SoA content for ALL 20 jobs...

[Alhanelem]

You used VW as example, why don't you use other example that ppl do take THF, which is pretty much everything else that's not VW(including legion, salvage2, meeble, dyna and so on).

except that the only reason ppl take thf to other events is the same reason nobody takes them to VW- treasure hunter. when was the last time you said "oh, we really need a thf for this fight?" THF needs more survival skills... idk, maybe if you could avoid certain kinds of special attacks by standing behind somebody (because you're stealthy and hiding you can avoid something)- that would be useful and it would synergize well with trick attack. You'd be able to stay up close more and be able to do more damage while also helping the party.

Kinda off topic, but a random idea. THF really does need a few improvements, just as the other jobs i mentioned.

[Afania]

except that the only reason ppl take thf to other events is the same reason nobody takes them to VW- treasure hunter. when was the last time you said "oh, we really need a thf for this fight?" THF needs more survival skills... idk, maybe if you could avoid certain kinds of special attacks by standing behind somebody (because you're stealthy and hiding you can avoid something)- that would be useful and it would synergize well with trick attack.

That doesn't mean THF's gonna get invited either. FFXI has always been, you invite a job for 1 game changing aspect, or no invite at all. Like how RDM at 75 got invite cuz of refresh(and dead right away once refresh no longer need), THF got invite cuz of TH, RNG got invite cuz of relic WS, SMN got invite cuz of PD etc. And the utility of THF(or insert your job that wants invite here) will need a make or break skill to get into the pt. It is the curse of a job system with 20+ jobs, and there are little that can be fixed, besides lower the gap of every job's output....and even then min-maxer still gonna invite stronger jobs.

[saevel]

With 20 jobs it's simply not possible to have them all equally "useful". Some will be more useful then others, and those that are not on the top of the stack will not get invited unless they build groups with their close friends. RNK and GEO will only worsen this problem further as there is no more room for "DD's", enfeebling is a joke and there is no additional support needed between BRD and SMN. "Tanks" are a joke almost as bad as enfeebling so no love there, and SE has only created one truly useful hybrid *cough* BLU.

Take Salvage II for example. It's really not that hard to do, a party of six can easily get all possible NM's, kill both mega boss's and farm plenty of alexandrite. Six people means you can bring any combination that includes at least one THF, WHM and pure DD leaving room for three PUP, BST, RDM, SMN, DRG, ect. People realize this and instead of bringing six they bring the three required jobs (THF, WHM and Pure DD) and divide the loot three ways instead of six. Some people even go so far as to bring their own mules inside and basically solo / dou the zone so as to divide the loot by an even smaller number.

Abyssea, a party of six could rapidly farm lights, pops and destroy any NM with a wide range of procs available. People rapidly figured out that you could get nearly the same effect with a group of four (WHM BLM THF +other) and end up only dividing the loot by three to four rather then by six. Some people went so far as to bring their own mules for some of those jobs and solo / dou everything to divide the loot up by an even smaller pool.

This is what happens when you have a shared loot system, people want to obtain the maximum loot / reward possible so they'll bring the absolute minimum number of people required to complete the content reliably. The only solution to this is to have an individual loot system, enter voidwatch. That system doesn't penalize you for bringing more people and actually rewards you for bringing a diverse set of jobs. The primary problem with that system was not the loot system itself but the artificially low drop rates and SE refusing to add the option for someone to share their drop with other alliance members.

So taking all that into account, no matter what SE does, players will always seek to maximize loot acquisition rate and will do whatever it takes regardless of what the snowflakes think.

[Kincard]

It is the curse of a job system with 20+ jobs, and there are little that can be fixed, besides lower the gap of every job's output....and even then min-maxer still gonna invite stronger jobs.

You need to realize that physical melee DPS jobs are far easier to fix than mage jobs are at this point. Like I said, people rarely distinguish between the amount of damage a WAR or DRK can put out because the point is that it's enough.

Ultimately most of the large gaps between the jobs come down to a two things:

1. Ratio handicap on 1Hers
2. Job Abilities

First is self-explanatory. The second is that WAR and DRK get things like Berserk and Last Resort respectively, both incredibly powerful damage-boost abilities, while being able to keep Hasso. This puts them ahead of other 2H jobs like DRG/SAM which has to sacrifice large amounts of attack to keep Hasso.

Here's a very quick comparison, by the way.
Under the buffs of 2x March, Madrigal2, Minuet5, Boost-STR and Haste:
A WAR/SAM with wielding a Shamash with good gear (Ravager+2, Phorcys, a couple AH+1) can deal 149.444 DPS to Ig-Alima.
A NIN/WAR wielding a Kannagi 99 offhanding a Fire Arisui maintaining a 30% ODD with Innin up while wearing the most perfect possible gear (Hexed-1 etc) a Ninja deal 99.144 DPS to Ig-Alima.

Both are the same race, and using the same food. When Stalwart's goes up, it becomes 243.976 VS 188.793. In both cases this is an huge gap. That's the problem- the gap is way too large. If it was something like 150 VS 140 or even 130 DPS maybe it wouldn't be ideal to have a NIN around DPSing, but you wouldn't totally cripple your party. You don't even need to look at tiny differences in gearsets and whatnot to know that something is horribly unbalanced when one job can be sporting the best possible gear and is still being outdamaged by another class that is wearing a very average weapon using above-average gear.

[saevel]

Kin that is a very poor target to use, the stupid amounts of LCF are what give you such a large damage disparity. LCF was the previous method they nerfed players damage output as there is no way to overcome it. Pick targets that are +7~8 levels worth and the damage gap close's significantly to the point where the WAR actually has too much attack. Go into the EM ~ T world and DW suddenly jumps up and can actually outpace 2H in total damage output (situation depending). It's artifacts of the damage system being balanced at level 50 and SE never really giving it a good overhaul.

[Alhanelem]

So taking all that into account, no matter what SE does, players will always seek to maximize loot acquisition rate and will do whatever it takes regardless of what the snowflakes think.

Ah, so people who play less popular jobs are "snowflakes" now, eh?

This isn't about throwing the poor little guys a bone. This is about making a good, balanced game that doesn't have allegedly useless content. There shouldn't be "useless" jobs. People should be willing to form a party with whichever person sends them a tell based on their competency and role, rather than specific job. Some of those "snowflakes" you refer to are perfectly good and skilled players just looking for a little more variety in their game experience.

[Kincard]

A very poor target to use is high level endgame monsters, which are pretty much the only place people care about your damage output enough to bar people? Uh huh. Are you actually going somewhere with that point, or are you just being picky for the sake of being picky? You even yourself point out that it's a flawed system so I'm not even sure what you're trying to say- my exact goal was to prove that it's a flawed system.

If I was to heavily push things in favor of the NIN by giving them 0 buffs aside from white magic haste against a target like a DC Nightmare monster, those same characters would be doing:

Shamash WAR: 234.354 DPS
Kannagi NIN: 307.998 DPS

Hurray, the NIN is winning right? Oh wait, I forgot, I gave the Warrior a mediocre weapon. Let's try giving him a Ukonvasara 99 instead:

Ukon WAR: 303.969 DPS

Well dang, that sure killed that whole "one handers greatly win in low buffs" myth pretty quickly. Keep in mind I still haven't given the WAR any Hexed gear while the NIN is decked in the absolute perfect gear that can be achieved, with one piece that is nearly impossible to locate (Khepri Jacket).

[saevel]

Ah, so people who play less popular jobs are "snowflakes" now, eh?

This isn't about throwing the poor little guys a bone. This is about making a good, balanced game that doesn't have allegedly useless content. There shouldn't be "useless" jobs. People should be willing to form a party with whichever person sends them a tell based on their competency and role, rather than specific job. Some of those "snowflakes" you refer to are perfectly good and skilled players just looking for a little more variety in their game experience.

Snowflakes are people who refuse to do things like others because they won't want to be "mainstream". The guy who wants to do voidwatch on PUP for example.

There is absolutely no way to balance a game around 20 (soon 22) jobs, simply not going to happen. Solo content will favor hybrid jobs, party content will favor specialized jobs. Why would I bring a PUP to well .. anything, when I can bring a pure DD instead? So now we're at a point where every single job must be the exact same or you get some being selected over others. This isn't new to FFXI, every MMO must balance multiple class's. What makes FFXI different is a character "respec" is just a trip to the moghouse away. There is zero excuse for people not to have a useful job these days. Heck WHM, BRD and MNK are all three easily leveled and geared and those are three of the most desired jobs with MNK being heavily favored for low man content.

Simply put, your asking for the impossible then getting pissed when SE developers, being human, fail to deliver your impossible demand.

So in short, yes it is too much to ask. Might as well demand the world be a utopia with no crime, greed or strife while your at it.

[Caketime]

So taking all that into account, no matter what SE does, players will always seek to maximize loot acquisition rate and will do whatever it takes regardless of what the snowflakes think.

People would also do this same thing if the jobs were more balanced, what's your point? Greed is human nature, no amount of job adjusting will ever change that.

[Alhanelem]

Snowflakes are people who refuse to do things like others because they won't want to be "mainstream". The guy who wants to do voidwatch on PUP for example.

You're missing the point. All jobs should be valued in a balanced manner. there shouldn't even BE "mainstream" and non-mainstream jobs. That person who wants to do voidwatch in PUP should be able to particpate in it and do a perfectly fine job- not because someone feels sorry and wants to invite someone who isn't "mainstream," but because they are actually effective enough to contribute. The whole point of this thread is that all jobs should be wanted- not just have 5 that are "mainstream" and the rest used only as filler.

Think about it. making parties for content would be so much easier if we didn't have to say " 3/6 WAR WHM MNK only" but could say "2 attacker and support" instead.

Simply put, your asking for the impossible then getting pissed when SE developers, being human, fail to deliver your impossible demand.

It's not impossible. You don't have to make all jobs the same. All it takes is some bug fixing and number tweaking. This isn't "MAKE ALL JOBS 100% EQUAL DAMMIT", it's "make all jobs viable for a majority of content." There is no point at all in having 22 jobs in the game if only 5 of them are "mainstream." That's not even 25% of the jobs. That's a pathetic rate. Few if any other MMOs have it so bad. Out of FFXIV's 7 main combat jobs, only one was used measurably less than the others, and even then, it wasn't "unwanted," it just had more specialized uses but really shined in those situations.