparing it to that because at the moment that job in the context of the OP is the "magical tank" which is what RUN was pegged to be.

As far as Tax'et is concerned no tank is going to hold hate off Heavy-DDs unless they're severely gimping themselves... the idea is to keep hate off your support(in the event heavy DDs die) and to hold hate during the exuv phase... Capping and Maintaining capped VE is extremely easy so tanking in full PDT is perfectly fine.

You're right not even a PLD is going to hold hate off the DDs once they're brought in to kill this NM however a PLD will hold it much better than a RUN would while trying to remove it's PDT. Also those DDs give up much less than a RUN does when using a hybrid PDT/Haste build.

Lets go over your hate tools and their numbers....
These are all base numbers assuming you didn't macro in Enmity gear which I do.

Gambit: CE 640, VE 1280
Flash: CE 180, VE 1280
Provoke: CE 1, VE 1800
Rune Enchantments: 80 CE, 320 VE
Vallation: 450 CE, 900 VE
Liement: 450 CE 900VE
Valiance: 450 CE, 900VE per target hit (hitting the entire PT is 2700 CE, 5400 VE)
One for all: 160 CE, 320 VE per target hit
Swordplay: 160 CE, 320 VE
Warcry: 1 CE, 300 VE per target hit
Elemental Sforzo: 1800 CE, 7200 VE
every buff you recast: ~1 CE, 300 VE
Correct me if I'm wrong but None of PLDs abilities even generate CE over 1 aside from Invincible?

You are correct though I crossed out the abilities that aren't exclusive to RUN. That said you're the only person who's brought up the notion that a RUN needs to justify it's ability to generate hate, except that was never the question.

I'm addressing the complaint that RUN cant tank ANYTHING in the new content that's been said multiple times and is completely untrue.

I see the problem here, we didn't say it couldn't tank anything hell a WHM could tank the new content with proper support to allow that to work. Is that a good idea? No. The issue is that a RUN can't tank anything better than a DD let alone an Aegis PLD which is what a player thinks of when you hear "magical tank".

And reapplying stoneskin and aquaveil really isn't hard at all. You have flash for when you accidentally let aquaveil drop but remember its -100% SIR for a set number of hits depending on enhancing skill. I get 3 Hits uninterrupted and only get hit 1-2 times during casting so alternating the 2 is completely feasible

Aquaveil does what against stun or knock backs? Nothing.
Flash gives the monster -100~ ACC which sounds awesome until you consider just how much Accuracy those monsters have to make THF/NIN/DNC evasion tanking unappealing let alone RUN evasion tanking.

Assuming you're not in an evasion build (as you mention a PDT build) the monster's accuracy would have to be 378 for flash to floor it to 20%, 437 for flash to drop it to 50%. Obviously I'm over simplifying but considering a player has much more than 437 accuracy naked (besides weapon) what makes you think a monster's accuracy is that bad?

Oh and consistant PDT
ToM Gsword -13%
Twilight Neck -5%
Mollusca Mantle -5%
Flume Belt -4%
Dux Head Body Hands Legs -13%
Thurandaut feet -3%
My crappy dark rings -9%
52% 2% over cap // meaning 7% missing from not having dux+1 and 2x 6 pdt dark rings and a -2% pdt earring (<3 ethereal too much to do 2 pdt earrings) giving you 11% of room to play with some slots

Here's PLD's PDT build:

Defending Ring = 10%
Mekira Meikogai = 8%
Phorcys Schuhs = 5%
Twilight Torque = 5%
TotM Sword = 11%
Dark Ring = 6%
Mollusca Mantle = 5%

Total = -50% PDT and it leaves the head, hands, legs, waste, ears, ammo open for ACC and/or haste (technically this is a build for WAR, PLD, DRK, BST, SAM, DRG if you replace the TotM Sword respectively). I intentionally excluded PLD's emp armor as RUN has none atm before someone tries to call me out on that.

Oh and again I haven't even factored in the 65% block rate with a size 5 shield. Hell even an AH shield would offer more to physical damage reduction than Inquartata.

[Yinnyth]

And what do you mean spike damage of a whole 20hp.

I mean blaze spikes, ice spikes, etc. If you use liement because the enemy is casting flare II, then you hit the enemy and take spikes damage, liement will absorb the blaze spikes damage and wear off. Your comment was a reminder that liement works on powerful TP moves, mine was that it can fizzle in certain situations.

[Archaea]

As far as reapplying buffs goes. That,s where the aspect of a reactionary job comes into play.. VS knockback you ideally pin yourself against a wall if that's not available you obviously wait until after the knockback or swap gear just before the knockback move happens Causing you to not get knocked back. When stun is a concern you wait until after its happened of course. If it happens because its the spell or magic based tp move that doesn't take away from your remaining aquaveil hits.

I mentioned a Dring but i left it out of the build if you didn't notice as we all know obtaining one is LOLrific I should have refered to the exact itms instead of saying "or something" however so that is my fault. Minervas Ring Twilight Torque 1 Merman earring. MDB is every other available slot

By the way that's full time before you bring up Valiance. If Valiance could be full timed that would be a different story as that should always actually be better (assuming only 1 element is used by the monster) than an Aegis 99 PLD's reduction but it isn't full time its 3/5 minutes.

Valliance and Vallation do the same thing One is a 3 Minute timer lasts 2 mins and is self only. One is a 5 Minute timer lasts 3 mins and is multitarget. So... wheres the not being able to fulltime come in? Then again my fault for assuming someone would think to alternate them.

You're right not even a PLD is going to hold hate off the DDs once they're brought in to kill this NM however a PLD will hold it much better than a RUN would while trying to remove it's PDT. Also those DDs give up much less than a RUN does when using a hybrid PDT/Haste build.

In every situation where ive tanked alongside a PLD I held hate the majority of the time. Best tell ive gotten from a PLD went along the lines of "Let me know if you need me to do anything LOL"

Now for the quotes addressing "We havent said anything about XXX"

Complete Inability to tank:

This is the only thing bugging me right now about RUN. GEO can do it's job successfully in and out of Adoulin, and even on the hardest of delve mobs. Yet GEO is getting lots of info about forthcoming updates to fix it. The good news is that the JPs are also complaining about RUN's inability to tank anything in Adoulin, so there's a good chance of a fix in the works.

Hate control:

Where are you getting this consistant 50% PDT from, and how do you hold hate if you TP in it?

I did not bring it up first. I brought it up due to this remark.

Hold one or two delve NM's during a standard plasm run, or the minions spawned by high tier voidwatch NMs, then come back and tell us about your success.

Sadly holding 2 i'snt gonna happen due to the nature of (and in my opinion its biggest weakness) spell interrupts. Holding 1 NM however is pretty darn easy

[Yinnyth]

This whole thread is regarding the fact that Aegis makes PLD a better magical tank than RUN. Any sub-arguments, incredulous remarks, or replies of disbelief towards your claims, Archaea, are most likely being made to help support that primary concern.

If all you're addressing is the hyperbole that RUN can't tank anything, allow me to remedy the comments already made and any future comments made by saying that they mean RUN can't tank well enough to justify using them over some other job which could put out better damage or offer better survivability and enmity control.

[Archaea]

And this is the response I'll accept. But give it a day or 2 and its just gonna derail again. The enmity control part is still a bit questionable to me tho since PLDs only avenue to generate CE is damage. :P

/bow