Interim Report – Sorry to keep you all waiting!

[Carth]

The reason it took FOURTEEN HOURS to fill the group has a lot more to do with a lack of organizational skills from all parties involved and a lack of member participation to rectify said dilemma rather than a problem with the "system" which is apparently flawed in all ways that does not magically fill your party slots for you whilst you engage in other activities that you obviously hold in higher regard. I'm dense? Coming from you, that's quite a compliment; I didn't think you had it in you.

But go on, drink your beer and watch your films and keep bitching until they put an AUTO-WIN button right next to PLAY GAME at startup, so in the days you have better things to do, you can still get something accomplished. Regarding your last statement, apparently these two choice activities (amongst sleeping, of all things) didn't work out too well for you.

The proof is in the pudding, and you sir are the fucking Bill Cosby of "What's Wrong with MMO's Today?"

This is an idiotic argument. Sorry Mr. Nostalgia, but back in those days, the same thing happened to me (except after hour #8 I just gave up). It's not because "you weren't trying hard enough", but the playerbase was so dumb back then that unless they needed the same quest, they aren't willing to inconvenience themselves to help others.

Specifically, my situation was the Savage Blade NM quest. I was completely ready for the quest, but I needed others to open the weighted doors. Now take a step back and realize this was in 2005, and back in those days, we didn't even have a clue how to properly grind for EXP. This is why it's no surprise that the majority of the playerbase believed you needed an alliance for the quest purely because you needed to the open the weighted doors in Quicksand caves and race to gate (this is because no one knew you had 30 minutes to go in after the gate opened). Damn near every fansite and the wiki stated this, and it was further solidified when my Sky LS told me the same thing, and they specifically postponed doing the quest for me for this false fact.

This is doubly true with CoP. You can argue that Frank should've asked his linkshell for help, but you're completely missing the point if you are. It doesn't excuse the fact that the playerbase as a whole were idiots, and unless they have a guide sitting in front of them, doing a PUG in CoP was asking for failure. I know this because I specifically became the CoP leader for my old linkshell when it was still capped, because I needed members to get my CoP missions done, but everyone else were stuck on the Promyvion missions because for some reason, there's always only 2 out of 6 members that actually feel assed enough to come prepared and have their "Make this boss retarded" items, so I had to make a strict guide showing that everyone needed to bring their items and the party setups were the most optimal.

The reason why it's so hard to get members in the first place is because the people that actually have CoP done doesn't dare do them again because they don't want to farm the items needed just to simply help out (this is why SE eventually allowed Anima and other "boss rape" items to be buyable on the AH). I can't blame them either. Who wants to waste their time getting items and a proper job and proper equipment(pre-level sync) for someone else, when your chances of success aren't guaranteed?

No matter how you slice it, this is terrible design, and the level sync mechanics only mildly curbed this problem. This is why SE uncapped CoP, because they realized the people who already have their Rajas were not going back to help other people, and as the game became more top-heavy, there were even less low levels that were available to form CoP parties.

[Eyeballed]

This is an idiotic argument.

You know what's even more idiotic?, You're defending the non-efforts of Bill with a blast against the whole community. Way to pass the buck. The more you people talk, it's as if you're claiming you couldn't do a damn thing in this game because you're smarter than everyone else - whatever intelligence has to do with motivation, I don't know. I suppose this makes those of you on that side of the fence stars among retards?

Whether in 1905, 2005, or 2055 your outlook is trash.

[Carth]

You know what's even more idiotic?, You're defending the non-efforts of Bill with a blast against the whole community. Way to pass the buck. The more you people talk, it's as if you're claiming you couldn't do a damn thing in this game because you're smarter than everyone else - whatever intelligence has to do with motivation, I don't know. I suppose this makes those of you on that side of the fence stars among retards?

Whether in 1905, 2005, or 2055 your outlook is trash.

Cherrypick fallacy.

You decided to pull a statement out of context and therefore use that as a main argument in order to make yourself look like you have a winning argument, when in fact you have nothing.

If you're going to make a rebuttal, make an actual argument instead of trying to make yourself look like a bleeding heart.

[Eyeballed]

Cherrypick fallacy.

You decided to pull a statement out of context and therefore use that as a main argument in order to make yourself look like you have a winning argument, when in fact you have nothing.

If you're going to make a rebuttal, make an actual argument instead of trying to make yourself look like a bleeding heart.

Read back. The original argument was not against mission design or the (restrictive) requirements thereof. It was, however, against the pervading tactics of a group member who conveniently blames the aforementioned "design flaws" when he states himself he did nothing on his own part to alleviate the problem. This distorts his claim of what the real problem might be, and in the very least does not well support his case.

And funnily enough, you go on to add that it's not only these strict requirements that inhibit progression, but also the community of mongoloids you're forced to play with.

Edit: Why did you ever play this game again, either of you? I'm seriously at a loss for understanding.

[Carth]

And funnily enough, you go on to add that it's not only these strict requirements that inhibit progression, but also the community of mongoloids you're forced to play with.

If your only argument is "Mommy, Carth is being a bully! ;-;" , I'm just wasting my time.

Edit: Why did you ever play this game again, either of you? I'm seriously at a loss for understanding.

Because EXP is not 100% of this game.

[Eyeballed]

If your only argument is "Mommy, Carth is being a bully! ;-;" , I'm just wasting my time.


Because EXP is not 100% of this game.

That's not my only argument, and if you'd bothered to read and soak in all that I've said in this thread you'd know that my issue is not 100% EXP, nor endgame, nor anything in between. It's finding the reason MMO's on the whole suck so badly when, at one time, they were good with all the things both you and I liked within. Everyone concedes the genre is changing and "moving on", and I'd really like to see how you can prove this evolution has done any service to these games. I'm honestly astounded nobody has fallen back on the everlasting "If you don't like this game then go play something else!" quip.

And in case you missed it, endgame is not 100% of a game either. And don't give me that horseshit claim that it's still around. It is in its most superficial sense, and that's being generous.

[FrankReynolds]

they were good with all the things both you and I liked within.

The thing is... Back then I had to do the things that you liked, but you did not have to do the things that I like. I am no longer forced to do things your way and it saddens you because it turns out that most of the people who were doing the things you like, didn't actually like them. They were just a means to an end.


I don't want to go back to doing mid-level material on my maxed out character and even if I had to start over for some terrible reason, I would not want more mid-level crap placed in my path back to where I am now. I feel like a large portion of the population would agree with that statement for a large variety of reasons.

You're like one of those old hippies who became a cut throat yuppie lawyer and then had a midlife crisis and is now trying to recapture the spirit of wood stock by forcing all his friends to do LSD. You just can't recreate the place and time that once existed and you would do better for yourself if you left it the fond memory it is instead of ruining the present trying to bring it back.

[Arcon]

Till Geomancer/Rune Fencer show up, anyway. But hey, you're hardcore. Grats on the Maat's Cap++ level of dedication. You're effectively done with the game at this point until a new expansion shows up. Everything's old hat to you, you've likely run CoP missions till your eyes bled, fought Alexander enough times that you have your name on the list, could draw Lilith from memory with your off hand, and the words "Shadow Lord" on your screen trigger migraines and the only thing of interest to you at this point is whatever new comes along in the next expansion plus the next iteration of L99 gear.

In other words, you're done with 99% of the content. Now, tell me why it's a good thing that the current system renders a similar amount of the game meaningless to new players, and why new players would even come into a game like that- and in fact, how the game sustains itself without them.

First of all, I never said any of that applied to me, and it doesn't. If I didn't have anything left to experience in this game, I'd quit. Second, every item you mentioned except for EXP I love and I would do again, and I help everyone out with. You are completely off base listing all of that, because none of it I have a problem with, and none of it I want to keep from others (again, EXP being the sole exception).

And even back when I never did any of it at all, I still hated EXP. I already said a few posts ago, there is only one thing I dislike about EXP. I can deal with grinds. I can deal with time sinks. I can deal with slow (or even no) rewards. The only thing I cannot deal with is boredom, and that's what defines EXP to me. You're trying to make it out to be a lot more than it is.

Edit: Why did you ever play this game again, either of you? I'm seriously at a loss for understanding.

I'm not surprised, you don't seem to understand much. If you read and understood any of what we said you wouldn't even be asking that, because we enjoyed the game for the same reasons we still enjoy it now, namely endgame.

You know what, I hate that term. Because it invariably makes people with an IQ lower than their shoe size think that the game is somehow at its end once it gets there, and sadly, as any internet forum, this place abounds with those people. That kind of reasoning is complete bullshit. The game does not end at endgame. Endgame simply refers to the end of the leveling system. The game branches out in a myriad of directions once there. It has tons of events, not just for hardcore players but also for very casual players. Everyone can find some fun in endgame except for the people who think the game only consists of EXP, and more importantly, who think that the game should only consist of EXP. Because those are the people who refuse to be proven wrong and go on and on against the rest of the world thinking they have it all figured out.

And those people I ask: Why are you still playing? You are the one discontent with everything the game is about right now. You are the one bitching at every turn, complaining about the state of the game, the state of all MMOGs, the community, the developers, and every aspect related to FFXI I can think of. I honestly see no reason for why you would still be playing.

Probably but endgame in FFXI is just too time consuming and not even that exciting.

You are aware that you are defending old EXP, right? Because you saying that is absurd in every conceivable way.

That's not my only argument, and if you'd bothered to read and soak in all that I've said in this thread you'd know that my issue is not 100% EXP, nor endgame, nor anything in between. It's finding the reason MMO's on the whole suck so badly when, at one time, they were good with all the things both you and I liked within.

If MMOGs suck so badly, why are they one of the most profitable and still heavily growing markets in the entire world, whereas ten years ago they were almost unknown, during a time you proclaimed everything was awesome in?

And in case you missed it, endgame is not 100% of a game either.

Aside from crafting, it very much is.

[Eyeballed]

I'm not surprised, you don't seem to understand much.

Trust me, the feeling's mutual. And the whole point in having a debate/conversation is to gain understanding and unfortunately all I've gathered is exactly what you've said in that the grind is boring and therefore unnecessary. I'm sorry, "It's boring and I hate it because it's boring." will never be a good reason to not do anything.

If MMOGs suck so badly, why are they one of the most profitable and still heavily growing markets in the entire world, whereas ten years ago they were almost unknown, during a time you proclaimed everything was awesome in?

Excuse me sir, what planet do you live on? Because it sure as hell isn't Earth.

Aside from crafting, it very much is.

Yes, and we all learned back in 1985 with Super Mario Bros. that we didn't need to repeatedly jump, evade, get fire flower, shoot fireballs for 85% of the game in order to find it fun and amusing. All we needed was 8 Bowsers to have a complete game. Gee, I wonder what developers were thinking??!

Of course the boss battles are the most fun and engaging part of the game with their drops/rewards the sweetest of all, but you cannot make a game comprised of entirely that! If you DO, then you have NO REASON for an open world, and at the same time a game full of sidegrade/modest upgrade rewards because tossing out more difficult enemies for which to suffice their existence is not something developers just casually do! So instead of the old grind, what you now have is the new grind and a .001 chance of getting that next sidegrade piece of gear! What about this do you NOT understand?!!

You would have to be pretty retarded to think that I hadn't already mentioned to my shell / friends that I was attempting to do the quest and I really don't see how having two people shout for the same thing in the same zone (this was before /yell when everyone stayed in one place). I mean you're really just going on about how much better you are at forming groups and that completely goes against your argument that people who want old school style play can't find groups.

Equating my inability to make classic EXP groups with your inability to organize a mission run would be to say "I couldn't get the mission started because 99% of those who could go with me were already doing it."

[Demon6324236]

Yes, and we all learned back in 1985 with Super Mario Bros. that we didn't need to repeatedly jump, evade, get fire flower, shoot fireballs for 85% of the game in order to find it fun and amusing. All we needed was 8 Bowsers to have a complete game. Gee, I wonder what developers were thinking??!

Salvage pops you at the boss at the start right? Nyzul starts you at floor 100 staring down the boss too? Limbus lets you start fighting Arch-Ultima and Arch-Omega without doing the basement areas too, and lets not forget how Odin lets you jump right to him without bothering with the other areas of Einherjar. VW throws you right in Prov, Legion lets you start at Mul wave 3, don't make you fight the 'mini-bosses' or anything for progression either.

In case you misunderstand the point of this post, I am trying to say that we are not just jumping to bosses, there is a form of progression still. Legion and VW are the worst of examples, as everything is basically a mini-boss of sorts till the end, however Salvage, Nyzul, Limbus, they are all filled with lv99 normal progression mobs, Einherjar got a fail update in its amount of content, and only has level 75 trash mobs I think, but there is still a form of progression.