Interim Report – Sorry to keep you all waiting!

[Prrsha]

Well, it makes no sense to refer to what was midgame in 2006 when it currently is 2012, just like you wouldn't call level 25-30 midgame when the level cap was 75, even if it was midgame when the cap was 50.

Actually, when you're about lv 60(and that is most certainly midgame), there is a lot of stuff you can actually do without raising your level even further. You can start doing your AF quests, for example, which offer somewhat interesting storylines in some cases. You can quest a lot of scrolls, you can do a lot of missions without needing help, and you can probably get past all the promyvions. You can unlock a lot of the advanced jobs as well.

It's not the game's fault that people wait until they are level 99 before they start doing these things. People just usually do it when they've hit the cap because it's easier.

It seems the pervailing thought on the forums and by the dev's post (no offense to him) but he's claiming that people need to get to 99 faster so they can have "fun" with other players in FFXI. While there are things to do on the way, none of them compare in quality to end game content (in most people's mind).

When a developer makes that bold a statement, it's very hard to read what he thinks the playerbase is thinking as a whole. I can tell you from years of experience of mentoring however, unless you get a player somehow involved in group activities early on, they feel the game is out of touch to them... that anything worth doing is only achieved at level cap.

What I am proposing is more activites for lower level players so they don't feel the need to be level 99 in order to have fun with their friends. I mentioned some examples in eariler posts. Current low level content is outdated reward wise however and needs a major overhaul and vast changes in game play. It is key to new player retention and doesn't force this attitude that people need to get to level 99 quicker or they will leave the game.

[Eyeballed]

Can you spot the difference? I'll give you a hint. Three of the listed events are actually just boring grinds put into the game due to cover for the lack of other endgame content.

And what when the grind doesn't exist at all, as Arcon would have it? What when you can cap a job in 1-2 days if you put enough effort in? Do you think developers casually create lasting endgame content and toss it into the game on a whim? No, it takes a lot of time and a lot of work. There has to be a way to buffer the time between, or what you get is a whole lot of players standing around after a month shouting, "OK guys, I'm all done! What's next? Guys? GUYS?!?!"

*cricket*

.....

-log out-

[Chocobits]

And what when the grind doesn't exist at all, as Arcon would have it? What when you can cap a job in 1-2 days if you put enough effort in? Do you think developers casually create lasting endgame content and toss it into the game on a whim? No, it takes a lot of time and a lot of work. There has to be a way to buffer the time between, or what you get is a whole lot of players standing around after a month shouting, "OK guys, I'm all done! What's next? Guys? GUYS?!?!"

*cricket*

.....

-log out-

For a new player or several years ago.. as far as XP grinds go, everyone has already leveled the jobs they are going to level, and that is true whether Abyssea exists or not.. all Abyssea has done is allow people to experiment with other high level jobs and add versatility and something to play around on. If not for Abyssea, people would've continued leveling solo or endgame friendly jobs at a snail's pace and not given a 2nd thought to jobs they might otherwise enjoy playing if not for the hassle of leveling.

So they'd all still be twiddling their thumbs with really nothing to do. Abyssea gave us more jobs to burn, combat/magic skills to skillup and subsequently more jobs to gear up. Fast leveling up multiple jobs = we were kept MUCH busier than we otherwise would have been, and SE was brilliant for giving us those tools.

Not that you're responding to me anyway, because you're just looking for a pseudo-intellectual "debate" and not really looking to evaluate the merits of anything anyone else has to say. What did your forum name used to be btw? I remember arguing this exact same point with someone of your... mental nature, but under a different name. And the same thing keeps being explained and it seems like the neurons WANT to fire but there's a short somewhere that disallows the connection to happen that lets you "get it", process and file it under "understood" and move on.

[Eyeballed]

Last two posts directed toward Eyeballed...

The reason I didn't reply to your previous post is because wall-o' text is a big turn-off. Only motivational speakers and politicians need that much dialogue to get their point across. Intellectuals armed with common sense know it's better to use exactly what you need to get the job done and no more, as it just makes you look desperate to find a solution otherwise.

As the one-and-only cat called Eyeballed, I reserve the right not to respond to you. Sorry to burst your bubble. Unless you care to summarize and continue, by all means, take that as a "you got me!" submission.

On the contrary, the only thing that's been explained is that grinding is boring in the eventual case you finally got an invite. I get that. I get you're lazy and don't disagree.

[ScreamingInDigital]

It's not the game's fault that people wait until they are level 99 before they start doing these things. People just usually do it when they've hit the cap because it's easier.

It's not the game's fault, for sure. It's the players' fault, because the advice being given to brand-new players who come in hoping to experience this amazing game they've seen people raving about for years is "just power-level to 99 and then solo it all".

I came back to the game recently from a break of ~2 years - probably longer. The change in the community overall (with exceptions) is amazing to me - and not in a good way. Veteran players have become so incredibly jaded and cynical about this game now that it's actually sad to see. I can not fathom what keeps some of them around.

I mean, if people who have "been there and done that" feel that the game has nothing more for them, except waiting for SE to toss them their next bone of end-game content and gear, that's one thing. That's on them.

But I can not stand it to see these same people passing that cynicism on to brand-new players coming in, with 10 years worth of quality content ahead of them - awesome storylines, cut-scenes, characters, dialog, events, challenges, and on and on... all that stuff that we went through and got to experience. All of that is still there. It doesn't cease to exist just because you've ("you" in general) finished it.

I mean, I read other forums, and I see it time and again. Someone new comes in eagerly and excitedly looking for people to group up with on their own journey through the game. Without fail, they're told, "Don't bother. FFXI now is all about the end-game. All that content now is obsolete and none of it matters anymore. Just get to 99 and solo it all if you want".

I've seen variations on that exact "advice" given to new players. I mean, really? Just because you (ditto) have seen and done it all and are disenchanted with the game, don't dump all over the experience for a new player.

"Well, the low levels are dead because everyone power-levels to end-game now". You know why everyone power-levels to end-game now? Because the veterans who "know the game best" are telling new players "hey, don't bother with doing low level content, just power level to 99". Go figure, huh? It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It's in the same vein as new players coming up through the Dunes who would insist that it was impossible to get through them without a power-leveler. I had that debate many times with people who insisted it couldn't be done. Why did they think that? Because when they started playing they saw a bunch of people in the Dunes with Power-Levelers turning the game into 10 levels of whack-a-mole. That's what new players saw, that's what they experienced, that's how they learned the game. Dunes for them became "Get a power-leveler or it's impossible". The idea that they simply should not be fighting mobs 8 levels higher than themselves never occurred to them.

And now it's happening with bitter, jaded and cynical Vets passing their "wisdom" on to new players by telling them that the low level content is out-dated and doesn't matter. For a brand-new player it's not out-dated at all. The stories are still just as great. The cut-scenes are still just as awesome. The fights could still be just as challenging and satisfying to complete. Why the hell would you want to discourage people from experiencing the game we all got to experience on our way up? Just because "you're past all that now and it doesn't matter to you anymore"?

Seriously... If you (again, ditto) are so cynical and so caught up in your own negativity about the game that you can't even think back to how awesome it was to experience all those things on your way up as a new player, then please... don't give new players "advice". Don't gyp them of an awesome MMORPG experience by advising them to hardly experience it at all.

[Arcon]

Oh it does, I just find it odd that Acron finds exping and obtaining gear not one in the same time sink.

Way to take some sound wisdom out of context to loosely support your argument. Simply put, I believe, you're not willing to put in the work for your rewards and only want to eat your cake and have it too just because in a perfect world, (your world), that's the way things would work out best.

I actually very much disagree with that. I told you before, the only problem I had with EXP was that it was boring, and nothing else. I don't mind grinds in themselves. There can be fun grinds, when there's a challenge involved. I didn't mind waiting months for an Arise scroll, because doing Legion was fun, it required a lot of skill and coordination of 18 people. Even in the old days, I didn't mind waiting a few years to cap out on AF2 from Dynamis, something that many people took heavy issue with, because it was fun to me. That was tough, and I endured and got a reward for it. EXP is not tough, it is just waiting. You do nothing for a few weeks and you're 75. Now you do nothing for a few days and you're 99. The less nothing you're doing, the better.

And in case you're wondering, I concur: Neither developers nor yourself have any idea what you're doing to the genre.

If you play a FF# game, expect the following: experience points, gear progression, ability progression and time sinks.

You're obviously not a FF fan, because that statement is untrue for the same reason Eyeballed's previous statement is untrue: FF games don't follow a formula. Sure, there's always some Cid and Chocobos, and Shiva and Ifrit are always involved somehow, but that's it. There have been FF games without levels at all.

And here's the thing, even if it did, who cares? You can't judge a game by its genre. A game is not good or bad depending on the genre. So what if it's not a traditional D&D style RPG? Does that mean it can't still have RPG elements that people are attracted to?

Treating an NM like a Pinata until the particular piece of candy you want comes out is not any less repetitive than stabbing crustaceans for experience points over and over again. I don't think it helps anyone learn anything either, other than spawn conditions.

Repetitive is not necessarily boring, if it's a challenge, or some sort of excitement involved. This is why I don't randomly bash pro-EXP people, because excitement can be subjective. Maybe you really enjoy these pointless boring fights? Who knows. It sounds strange to me, just as it sounds strange to most people that I enjoyed camping NMs. Personal differences. Only I know when I'm being subjective, and I know that objectively camping NMs (or at least HNMs) was a shitfest. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, and if I was a game designer I sure as hell wouldn't implement it. Same goes for massive EXP grinds like FFXI had in the past.

Exactly my point. SE needs to add low-mid level content so the climb to 75 (end game) is not just the primary focus for new players.

When a developer makes that bold a statement, it's very hard to read what he thinks the playerbase is thinking as a whole. I can tell you from years of experience of mentoring however, unless you get a player somehow involved in group activities early on, they feel the game is out of touch to them... that anything worth doing is only achieved at level cap.

You can still do that. We get new players in our shell about once a week, and they are involved very early on, namely once they reach 99, which is a few days in (tops). The relevance of 99 content isn't bad, as you make it out to be. It would be bad, if EXP was still horribly slow as it was back in the day. But these days, even 99 content is not out of reach to anyone, not even complete newbies. And once they enter Abyssea, they have the time of their lives in there, because it's extremely accessible to them. It's a very newbie-friendly event, and they get introduced to the game quickly.

And what when the grind doesn't exist at all, as Arcon would have it?

See above. Boring grinds and grinds are not the same. I've been doing Salvage almost daily for the better part of a year now. I enjoy it, because it's still challenging. Not in a "Will I make it?" kind of way, but in a "I can do this better!" way. I can constantly improve, cut corners, get better, push myself. Occasionally I link 20 mobs and have to handle them somehow in between keeping myself and my mule alive. It's a long grind, but it's not dumbed down and it's not pointless, unlike EXP, which pretty much gives the definition of dumbing down an event.

[Chocobits]

So, to summarize the last 10 pages or so of this thread:

Some people think everyone that power levels a job are lazy for not "doing their time" like a prison sentence and serving an arbitrary minimum term before they are let out on parole to join endgame.

Furthermore, they complain noisily when they can't find a bare minimum of people to do community service with them.

So, because they can't find anyone to help them pick up trash, they feel it should be mandated everywhere.

ITT: Having an aversion to boring repetitive "content" and choosing to skip it makes you lazy, and MMORPG stands for Massively Multiplayer Online Repetitive Psychotic Grind.

[Prrsha]

Alot of stuff....

Basically what you are summing up, is that fun is subjective to the person. A time sink for one person might be fun for one and not another. I get that. What I would like are options not a mandate. More activities for low level players are a win in all areas. If you don't like the event don't do it and get the reward. Be it chocobo raising to leveling. What I am asking for are options for new player retention, not the same old quote "get to level 99 to first to have fun in a large scale event that requires teamwork"... sheesh.

[Prrsha]

It's not the game's fault, for sure. It's the players' fault, because the advice being given to brand-new players who come in hoping to experience this amazing game they've seen people raving about for years is "just power-level to 99 and then solo it all".

I came back to the game recently from a break of ~2 years - probably longer. The change in the community overall (with exceptions) is amazing to me - and not in a good way. Veteran players have become so incredibly jaded and cynical about this game now that it's actually sad to see. I can not fathom what keeps some of them around.

I mean, if people who have "been there and done that" feel that the game has nothing more for them, except waiting for SE to toss them their next bone of end-game content and gear, that's one thing. That's on them.

But I can not stand it to see these same people passing that cynicism on to brand-new players coming in, with 10 years worth of quality content ahead of them - awesome storylines, cut-scenes, characters, dialog, events, challenges, and on and on... all that stuff that we went through and got to experience. All of that is still there. It doesn't cease to exist just because you've ("you" in general) finished it.

I mean, I read other forums, and I see it time and again. Someone new comes in eagerly and excitedly looking for people to group up with on their own journey through the game. Without fail, they're told, "Don't bother. FFXI now is all about the end-game. All that content now is obsolete and none of it matters anymore. Just get to 99 and solo it all if you want".

I've seen variations on that exact "advice" given to new players. I mean, really? Just because you (ditto) have seen and done it all and are disenchanted with the game, don't dump all over the experience for a new player.

"Well, the low levels are dead because everyone power-levels to end-game now". You know why everyone power-levels to end-game now? Because the veterans who "know the game best" are telling new players "hey, don't bother with doing low level content, just power level to 99". Go figure, huh? It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It's in the same vein as new players coming up through the Dunes who would insist that it was impossible to get through them without a power-leveler. I had that debate many times with people who insisted it couldn't be done. Why did they think that? Because when they started playing they saw a bunch of people in the Dunes with Power-Levelers turning the game into 10 levels of whack-a-mole. That's what new players saw, that's what they experienced, that's how they learned the game. Dunes for them became "Get a power-leveler or it's impossible". The idea that they simply should not be fighting mobs 8 levels higher than themselves never occurred to them.

And now it's happening with bitter, jaded and cynical Vets passing their "wisdom" on to new players by telling them that the low level content is out-dated and doesn't matter. For a brand-new player it's not out-dated at all. The stories are still just as great. The cut-scenes are still just as awesome. The fights could still be just as challenging and satisfying to complete. Why the hell would you want to discourage people from experiencing the game we all got to experience on our way up? Just because "you're past all that now and it doesn't matter to you anymore"?

Seriously... If you (again, ditto) are so cynical and so caught up in your own negativity about the game that you can't even think back to how awesome it was to experience all those things on your way up as a new player, then please... don't give new players "advice". Don't gyp them of an awesome MMORPG experience by advising them to hardly experience it at all.

This summarizes it best. New players have yet to experience the Vanadiel that you did. Shouldn't they have an option to do so? Telling someone to get to the end of the game to have any fun in it, sort of discourages a newbee in general. Shouldn't there be a lead up to it? Something inbetween? There was... now that exp is full tilt forward (and the developer is considering making the progress faster) all of that old enjoyable content is lost once you get to level 99. Most of the starting city quests are low level quests and rewards. CoP is a joke at level 99. SE basically tossed out 75% of the existing content for new players. Argue what you will but for FFXI to survive you have to bring in new players and as it stands now, FFXI seems like a members-only club with the attitude of some of the people.

[Arcon]

More activities for low level players are a win in all areas.

No it's not, for two reasons. First, it discourages people who don't have any low level jobs anymore from participating. Second, it's time wasted catering to very few that could be spent fixing some of the gaping flaws this game has, including (but not by any means limited to) content.

Anything targeting mid levels is bad design choice, because it's only temporarily relevant, and only in a very short term. Once you're past the mid levels, you are done with it. Unless it's an amazing event that will match endgame expectations it will be an entirely forgettable experience, and why should development time be spent on that?

New players have yet to experience the Vanadiel that you did. Shouldn't they have an option to do so?

They do. Level Sync to 30 and do Promies. Level Sync to 40 and do Minotaur. Level Sync to 50 and do Ouryu. Level Sync to 60 do the Airship fight.

If you now say that they can't find any people to sync to them, then that alone illustrates the problem: if people don't want to voluntarily do something, your idea is to force them to? How the hell do you think that will make people happier?

If they want a challenge without Level Sync, just let them do Promies with one or two other people at 40. It's still a challenge then, quite tough for some jobs even. It's still there to experience. Of course it won't be quite the same as doing it with a full party at level 30, but that's because it's dated content, which is precisely why more problems would arise from uncapping it than it would fix. People have moved on since then, you can't shout anymore and hope to get a Promy party going. It's a lot tougher to find help with those, that was already the case at the end of the 75 era, and that alone was the reason why the cap was removed in the first place.

Telling someone to get to the end of the game to have any fun in it, sort of discourages a newbee in general.

It didn't discourage the many people I've taken into my shell recently. Three of them just started today, they're Lv.30 ish now (differs because they started at different times and independent of each other) and about to unlock their support jobs sometime soon. The other few people who joined just this week also don't seem to mind, and the ones who joined before neither. Your argument still relies on the idea that the difference between 1 and 99 is huge, but that's not the case. Leveling up comes easy, and it's precisely because of that that people are not intimidated by the statements that the game only really starts there.