SoA content for ALL 20 jobs...

[Afania]

You're missing the point. All jobs should be valued in a balanced manner. there shouldn't even BE "mainstream" and non-mainstream jobs. That person who wants to do voidwatch in PUP should be able to particpate in it and do a perfectly fine job- not because someone feels sorry and wants to invite someone who isn't "mainstream," but because they are actually effective enough to contribute. The whole point of this thread is that all jobs should be wanted- not just have 5 that are "mainstream" and the rest used only as filler.

Nobody stops you from inviting a PUP to VW, and it is effective enough on things like T3. BUT if you put a PUP v.s another WAR or DRK, WAR or DRK probably gonna parse higher.

And unless they make PUP and WAR DRK have identical DPS(which isn't possbile), the one parse highest will get invite. The reason why X job doesn't get invite over Y job, is mostly because using Y job makes the mob die a bit faster. That's why job balance will never be adjusted, there's always someone stay at the top, someone falls behind. Some jobs don't get invited, is the result of min-maxing and human nature(you want more efficent event) to begin with.

[Alhanelem]

Nobody stops you from inviting a PUP to VW, and it is effective enough on things like T3. BUT if you put a PUP v.s another WAR or DRK, WAR or DRK probably gonna parse higher.

That's not in dispute, but people shouldn't refuse to invite them and regard them as trash just because someone else can parse better numbers. If you can beat the NM and get the job done and it doesn't have a drastic impact on the time it takes then there isn't any reason not to let a ready and able competent player skilled in his job play.

Parses can suck a *$&%. In the end, voidwatch is *somewhat* friendly to letting all jobs play because the more people that participate the more loot is generated (unlike most content where people play with as few people as possible because they don't want to have to share the loot)- which is Voidwatch's one saving grace for me personally.

That's why job balance will never be adjusted, there's always someone stay at the top, someone falls behind.

This is only partially true. Yes, there will always be a best and worst. The key to good balance is to minimize the difference without simultaneously taking away from what makes each one unique. You can balance jobs to the point where the difference isn't enough for most people to notice, then you can invite any of those jobs, because as long as theyre playing their job correctly, it won't matter much which one you choose, they will all be capable of contributing.

[Kincard]

A lot of people don't seem to understand what is being asked for isn't for jobs to have identical damage, and say that's impossible. Uh, yeah, we know that. Look at almost any other MMO on the market with proper balance, they usually have tons of different classes for Tank/DPS/Heal as well, but in the ones that are well balanced if your only goal is to get someone to fill a generic role, it won't matter which one of the classes you get because the differences are small. This is why the people that seem to insist that it's somehow impossible to balance classes in terms of damage are either lacking in imagination or intelligence.

If, on the other hand, you are looking for a specific ability, you would look for one class in particular.

This is how XI's class balance should be considered. If I want a DPS class in general, it shouldn't matter if I want a WAR, DRK, SAM, PUP, DRG or THF. If on, the other hand, I want to debuff the monster's AGI to increase the party's crit rate, I would get a DRK. If I want someone who can debuff dragons, I'd get a DRG, or I'd get a WAR if I expect to run into many crowds of monsters that can be easily group-tanked. This isn't that hard of a concept to grasp. Jobs do not lose all unique function just because things can deal the close to the same amount of damage as them.

Yes, there will always be people who will want the absolute best DPS in any situation. That has absolutely nothing to do with the conversation, because the problem isn't that these jobs arn't the best, it's that they don't even function tolerably as these roles at all.

[Afania]

That's not in dispute, but people shouldn't refuse to invite them and regard them as trash just because someone else can parse better numbers. If you can beat the NM and get the job done and it doesn't have a drastic impact on the time it takes then there isn't any reason not to let a ready and able competent player skilled in his job play.

Parses can suck a *$&%. In the end, voidwatch is *somewhat* friendly to letting all jobs play because the more people that participate the more loot is generated (unlike most content where people play with as few people as possible because they don't want to have to share the loot)- which is Voidwatch's one saving grace for me personally.

Since you don't care about the minor difference in killing speed, why don't you invite a PUP already? PUP is completely capable of getting VW done just fine. The only difference is killing speed, which you don't care. So what's so need fix about job balance when you don't care about the kill speed already?

[Caketime]

Since you don't care about the minor difference in killing speed, why don't you invite a PUP already? PUP is completely capable of getting VW done just fine. The only difference is killing speed, which you don't care. So what's so need fix about job balance when you don't care about the kill speed already?

He already said that wasn't the point. Hurr durr.

[Ramaza]

That's not in dispute, but people shouldn't refuse to invite them and regard them as trash just because someone else can parse better numbers. If you can beat the NM and get the job done and it doesn't have a drastic impact on the time it takes then there isn't any reason not to let a ready and able competent player skilled in his job play.

Parses can suck a *$&%. In the end, voidwatch is *somewhat* friendly to letting all jobs play because the more people that participate the more loot is generated (unlike most content where people play with as few people as possible because they don't want to have to share the loot)- which is Voidwatch's one saving grace for me personally.

This is only partially true. Yes, there will always be a best and worst. The key to good balance is to minimize the difference without simultaneously taking away from what makes each one unique. You can balance jobs to the point where the difference isn't enough for most people to notice, then you can invite any of those jobs, because as long as theyre playing their job correctly, it won't matter much which one you choose, they will all be capable of contributing.

Just to add on to this it also wouldn't hurt if these "proc" systems they've become so fond of were more inclusive, instead of exclusive. Jobs like RDM, who have nothing unique to them to proc with, and THFs who can't compete with the mainstream jobs have a hard time earning place in a Voidwatchter alliance because of this.

[Babekeke]

SoA content for ALL 20 jobs...

So, which 2 are you excluding? o.0


As for inviting jobs for VW, I'm more than happy to invite anyone on any job whether they have a r/m/e or not, as long as there's a nice even spread of jobs to cover most procs.

9 times out of 10, the proc party gets all the magic procs required to cap red and keep the fanatics flowing, but 1/10 this doesn't happen, and this is when the 'average' player is generally better than the e-peen 99 r/m/e war/drk/sam. The reason being, the average player sees 'H2H 5' in his chat log and switches to H2H (if on a job that wasn't mnk or pup) and shouts out the procs he/she can do and has done.

Mr E-peen on the other hand is spamming tachi: shoha/resolution/ukko's fury and doesn't even realise that red is only on 150. Eventually realising something is wrong, they start shouting 'no more temps, I need cures!' until either they die, or the mob dies. I've seen this more times than I care to remember, and after the fight the reason is usually "I can't see what procs are because I have no filters on so that I can parse".

If only the parse had a menu for who was the biggest idiot in that fight

So yeah, I'm not saying everyone with a pimped out DD job is like that, but certainly the people with less-well geared jobs tend to proc more so that they feel like they're doing something. I even started asking ukon wars if they have all their other weapons available to proc, should we need it, and I'll kick them if they don't own an axe.

[Afania]

So, which 2 are you excluding? o.0


As for inviting jobs for VW, I'm more than happy to invite anyone on any job whether they have a r/m/e or not, as long as there's a nice even spread of jobs to cover most procs.

9 times out of 10, the proc party gets all the magic procs required to cap red and keep the fanatics flowing, but 1/10 this doesn't happen, and this is when the 'average' player is generally better than the e-peen 99 r/m/e war/drk/sam. The reason being, the average player sees 'H2H 5' in his chat log and switches to H2H (if on a job that wasn't mnk or pup) and shouts out the procs he/she can do and has done.

Mr E-peen on the other hand is spamming tachi: shoha/resolution/ukko's fury and doesn't even realise that red is only on 150. Eventually realising something is wrong, they start shouting 'no more temps, I need cures!' until either they die, or the mob dies. I've seen this more times than I care to remember, and after the fight the reason is usually "I can't see what procs are because I have no filters on so that I can parse".

If only the parse had a menu for who was the biggest idiot in that fight

So yeah, I'm not saying everyone with a pimped out DD job is like that, but certainly the people with less-well geared jobs tend to proc more so that they feel like they're doing something. I even started asking ukon wars if they have all their other weapons available to proc, should we need it, and I'll kick them if they don't own an axe.

It seems that you're biased toward parsing, and I can't help but to clarify a couple of points a bit. Although not sure if this is legit discussion on official forum(I don't use 3rd pt tool myself, but many ppl I know that does use it so I guess I know a little bit about it)

1. Proc> dealing dmg?
Yes and no. Generally all VW, including higher tier one, should be dead in less than 2 min. If the fight last longer than 3 min, that's usually the main reason why VW pt wipe or ppl die.

I'm not saying proc isn't important, it is. But generally you only need 1~2 HQ/EV to cap red. If you need more than 1~2 proc, then your pt is killing too slow, and shouldn't sacrifice dmg for proc. Thus you shouldn't proc if you see mob HP at 5% and fana still have 30 sec left, and shouldn't sacrifice output to do NQ proc. The longer you kill a mob, the more proc you need, thus ideally you should lower the proc you need by killing faster.

The only VW that may have proc problem is T3, since they often die too fast, especially Akvan thanks to magic barrier if you didn't try to stun it. Everything else it's hard to imagine sacrifice dmg for proc is a good idea considering majority of PUG still takes longer than 3 min to kill T6+ prov NM.

Also, it is completely correct that lesser geared DDs focus on proc while strongest DD keep dealing dmg. If you ask stronger/better geared DD to work on proc or even NQ proc, you're just prolonging the fight for no reason.

2. If you parse you can't see /p chat?
You should be able to, but again it's not something we should talk about on official forum XD Just go watch other ppl's youtube video and you'll see.


3. "If only the parse had a menu for who was the biggest idiot in that fight"

If you really parse, and if you really study parse result carefully, you can see who is the idiot, and vice versa: How do you know if a player is performing properly if you don't parse and have filter on?

Parse shows all the WS they do, the items they use, the acc they have, the magic they cast, so if your WAR only do 4 WS entire fight everyone else do 15, you know your WAR is slacking. If you see your WAR have 50% acc when everyone else at 95%, you know your WAR isn't skilled(thus unable to proc well too) If you see your WAR only uses Ukko and not procing, or only do all proc but not using any dmg WS, then you know you shouldn't invite him(a good WAR knows when to proc, when not to proc, instead of just DD and don't proc, nor just do proc and don't DD)

It is exactly the opposite, parse gives more clear info regarding your pt member's performance compare with eyeball.

[Babekeke]

#1. I don't parse. I see no benefit from it, especially since I'm usually BLM or BRD in VW anyway.

#2 if you re-read what I posted above, you'll see that I was saying 90% of the time, the procs flow, and so does the damage, and the fight is easy.

HOWEVER: on occasion, you see shit like EV axe ws, Automation 3, pet ability 3, ice avatar 3, nin dark 3 (on a mob immune to dark enfeebs >.>). In this situation you'll have to agree, that you need that EV axe proc, and no amount of ukko's furys is going to help to cap red if you don't get it. (I'm assuming no smn bst or pup in the group, of course)

[Vyvian]

I think the reason why the system isn't as balanced as people would like is that it's doing exactly what it was intended to. This isn't like WoW where once you picked a job that character is stuck on it forever and you have to reroll, necessitating some kind of "balance" between the matching class roles. If PUP is bad for legion, don't go PUP, seems to be the dev mentality.

The natural response to this is, "well WAR is useful for everything", or "but PUP isn't ever wanted." I think the problem with this statement is people tend to filter out everything that isn't endgame events, and I don't think the dev team thinks this way. PUPs and BSTs can solo things, DNC has great utility in lowman, I wouldn't want to bring WAR to a duo dynamis, some people may and that's perfectly fine, but to me that just sounds like a pain.

Since they haven't done anything to balance their jobs for the last 8 years, I'm pretty confident that their opinion is if you think the job you are playing is not useful, level a new job or do something else.

Endgame events are generally done with a larger scale of people, so it makes far more sense to use "extremes" and balance out the setup by assigning different roles, then to use lukewarm jobs and potentially have 1 or more areas lacking at the end of the day.