SoA content for ALL 20 jobs...

[Kincard]

we're at a point where every single job must be the exact same or you get some being selected over others

Are you seriously not seeing the difference between "Make classes identical" and "Make it so that a more popular job isn't doing 50% more DPS than a less popular one"?

You're making a serious straw man argument here. It isn't annoying because it isn't perfect. It's annoying because it truly is horribly balanced.

[saevel]

A very poor target to use is high level endgame monsters, which are pretty much the only place people care about your damage output enough to bar people? Uh huh. Are you actually going somewhere with that point, or are you just being picky for the sake of being picky? You even yourself point out that it's a flawed system so I'm not even sure what you're trying to say- my exact goal was to prove that it's a flawed system.

If I was to heavily push things in favor of the NIN by giving them 0 buffs aside from white magic haste against a target like a DC Nightmare monster, those same characters would be doing:

Shamash WAR: 234.354 DPS
Kannagi NIN: 307.998 DPS

Hurray, the NIN is winning right? Oh wait, I forgot, I gave the Warrior a mediocre weapon. Let's try giving him a Ukonvasara 99 instead:

Ukon WAR: 303.969 DPS

Well dang, that sure killed that whole "one handers greatly win in low buffs" myth pretty quickly.

Where the hell did I say that? I only mentioned that 1H can outpace 2H when the target is EM~T. You can stack on multiple buffs and the 1H stays slightly ahead due to how fSTR works when combined with DW. That changes when you approach capped haste though, so toss in a SV march BRD or embrava and the 2H jumps ahead. This is due to the delay floor being 20% and the advantage from DW goes away once you hit that.

High end targets are a bad comparison because right now only three jobs can deal reasonable amounts of damage to them. WAR, DRK and SAM are you only real choices and only with specific setups. If a DRG has a mythic then they can get on that list. Those fights cater specifically to high DPS jobs as we pile on insane amounts of buffs and send them off with infinite fanatics spam or SCH stun locking / PD (if used). Horribly unbalanced content that SE expected us to lose to repeatedly.

The point is to illustrate how your complaining about the damage formula without understanding why it's the way it is. Making demands without understanding that ends up being rather childish (mommy why can't I have a pony for christmas!). Prior to the 2H update the 1H DW peeps were crushing everyone. I was there when WAR's and DRK's would go /NIN and use Axe's. The damage formula heavily favors fast hitting weapons due to the nature of fSTR. The change in the Ratio caps was done to balance out 1H and 2H damage, and it did exactly that. What SE failed to realize was that the players would take it to the extreme and seek to exploit the 12.5% higher cap for 2H's on targets with higher LCF.

2.25 vs 2.0 isn't much of a difference. 1.7 vs 1.45 (level 110 monster) is a bit more and the biggest crotch kicker is 1.2 vs 0.95 (level 120 monster). The solution isn't to rearrange the damage formula which will almost certainly result in an overall nerf to 2H instead of a boost to 1H (remember we weren't supposed to be killing those NM's anyway). It's to stop making level 120 NMs for us to fight.

[Caketime]

We should just stop complaining, build Rags and level WAR. Maybe then the devs will nerf it in the hopes that we'll use the "snowflakes".

[saevel]

Are you seriously not seeing the difference between "Make classes identical" and "Make it so that a more popular job isn't doing 50% more DPS than a less popular one"?

You're making a serious straw man argument here. It isn't annoying because it isn't perfect. It's annoying because it truly is horribly balanced.

People are demanding that SE create content that "values" all 20 (soon 22) jobs without resorting to "gimmicks" like weakness procs. That is impossible unless all jobs of a given category are functionally equal. I have several examples of events starting with six players and going down to two ~ three players (with a dual box or two). Nothing is stopping you from doing events with slightly larger groups so that you can bring your PUP or RDM along. Of course you won't do it because like those you lambast you too are greedy and want maximum loot. There option is there whether you take it or not.

[Kincard]

The point is to illustrate how your complaining about the damage formula without understanding why it's the way it is.

Hurr durr:

1. Ratio handicap on 1Hers

That includes level correction penalties on ratio. You're just being hostile for no reason. Get over yourself.

Nothing is stopping you from doing events with slightly larger groups so that you can bring your PUP or RDM along.

Are you just being dense on purpose? If I need to bring a larger group because a specific job is dead weight then obviously there's a balance problem.

I'm not even sure what your point is. You're basically agreeing that the game is horribly balanced, but you come in here being combative against people you technically agree with because you feel the need to white knight the dev team. Hate to break it to you, but these forums were created for the specific purpose of discussing flaws of the game in the hopes that they can be fixed in some way.

[Alhanelem]

Wow did 5 ppl really post in the time it took for me to write that? grrr i hate when I get stuck at the end of a page...

That is impossible unless all jobs of a given category are functionally equal.

No. You don't get it. Jobs don't have to be 100% identical/equal to be valued. We're not asking for perfection, we're asking for reasonable effort in balance. right now the game isn't even close to being within the realm of remotely balanced.

[saevel]

We should just stop complaining, build Rags and level WAR. Maybe then the devs will nerf it in the hopes that we'll use the "snowflakes".

Strawman, there are several jobs that are viable. There are only a few that are viable in every situation and these predictably are the specialist jobs. The specialist healer (WHM), the specialist DD's (WAR/DRK/SAM/MNK) and the specialist buffers (BRD). THF gets a special mention as it's the "get moar loot" specialist. Outside of that many jobs will fit in based on different situations, and there is were we have the sticking point. People want to play their chosen job on all content, which is impossible with 20(22) jobs. I tend to use my BLU over 99 Rag WAR in Salvage II as we already have a pure DD (the MNK) and the additional utility of the BLU outweighs the additional damage I would get from being a pure DD. In a similar situation someone soloing or douing something large and dangerous might want to bring that same PUP or BST that was earlier not allowed into the voidwatch shout. Those jobs while having less damage output then the specialist's have pets which can aid in tanking and overall survivability. Same with the previously mentioned Kanagi NIN. A specialist DD may have more damage potential but the NIN will stay alive longer and has better defensive abilities, there are situations where you want those defensive abilities and can afford to sacrifice potential damage output.


Everyone here is taking an incredibly narrow point of view that the only thing that matters is potential damage output. This is only true in a few events, problem being that SE seems to have preferred these events for the last year or so and thus anyone not a DD specialist was left on the side. Prior to that was Abyssea, an event that potential damage output was largely ignored and the only thing that mattered was getting procs for "moar loot". Proc jobs became favored, WAR's were wanted for their diverse skills not their damage output.

[Kincard]

In old-style MMOs like this, it'll ultimately still break down to how well your job fills in one of the roles of the holy trinity (Well, I guess a fourth is support so CORs and BRDs get some piece of the pie). That is what needs to be fixed, IMO. The easiest role to fill (and the one you need most of anyway) is DPS. Like I said earlier, you need to look at the utility function (TH, Proccing, etc) as separate entities to core gameplay roles (Tank, DPS, Heal). As long as a job can fill one of these roles very well, it'll basically be acceptable (not best) in any large-scale event. After all, people arn't picky in DRK vs WAR. Nobody takes WARs to Legion so they can Fell Cleave and nobody takes DRKs to Legion so they can dread spikes.

This is why I think equalizing DPS across many classes isn't really a bad thing, because you can still have unique utilities between jobs, but you won't have a situation where you have filled in all your required utility slots and you go, "Well, we need a generic DPS job, now we have to pick one of the three jobs out of 22 that can actually fill that 'generic' role."

[saevel]

Hurr durr:



That includes level correction penalties on ratio. You're just being hostile for no reason. Get over yourself.



Are you just being dense on purpose? If I need to bring a larger group because a specific job is dead weight then obviously there's a balance problem.

I'm not even sure what your point is. You're basically agreeing that the game is horribly balanced, but you come in here being combative against people you technically agree with because you feel the need to white knight the dev team. Hate to break it to you, but these forums were created for the specific purpose of discussing flaws of the game in the hopes that they can be fixed in some way.

I broke your argument down (along with others) and now you guys just pissed. Your basically asking SE to "bring PUP's to Legion" which would require that damage output be no longer a factor. At that point it's no longer FFXI and some flash based web FTP MMO. As long as your fighting level 120 NMs then you will be using the highest damage jobs available to you, even if the damage lead is only 10~20%.

My point is to illustrate the incredible childishness that people are demonstrating. You essentially asking for the impossible (make all 22 jobs relevant) then getting angry when that impossibility doesn't happen. It sounds awfully lot like the grade school kid demanding a pony for Christmas

[Kincard]

I broke your argument down (along with others) and now you guys just pissed.

Misinterpreting an argument and breaking it down are two very different things, unfortunately for you. You still haven't explained in the least why this is "impossible" other than just stating it ad nauseum. If you are going to continue to make thinly veiled ad hominem attacks instead of making actual points like the actual child here, then I think we're done.

(By the way, awesome use of the 'u mad' argument, clearly you are putting your intellect on full display)

you will be using the highest damage jobs available to you, even if the damage lead is only 10~20%

If people seriously cared that much they would bar Ukon WARs from Legion and demand to take only Ragnarok WARs instead (~5% difference, decently large).