Can the Devs allow Dual Wielding Shields?

[hideka]

lol i did this in demon souls and beat the game dualwielding shields.

[Taint2]

Awesome concept.

Its like a MNK with shields, blocks instead of counters etc.

[kingfury]

While I wouldn't be opposed to the idea of dual wielding medium/small shields, I don't really see the practicality, other than turning your PLD into a MNK with Block instead of Guard.

Now, what I think would be more useful would be to treat sword and shield as two weapon fighting. Just like dual wield, you would strike once with your sword, then one with the shield. Give the shield a delay for attacking purposes.

Break Shield Mastery down into tiers like Dual Wield I, II, III, IV and V. Give PLD Shield Master I, II, III, IV, and V. Shield Mastery acts as PLDs Dual Wield by reducing delay.

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Well ironically, that's exactly what the concept would be although I think you underestimate what kind of a torn that kind of PLD would be to a monster. To merge the damage of a MNK with the defensive capabilities and magic spells available to a PLD would be a new battle tank class indeed for FFXI, so that would be the goal with these weapons.

• The 1st goal would be to create a weapon that would be most intuitive to a PLD, so what would better than a melee shield that can cause damage and still process a block. I stated in an earlier post that a PLD would still have the option to use a sword alongside these melee shields (though it might require the "Dual wield" job trait should they choose to do so depending on how they're programmed) and it would work exactly as you're suggesting, "to treat sword and shield as two weapon fighting. Just like dual wield, you would strike once with your sword, then one with the shield"
  
• The next goal would be to create a new and diverse list of weapon skills that would cater to a tank's need to generate high amounts of enmity. That would be possible with a new option like this since sword wasn't really designed with this in mind.
  
• Lastly, attach some really helpful stats that would help greatly when tanking. Everything that would be absolutely amazing to have attached to a melee weapon that hasn't been available before.

In the end, such an idea would help solve some big issues with tanking if developed just right.

[Yokai]

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Here's some examples of a few standard, crafted and dropped battle shields:

Alright, time for the analysis engine to get to work.

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[BATTLE SHIELD] Young Shell
DMG:8 Delay:295 DEF:1
DPS 1.62 TP/hit 7.8%
Lv.1 WAR/WHM/RDM/THF/PLD/BST
For comparison:
[SWORD] Bronze Sword
DMG:6 Delay:231
DPS 1.56 TP/hit 6.2%
Lv.1 WAR/RDM/THF/PLD/DRK/BRD/RNG/NIN/DRG/BLU
[AXE]Bronze Axe
DMG:8 Delay:276
DPS 1.74 TP/hit 7.3%
Lv.1 WAR/DRK/BST/RNG
[KATANA]Kunai
DMG:4 Delay:190
DPS 1.26 TP/hit 5.2%
Lv.1 NIN
[DAGGER]Bronze Knife
DMG:4 Delay:195
DPS 1.23 TP/hit 5.3%
Lv.1 WAR/THF/PLD/DRK/BRD/RNG/SAM/NIN/DRG/COR/PUP/DNC
[CLUB]Ash Club
DMG:4 Delay:264
DPS 0.91 TP/hit 6.97%
Lv.1 ALL JOBS

Right off the bat I see concerns here as this most basic level 1 weapon outperforms the weapon it will most likely be compared to, the Bronze Sword. In fact, it appears to outperform every alternative weapon except the Bronze Axe, which will only be comparable for WAR and BST, and which lacks that valuable-early-on DEF+1.

Additionally, if Young Shell can be wielded as a weapon in the offhand slot at level 1, it becomes extremely powerful - this is a level range at which even Ninja can only wield one Katana, and Hand-to-Hand functions at Delay 400 with only slight combat bonuses from its weapons.


Furthermore, let's compare this to the existing NQ shield offering:
[BATTLE SHIELD] Young Shell
DMG:8 Delay:295 DEF:1
DPS 1.62 TP/hit 7.8%
Lv.1 WAR/WHM/RDM/THF/PLD/BST
[SHIELD] Lauan Shield
DEF:1
Lv.1 WAR/WHM/RDM/THF/PLD/BST/SAM

Well I think it's immediately obvious that these are the same thing defensively speaking, making Young Shell better without question due to its damage capability.


What I would strongly recommend is to reduce Young Shell's DMG rating by two points.


At a one-point damage reduction, you have...
[BATTLE SHIELD] Young Shell
DMG:7 Delay:295 DEF:1
DPS 1.42 TP/hit 7.8%
Lv.1 WAR/WHM/RDM/THF/PLD/BST
compared to
[SWORD] Bronze Sword
DMG:6 Delay:231
DPS 1.56 TP/hit 6.2%
Lv.1 WAR/RDM/THF/PLD/DRK/BRD/RNG/NIN/DRG/BLU

Which is better, but still close enough that the Defense bonus makes the shield too easy a choice.

With two points down, you get...

[BATTLE SHIELD] Young Shell
DMG:6 Delay:295 DEF:1
DPS 1.22 TP/hit 7.8%
Lv.1 WAR/WHM/RDM/THF/PLD/BST
compared to
[SWORD] Bronze Sword
DMG:6 Delay:231
DPS 1.56 TP/hit 6.2%
Lv.1 WAR/RDM/THF/PLD/DRK/BRD/RNG/NIN/DRG/BLU

which is a point where there is a real tradeoff in using one versus the other. On the one hand you get a 0.34 gain in DPS, versus DEF+1. When Protect I is still nine levels off for a starting Paladin, that's something you'll need to think about - and it's not much easier of a question for a Red Mage.

With Warrior, the Bronze Axe is rather powerful starting off, so it's a little easier to decide to use that (at least until level 5 and your first Great Axe.)

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The issues regarding Young Shell +1 compared to other weapons are the same as its NQ version. However, here it's really worth comparing this to the Lauan Shield +1 and the Marine Shield
[BATTLE SHIELD] Young Shell +1
DMG:9 Delay:290
DEF:2 Shield Skill +2 (Shield Size unknown)
DPS: 1.86 TP/hit 7.7%
Lv.1 WAR/WHM/RDM/THF/PLD/BST
compared to
[SHIELD]Lauan Shield +1
DEF:2 (Shield size 2)
Lv.1 WAR/WHM/RDM/THF/PLD/BST/SAM
or
[SHIELD]Marine Shield
DEF:1 VIT+1 AGI+1 water resist +1
(Shield size 1)
Lv.1 WAR/RDM/PLD/BST/SAM

It's worth noting here that the Lv.1 Marine Shield is dropped by a Lv.12 NM. Young SHell +1, by comparison, is presumably a crafted shield, like Lauan +1. Right away it's plainly obvious that Young SHell +1 is far more useful than Lauan +1. It has SHield Skill +2 on top of DEF+2. Because VIT and AGI each give a half point to Defense and Evasion respectively, the second point of Defense on Young SHell compared to Marine Shield's 1 Defense make it strictly better than that as well due to the Parrying +2.

The solution, in this case, is to either remove the Shield Skill bonus entirely, or (and I prefer this option to help make the battle shield stand out as different than a normal shield) reduce both DEF and Shield Skill to 1 each (as well as reducing the DMG rating to balance it with weapons, similar to what I noted in the NQ weapon's part of this post.) Including the Damage change I recommended above, your resulting weapon compares like so:

[BATTLE SHIELD] Young Shell +1
DMG:7 Delay:290
DEF:1 Shield Skill +1 (Shield size unknown)
DPS: 1.44 TP/hit 7.7%
Lv.1 WAR/WHM/RDM/THF/PLD/BST
as compared to
[SHIELD] Lauan Shield +1
DEF:2 (Shield size 2)
Lv.1 WAR/WHM/RDM/THF/PLD/BST/SAM
or
[SHIELD]Marine Shield
DEF:1 VIT+1 AGI+1 water resist +1
(Shield size 1)
Lv.1 WAR/RDM/PLD/BST/SAM

and

[BATTLE SHIELD] Young Shell +1
DMG:7 Delay:290
DEF:1 Shield Skill +1 (Shield size unknown)
DPS: 1.44 TP/hit 7.7%
Lv.1 WAR/WHM/RDM/THF/PLD/BST
as compared to
[SWORD] Bronze Sword +1
DMG:7 Delay:225
DPS 1.87 TP/hit 6%
Lv.1 WAR/RDM/THF/PLD/DRK/BRD/RNG/NIN/DRG/BLU
or
[AXE] Bronze Axe +1
DMG:9 Delay:268
DPS 2.01 TP/hit 7.1%
Lv.1 WAR/DRK/BST/RNG

Here the heightened TP gain rate makes Young Shell +1 a viable option from a solely offensive stance despite its lesser DPS, while the highly attractive Shield Skill +1 makes it stand out from the other Shields offered at level 1 - and (assuming you can dual wield the shield at level 1) the ability to stack the shield for DEF:2 and Shield Skill +2 while also getting double attacks before anyone but a Monk does makes it extremely attractive - though not necessarily moreso than being able to offhand this while mainhanding one of the above +1 weapons.





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I started this post early this morning and am coming back to and finishing it just before midnight, so I'm going to let it stand with just the analysis of the level 1 weapons, and I'll take a look at the higher level ones later.

Kingfury, I hope you don't think I'm being too much of a downer on these. I like what you've put together, and I really do think that if you take my suggestions here, and then extrapolate similar modifications to the higher level items, you would have gear that attracts use while avoiding complaints regarding 'broken' or 'overpowered' equipment.

If you put those out some time tonight or early in the morning (as far as Eastern time goes), I'll gladly analyze that instead of continuing on these. Not to rush you, though - if you want me to hold off, just let me know.

EDIT:
Upon further consideration, given the assumption that an NQ Young Shell placed in the off-hand slot allows for both additional attacks as well as use of the Shield Skill for blocking, you could easily remove its DEF:1 value altogether, or add a 'When equipped in Main slot' condition for the Defense bonus.

Actually, a 'when equipped in Main slot' condition for DEF bonus might be worth adding down the line for all Battle Shields, considering the value of being able to attack with it off-hand without Dual-Wield. You may want to add that to the Shield Skill value as well. Perhaps give them an off-hand only Parrying bonus (at higher levels,) if the primary-hand Battle Shield triggers Parrying instead of Shield skill. This is not something I'm entirely sold on as the best way to make Battle Shields work, but it's certainly worth consideration, I think.

[kingfury]

Alright, time for the analysis engine to get to work.
EDIT:
Upon further consideration, given the assumption that an NQ Young Shell placed in the off-hand slot allows for both additional attacks as well as use of the Shield Skill for blocking, you could easily remove its DEF:1 value altogether, or add a 'When equipped in Main slot' condition for the Defense bonus.

Actually, a 'when equipped in Main slot' condition for DEF bonus might be worth adding down the line for all Battle Shields, considering the value of being able to attack with it off-hand without Dual-Wield. You may want to add that to the Shield Skill value as well. Perhaps give them an off-hand only Parrying bonus (at higher levels,) if the primary-hand Battle Shield triggers Parrying instead of Shield skill. This is not something I'm entirely sold on as the best way to make Battle Shields work, but it's certainly worth consideration, I think.

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Now that's a big post! lol

For the record, it's awesome to know that you're thinking as deeply about this concept as I am lol. Now on to the breakdown!

Alright, so the 1st thing that jumps out at me is that you're comparing this weapon to Offhand shields at level one, and that's not where the idea was heading. If anything, at level one, a player would equip this as their main hand weapon and select a standard shield for their sub. The reason it's best compared to an Axe is because that's what it was designed to most similar to in terms of damage output versus any other one hand weapons.
Theoretically speaking (unless the Devs would choose to program it otherwise should they like this idea), even though this is both weapon and shield in one, it would not activate the Dual wield job trait just by equipping it in the sub slot. In fact a player would have to choose a sub job that offers "Dual wield" to even be able to equip this weapon in their sub slot. That being said, your worries that this would be more desirable over the standard one-handed weapon because someone would use it in their offhand slot is misplaced since they wouldn't be able to achieve this at level 1. Now subbing NIN at level 20 (Since NIN gets Dual wield at level 10), that's when things could interesting and players within the job lineup could start playing with this weapon in their offhand should they want to.

It's hard to truly compare this weapon to others based on stats alone since there are no other hybrid weapons available to us, but the idea is to introduce a weapon that's the best at what it's used for which would be tanking. In other words, you wouldn't be able to fairly compare it's overall worth simply by just comparing stats with say an Axe of similar level and damage because an Axe lacks the same design functionality. In the battle shield's defense, we have a wide variety of weapon choices for offensive only damage output, but the only tool we have available to us in regards to defense is a shield and gear. That's 13 offensive only options versus only 2 defensive only options. Granted, there are MANY different types of offensive options that offer defensive stats and are technically still used to cause damage, but these are still not truly a defensive functioning option like a shield. The Battle shield would be the the definitive hybrid category birthed from a union of both offensive and defensive functionality and would stand alone in between the two.

[Zhronne]

I really like the idea but, realistically, this would require a major work the likes of which you can expect from a new expansion. And the new one is already announced, and we won't get another one after that any time soon (if ever).

This whole idea would require not only new items, which would be pretty fast to design, but completely new in-game mechanics and animations.
I think the concept goes along very well with a NEW JOB, rather than just adding this playstyle to a current one.
For example name the new job "Gladiator", give him something like medium armour, two armoured shields, and this different playstile where you dualwield shields.

What would happen with the already existing shields? Would this new class be able to equip them? Or would he need specially designed shields? At which point it would be like adding a completely different weapon category like, say, Kusarigama.
New animations, new properties, new skill levels, new weapon skills.

Now multiply that for the 5 races and for the different genders and you get an idea of the huge amount of work it would require.


There are more chances to see thi concept re-used somehow in FFXIV than FFXI, honestly.
Nonetheless, kudos for your idea Kingfury, I liked it a lot.
(wish you could draw me as a galka as sexy as the one in your first illustration... /drool )

[Yokai]

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Now that's a big post! lol

For the record, it's awesome to know that you're thinking as deeply about this concept as I am lol. Now on to the breakdown!

Alright, so the 1st thing that jumps out at me is that you're comparing this weapon to Offhand shields at level one, and that's not where the idea was heading.

I was ALSO comparing it to weapons, you'll note.
You have to also compare these to shields because these weapons offer defensive bonuses as well as offensive values, and as a hybrid item they should not be outperforming the solely defensive item they will replace in the offhand slot when they can be wielded in the offhand slot.

If anything, at level one, a player would equip this as their main hand weapon and select a standard shield for their sub.

Perhaps I did not articulate this well, but this is the scenario I operated off of when comparing Young Shell with other weapons such a Bronze Axe and Bronze Sword.

The reason it's best compared to an Axe is because that's what it was designed to most similar to in terms of damage output versus any other one hand weapons.

However, you need to keep in mind that Axes are solely offensive tools, and factor in the defensive benefit of a main-hand Young Shell when making the comparison. To ignore that is to make an incomplete and inaccurate comparison.

Theoretically speaking (unless the Devs would choose to program it otherwise should they like this idea), even though this is both weapon and shield in one, it would not activate the Dual wield job trait just by equipping it in the sub slot. In fact a player would have to choose a sub job that offers "Dual wield" to even be able to equip this weapon in their sub slot. That being said, your worries that this would be more desirable over the standard one-handed weapon because someone would use it in their offhand slot is misplaced since they wouldn't be able to achieve this at level 1.

That's fair, but I would say it does not negate the majority of my analysis, only the bottom section.

Now subbing NIN at level 20 (Since NIN gets Dual wield at level 10), that's when things could interesting and players within the job lineup could start playing with this weapon in their offhand should they want to.

It's hard to truly compare this weapon to others based on stats alone since there are no other hybrid weapons available to us, but the idea is to introduce a weapon that's the best at what it's used for which would be tanking. In other words, you wouldn't be able to fairly compare it's overall worth simply by just comparing stats with say an Axe of similar level and damage because an Axe lacks the same design functionality.

I disagree strongly with you here. The Battle Shield in main-hand only, functions as a one-handed weapon that also provides defensive stats. Therefore it can be fairly compared to any other one-handed weapon. You simply need to factor in its defensive stats as part of the analysis, the same way you would factor in Parrying Knife's Parrying Skill +10 stat.

Furthermore, while trying to achieve 'best for tanking' is a noble goal, it's not excuse to disregard balance considerations.

In the battle shield's defense, we have a wide variety of weapon choices for offensive only damage output, but the only tool we have available to us in regards to defense is a shield and gear. That's 13 offensive only options versus only 2 defensive only options. Granted, there are MANY different types of offensive options that offer defensive stats and are technically still used to cause damage, but these are still not truly a defensive functioning option like a shield. The Battle shield would be the the definitive hybrid category birthed from a union of both offensive and defensive functionality and would stand alone in between the two.

it's hybrid status is why the Battle Shield needs to be compared to be existing weapon options it may be replacing as well as the existing shield options it may replace. A Battle Shield that CAN (but not always will) replace a different weapon like a Sword or Axe, is fine. A Battle Shield that CAN (but not always will) replace a normal Shield is too.

A Battle Shield that will always replace a sword or axe, or will always replace a normal shield - or worse, will always replace a weapon-and-shield or dual-wield-weapon setup - is a good idea gone terribly wrong.

[Yokai]

Fun side note: you can't edit existing posts on the mobile version of the forum site.

Even if you disagree about the 'good idea gone terribly wrong' point, the material effect is that it becomes exceedingly unlikely the dev team would provide it any serious consideration. What I want to do here is help you to maximize the likelihood of the dev team seriously considering adding these to the game.

Unfortunately that means in this case the awesome needs to be toned down to be balanced with existing equipment, both weapons and shields. It can't be better than primary comparable weapons because it is not only a weapon, it is also a shield. It can't be better than existing shields because it is not only a shield, it is also a weapon.

This is the curse of the Hybrid - it cannot be better than a specialist, yet it must still be good enough to use.

Right now, based on the Young Shell and Young Shell +1, your Battle Shields make Swords worthless and make normal Shields worthless. No way would a Paladin use anything else. A Warrior MIGHT use an Axe instead, but probably not.

[Kristal]

Well ironically, that's exactly what the concept would be although I think you underestimate what kind of a torn that kind of PLD would be to a monster. To merge the damage of a MNK with the defensive capabilities and magic spells available to a PLD would be a new battle tank class indeed for FFXI, so that would be the goal with these weapons.

Why would this be a PLD weapon though? I'd peg it more as a PUP weapon, given the weird H2H weapons they tend to use. It would be working off Guard skill, which gives MNKs and PUPs an easier route to skill it up.

Perhaps it's the imagery you've supplied, but I simply cannot see it being used by a PLD just because it has 'shield' in it's description somewhere. PLD is a shining knight in armor with sword and shield in hand, not a bare-chested tattoo-covered berserker punching with shields. MNK I can see fit that image better, but you practically need to be a circus freak to wield such an odd weapon effectively, which pegs it as a PUP weapon, along with adargas and sainti.

Perhaps you could do a side-by-side comparison of PLD, MNK and PUP, and see who pulls off the most iconic look

[Daniel_Hatcher]

Why would this be a PLD weapon though? I'd peg it more as a PUP weapon, given the weird H2H weapons they tend to use. It would be working off Guard skill, which gives MNKs and PUPs an easier route to skill it up.

Perhaps it's the imagery you've supplied, but I simply cannot see it being used by a PLD just because it has 'shield' in it's description somewhere. PLD is a shining knight in armor with sword and shield in hand, not a bare-chested tattoo-covered berserker punching with shields. MNK I can see fit that image better, but you practically need to be a circus freak to wield such an odd weapon effectively, which pegs it as a PUP weapon, along with adargas and sainti.

Perhaps you could do a side-by-side comparison of PLD, MNK and PUP, and see who pulls off the most iconic look

Ultimately it'd be a new job in itself.

It's certainly not something PUP or MNK would use though, you're fighting with shields, you know those things neither job has skill in.