Overall Battle System Adjustments for the Future

[ManaKing]

SO there hasn't been any mention of new SP abilities for quite some time now. I was wondering if they were almost done or if they are getting delayed?

ALSO RDM SP2 for enfeebling is still undesired while an SP that we will basically use to get improved Haste and Phallanx 2 for partys would be appreciated. Please go back to your original design.

[FrankReynolds]

I've tried thinking of a way in which they could successfully replace PDT as a mechanic for encouraging players to use the more complex and less practiced magic system as opposed to the much simpler melee system, but I'm drawing a blank. If causing enemies to take less damage from melee attacks is the lazy way to encourage magic usage, what is a better-thought out method?

Hmmm. They could increase magic damage taken dramatically instead of lowering physical damage. Or, they could increase NM HP dramatically so that Zergs are no longer fast enough to kill them before they go all buck nutty. That would of course mean that they would have to weaken those Insta-death moves that they are so fond of, so that people could actually survive a longer fight. They could also increase the amount of damage that magic does in general. The changes they are making are a good start. To be honest though, we probably shouldn't talk about any ideas that would be better. The dev Bros seem to really feel a need to be unique snow flakes. Mentioning something on these forums is like a guarantee that they will do something different instead just to be original.

I apologize for not being more clear on this topic. For now I'll put aside the fact that you don't see the connection between the rise of the melee zerg and the decline of the use of magical damage. My point was that although it is not the only factor involved, the special properties of the Twilight Scythe make it a contributing factor for why melees are generally chosen. Even enemies who are given PDT in order to hinder melee zerging can still be melee zerged by drks.

Melee are generally chosen because:

* Magic Damage is unreliable
* Bouncing hate amongst Mages makes for a super dangerous fight
* Melee DD are not as squishy as mages
* Melee have much higher HP and can thus survive longer without cures and or survive bigger hits
* Events have time limits that force people to use the fastest method only
* NMs have stupid death moves that make long fights unsurvivable
* Many Non-time-restricted fights have drop rates so low that they are only worth it if you can repeat them quickly
* Magic damage is too slow
* Magic damage cannot be buffed to high heaven like melee damage
* MP Is finite. Swinging a stick/sword/axe etc. costs nothing.

There are probably a thousand other reasons and Twilight Scythe is probably at the bottom somewhere.

[Byrth]

Melee are generally chosen because:

* Magic Damage is unreliable
* Bouncing hate amongst Mages makes for a super dangerous fight
* Melee DD are not as squishy as mages
* Melee have much higher HP and can thus survive longer without cures and or survive bigger hits
* Magic damage is too slow
* Magic damage cannot be buffed to high heaven like melee damage
* MP Is finite. Swinging a stick/sword/axe etc. costs nothing.

There are probably a thousand other reasons and Twilight Scythe is probably at the bottom somewhere.

I've underlined the criticisms of magic damage that aren't really valid. Mages are actually more durable than melee in my experience because they can wear 50% PDT almost all the time (no need for TP gear), generally have access to Blink/Stoneskin, etc. Defense hardly matters, so their lack of it is unimportant. Manawall makes BLM the least-one-shottable job in the game. Back before people really figured out how to do Voidwatch, I know I ended up holding quite a few VWNMs on my BLM/RDM between Manawall and temps and it sure wasn't because the derpy support suddenly got good enough to keep people alive.

The ones that I deleted could be summarized by the one I bolded, which is the real issue with magic damage as I see it. If the outlined changes or implemented, magic DPS is going to increase a lot.

The final two underlined issues run contrary to one another. The way you buff magic damage isn't through a +11 MAB Dream Shroud, it's through Evoker's Roll, Refresh II, and Ballads. The reason you buff magic damage this way is because MP is finite (as you say). It's not really a weakness of the damage type, but rather is the way the damage type is limited. If having buffs lets you chain nuke constantly instead of resting half the time, then buffs increased your DPS by a factor of 2. That's less than melee's factor of 5 with Haste, but it's still something. If SE implements their outlined changes, this weakness will be alleviated somewhat but mage jobs will also get less durable. I don't know how it will shake out for final usage.

[Yinnyth]

Hmmm. They could increase magic damage taken dramatically instead of lowering physical damage.

This is functionally the same change as giving enemies PDT, except that they'd also have to adjust enemy HP to be higher to maintain a battle of roughly the same duration.

Or, they could increase NM HP dramatically so that Zergs are no longer fast enough to kill them before they go all buck nutty. That would of course mean that they would have to weaken those Insta-death moves that they are so fond of, so that people could actually survive a longer fight.

So a fight against an enemy with 1 billion HP, but he lacks the ability to one-shot. Yeah, I'd still choose melee damage instead. Even though you can't zerg him all the way to death, anything that deals damage is eventually going to cap out enmity on a fight that long, and I don't want him running around after ranged damage. Heck, I'd even zerg the fight as much as I possibly could, just to put a large dent in him as early as possible.

They could also increase the amount of damage that magic does in general. The changes they are making are a good start.

This is the simplest, and best first-step to be taking, imo, and I am very glad it is something that SE is looking into. On its own, however, I doubt it will be enough.

[FrankReynolds]

I've underlined the criticisms of magic damage that aren't really valid. Mages are actually more durable than melee in my experience because they can wear 50% PDT almost all the time (no need for TP gear), generally have access to Blink/Stoneskin, etc. Defense hardly matters, so their lack of it is unimportant. Manawall makes BLM the least-one-shottable job in the game. Back before people really figured out how to do Voidwatch, I know I ended up holding quite a few VWNMs on my BLM/RDM between Manawall and temps and it sure wasn't because the derpy support suddenly got good enough to keep people alive.

The ones that I deleted could be summarized by the one I bolded, which is the real issue with magic damage as I see it. If the outlined changes or implemented, magic DPS is going to increase a lot.

The final two underlined issues run contrary to one another. The way you buff magic damage isn't through a +11 MAB Dream Shroud, it's through Evoker's Roll, Refresh II, and Ballads. The reason you buff magic damage this way is because MP is finite (as you say). It's not really a weakness of the damage type, but rather is the way the damage type is limited. If having buffs lets you chain nuke constantly instead of resting half the time, then buffs increased your DPS by a factor of 2. That's less than melee's factor of 5 with Haste, but it's still something. If SE implements their outlined changes, this weakness will be alleviated somewhat but mage jobs will also get less durable. I don't know how it will shake out for final usage.

I don't wanna pick all that apart, but a few points:

When I say Melee characters are not as squishy as mages, what I mean is that melees can both do damage and take damage at a high rate without stopping. BLMs have to stop doing damage almost entirely to use manawall, rock all that -DT gear and keep up those buffs. Melee characters just whack away as if the damage never happened. They have plenty of HP, so back liners have plenty of time to heal them.

Refresh only counts as a boost to damage if the fight actually last long enough to need the MP. Almost every relevant event is chiefly concerned with damage speed. Not duration. Mages can't keep up the damage. As soon as stoneskin / blink is down, they pretty much have to hit pause on doing damage. In a zerg, spells will get interrupted, melee swings / WS will not. In a timed event like NNI or Legion etc. what are they going to do? If they get hit, they have to reapply buffs to keep nukes from getting interrupted.


Kinda getting off track. The point was that Zergs didn't start happening because of melees being better damage dealers. Zergs started happening because that was the fastest / safest way to win. Nerfing this scythe won't change that. To change that, the fights have to be adjusted.

If SE wants magic damage to be more relevant, they need to make mages better damage dealers, because that's all that really matters until they fix emnity and tanking and adjust the fights themselves to cater to more than just 2hr/temp item /WS spamming.

I know it's asking a lot, but it's what we pay for right?

This is functionally the same change as giving enemies PDT, except that they'd also have to adjust enemy HP to be higher to maintain a battle of roughly the same duration.

Except that melees can not use weapons / abilities to change this. Magic will always do better damage in this situation. Which means they can leave the scythe how it is without ruining all future battle scenarios.

So a fight against an enemy with 1 billion HP, but he lacks the ability to one-shot. Yeah, I'd still choose melee damage instead.

You can't have anything but zergs until you up the HP enough to make the fights last. This has nothing to do with which form of damage is better.

The idea would be to make NMs that can do consistent damage to your ally so that your healers actually burn through the MP pool if people don't manage hate and damage taken well enough. Meaning that those DDs everyone loves so much might actually have to slow down damage to keep from getting their faces eaten. In this case, having back line damage dealers can be a boon. Especially ones that can avoid taking AOE damage / debuffs and shed some hate from time to time.

[saevel]

SO there hasn't been any mention of new SP abilities for quite some time now. I was wondering if they were almost done or if they are getting delayed?

ALSO RDM SP2 for enfeebling is still undesired while an SP that we will basically use to get improved Haste and Phallanx 2 for partys would be appreciated. Please go back to your original design.

Their hoping we forget about it so they can add it in a later adjustment, probably part of SOA or right after. They won't mention anything about RDM's 60m Elemental Seal -1 and put it in anyway.

To the rest, Magic will never ~EVER~ be anywhere close to melee damage until SE makes nukes cast much faster. The single biggest issue with magic damage is it simply takes too long to do. And while there are those using a certain third party application to cast in one sec then switch to another right before the damage is done, you can't base the battle system around that. Get nukes down to the point where a mage can be slapping them down non-stop and then we can talk about magic damage being remotely comparable to melee damage.

[Yinnyth]

To the rest, Magic will never ~EVER~ be anywhere close to melee damage until SE makes nukes cast much faster. The single biggest issue with magic damage is it simply takes too long to do.

I disagree. There are several ways to make magic damage worthwhile without touching casting times. If, for example, they boosted the damage nukes do by 300%, everyone would start using blms regardless of the cast times. That's taking things a little too far, but you get the point.

I don't think the casting times should be adjusted downwards too much. Doing so would decrease the usefulness of fast cast, quick magic, and chainspell. It is also my belief that long cast times are a fundamental game mechanic. Having all nukes cast instantly would feel as wrong as having all melees capable of meleeing from halfway across the zone.

[saevel]

I disagree. There are several ways to make magic damage worthwhile without touching casting times. If, for example, they boosted the damage nukes do by 300%, everyone would start using blms regardless of the cast times. That's taking things a little too far, but you get the point.

I don't think the casting times should be adjusted downwards too much. Doing so would decrease the usefulness of fast cast, quick magic, and chainspell. It is also my belief that long cast times are a fundamental game mechanic. Having all nukes cast instantly would feel as wrong as having all melees capable of meleeing from halfway across the zone.

Increasing their damage by 300% won't matter, it's still not enough by a long shot. Someone above already pointed out that a BLM's (SCH & RDM) damage shuts down when they get the monsters attention. This forces them to stay under the 10,000 CE threshold (they would have LONG since capped VE). Do you want to know how long it takes me to hit 10,000 CE? About 20s if not superbuffed, much much less if I'm getting march's. Once I'm at that 10,000 CE I have zero problems with the monster smacking me, I have a DT set if things get serious but otherwise I just keep hitting it, and hitting it, and hitting it harder until it stops twitching. A BLM doesn't have that luxury.

That is why nukes need to be made much faster and SE has already noticed this. Why do you think their considering making the cast times on T2's and T3's that much lower? So that nukers can spam them nonstop as a form of magic DPS. Higher tiers are reserved for initial strikes or when you have time to concentrate it, otherwise you'll be spamming your nuke macro just like RNG's spam their RA macro.

Also cutting casting times does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to the usefulness of FC. Reading that made my head hurt, it's like trying to say lowering a weapons delay reduces the usefulness of haste, you can't possibly be that clueless on damage mechanics. Reducing the cast times of a 4s spell by 50% has the exact same effect as reducing the cast times of a 60s spell by 50%. Both result in a 100% increase in spell casting speed. Which leads into the other part of SE's proposed changes, making it so that thunder and ice aren't the only powerful nukes so that when their recast is down you can still cycle to the others instead of waiting. BLM's will be cycling three different elements while depleting their MP supply like rangers deplete their ammo. In this way refresh / MP effects will act as DPS buffs by enhancing the speed of their damage recovery. They still won't be as powerful as melee but it's better then "proc only" like we are now.

I've said it before, I've played many different MMOs and amongst those have played magic DPS class's. None of them cast FFXI slow. The slowest attacks are a few seconds with long cooldowns.

[Yinnyth]

Increasing their damage by 300% won't matter, it's still not enough by a long shot. Someone above already pointed out that a BLM's (SCH & RDM) damage shuts down when they get the monsters attention. This forces them to stay under the 10,000 CE threshold (they would have LONG since capped VE).

That is a problem with the enmity system, which also needs fixing and also will be a problem with your proposed change of vastly reduced casting times. BLMs will still pull hate with faster magic, then suddenly they're tanking or kiting. If they're kiting, they briefly stop everyone's damage. If they're tanking, they're also in range of those annoying AoEs which can silence, paralyze, plague, stun, terror, etc. In some battle situations, I suppose it might be ok to put your blm up there on the front line and spam nukes, but in most they'd do better from far away.

That is why nukes need to be made much faster and SE has already noticed this. Why do you think their considering making the cast times on T2's and T3's that much lower?

So DRKs might consider spending the time casting one every now and then. Also, at low levels, people frequently have to solo or duo now, and it'd help BLMs through the grind a bit. Also, as you later mentioned, it will likely become the bread and butter for mages to do low damage frequently instead of large damage spikes. This is different from ALL magic casting very quickly, however.

Also cutting casting times does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to the usefulness of FC. Reading that made my head hurt, it's like trying to say lowering a weapons delay reduces the usefulness of haste, you can't possibly be that clueless on damage mechanics.

Only if every time you successfully swing your weapon, it animation locks your character for 2 seconds before you can swing again. Fast cast doesn't even touch the animation lock. The faster a spell is, the less useful fast cast becomes for it.

I've said it before, I've played many different MMOs and amongst those have played magic DPS class's. None of them cast FFXI slow. The slowest attacks are a few seconds with long cooldowns.

I've played some too. I didn't like them. That was one reason why: mages didn't feel magey. Also, just because other MMOs do it doesn't mean it's right for FFXI.

I'm not saying faster spells couldn't make magic more useful, I'm just saying:
1. It's not the only way they could fix magic
2. It's not the way I want them to fix magic

[saevel]

The stupid is strong here. Now I remember why I had him on ignore, back you go.