Can the Devs allow Dual Wielding Shields?

[kingfury]

I don't think this would fix anything and I'm going to explain why later.
But even if for a second we suppose it would, it would make other people angry.
We all know how hard it is in this game to balance different jobs for the same role like, say, tanking.
If this new tanking style would prove to be more effective, EVERYONE would swap to this and you would see people refusing to do content unless you have a dualshield Paladin tanking.
This would also make people who like classic PLD angry. SE already showed many times that they are unable to balance out a set of options.
In the opposite chance, if this new style would be less effective than the standard PLD one, then almost nobody would use it, and we're back to square one.

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As true as this is (the Gold Rush effect, and folks getting pissy about having to adjust lol), it was exactly the same thing that happened when the Devs wanted to push WARs back to using Great Axes instead of Axes. I remember being especially slow to make the transition back when it happened cause I had put considerable work into to making the best Axe gear together that I possibly could and was very satisfied with my damage output at the time... well until I saw the new damage potential of using Great Axes after the adjustments lol. So I truly know this to be accurate, but if you asked me to move back to using Axes, you'd be hard pressed to force me to give up my beloved Ukonvasara. That, and most everyone would look at a WAR like he's a noob for not having an epic Great Axe when starting a battle. It's a harsh truth, but it's just one of those things that happens sometimes in the name of changing the game.

Furtherly exposing my point of view now.
I think it wouldn't fix the current issue with PLD being useless because that's not happening due to any faults or issues in the current JOB.
The problem is in the Content.
It's the content that promotes for several reasons either DD tanking style or just pure zerg, and when you have content like this of course PLD cannot possibly have a role.

To fix this they need to nerf certain buffs that are currently making alliances of DDs semi invincible, they need to avoid making people abuse of Atmas, powerful temp items and similar buffs, and they need to add different content that actually requires a tank to be killed.
Done this, PLD will become useful once again.

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This is really true with our current content. My question is however, what if PLD was added to the lineup of heavy hitters against the current content? Would it put them in a negative position if they could deal damage closer to what a MNK could produce while still utilizing everything else they have to generate enmity? Would spamming high spike damage weapon skills + Curative Spells + Enmity generating spells give them a valid role in our current content?

The issue with hate is another story. First there's the lame cap thing that fucked us up all through the abyssea days.
Then there's the issue with the damage/enmity conversion ratio (those formulae are balanced for the average numbers this game produced 8+ years ago) and then there's the issue with enmity generating job abilities which do not scale with level/job/traits but produce a fixed amount of volatile enmity.

Seeing at the picture with 2012 eyes, there are several stupid things in FFXI tanking mechanics that would never happen in other modern 2012 games.
I'm not championing the idea of making tanking trivial as it is in nowadays' wow for example (where you don't even have to bother about holding damage or stealing the tank's hate) because that would be lame.
But at the same time FFXI's standards need some major updates.
For instance if developers judge that some traits/ability/skill is FUNDAMENTAL and MANDATORY to allow a PLD to succeed in the role of tanking, then they need to make so those things are NATIVE to the job itself, and do not come from other subjobs or from specific pieces of equipment.
Things like these (subjobs, equipment, merits) are part of what should make your job easier and more performant, they should not be the mandatory minimum level to even be allowed to start doing your job.
I mean, up to a certain degree it's no problem, but I think sometimes these requirements are a bit too strict for PLD.

Like for example, in the past we had PLDs who had to focus on doing more damage because that was the only possible way they could efficiently hold hate efficiently.
That's wrong imho.
Doing damage should be the purpose of DDs. For instance SE could have easily fixed that, without making PLD do too much damage, by using a different conversion ratio for Damage/Enmity.
Like giving an additional multiplier to that conversion rate and that's it, 100 damage done from a PLD will generate much more enmity than 100 done from a DD, problem solved.
I think it's pretty much demonstrated that while the + and - enmity bonus are very much welcome and useful, they alone cannot be enough to achieve that (especially because of the lame caps and inventory woes we all have these days)

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Agreed. Which is why I believe this weapon would go hand and hand with adjustments to the many other system components and could be a win win for PLDs. I would never think that it could solve everything that's wrong with system of things alone including the way the play style has changed to meet new content. If nothing else, it would offer some new variety to how PLDs tank and deal damage.

Anyway, wasn't attempting to dig your idea down. As I said I reeaaaaaally love it, I just think it's not bound to happen and it's sad because it would be really awesome.
Keep your fingers crossed for FFXIV? They might add a job like that in the future, who knows.
I personally am not a big fan of the current FFXIV core game system, but it seems to me the majority of FFXI players or ex-players like it a lot.

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Trust me, I'm more than use to opposing reasons as to why new ideas and concepts would most likely not get realized lol. I'm far more entertained at the chance to offer the Devs new ideas and concepts to a game that I've loved for so long, so it's very cool to receive any feedback on such ideas. ^.^ /

Thanks for the feedback

[Yokai]

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Now that's a big post! lol

For the record, it's awesome to know that you're thinking as deeply about this concept as I am lol. Now on to the breakdown!

Alright, so the 1st thing that jumps out at me is that you're comparing this weapon to Offhand shields at level one, and that's not where the idea was heading.

I was ALSO comparing it to weapons, you'll note.
You have to also compare these to shields because these weapons offer defensive bonuses as well as offensive values, and as a hybrid item they should not be outperforming the solely defensive item they will replace in the offhand slot when they can be wielded in the offhand slot.

If anything, at level one, a player would equip this as their main hand weapon and select a standard shield for their sub.

Perhaps I did not articulate this well, but this is the scenario I operated off of when comparing Young Shell with other weapons such a Bronze Axe and Bronze Sword.

The reason it's best compared to an Axe is because that's what it was designed to most similar to in terms of damage output versus any other one hand weapons.

However, you need to keep in mind that Axes are solely offensive tools, and factor in the defensive benefit of a main-hand Young Shell when making the comparison. To ignore that is to make an incomplete and inaccurate comparison.

Theoretically speaking (unless the Devs would choose to program it otherwise should they like this idea), even though this is both weapon and shield in one, it would not activate the Dual wield job trait just by equipping it in the sub slot. In fact a player would have to choose a sub job that offers "Dual wield" to even be able to equip this weapon in their sub slot. That being said, your worries that this would be more desirable over the standard one-handed weapon because someone would use it in their offhand slot is misplaced since they wouldn't be able to achieve this at level 1.

That's fair, but I would say it does not negate the majority of my analysis, only the bottom section.

Now subbing NIN at level 20 (Since NIN gets Dual wield at level 10), that's when things could interesting and players within the job lineup could start playing with this weapon in their offhand should they want to.

It's hard to truly compare this weapon to others based on stats alone since there are no other hybrid weapons available to us, but the idea is to introduce a weapon that's the best at what it's used for which would be tanking. In other words, you wouldn't be able to fairly compare it's overall worth simply by just comparing stats with say an Axe of similar level and damage because an Axe lacks the same design functionality.

I disagree strongly with you here. The Battle Shield in main-hand only, functions as a one-handed weapon that also provides defensive stats. Therefore it can be fairly compared to any other one-handed weapon. You simply need to factor in its defensive stats as part of the analysis, the same way you would factor in Parrying Knife's Parrying Skill +10 stat.

Furthermore, while trying to achieve 'best for tanking' is a noble goal, it's not excuse to disregard balance considerations.

In the battle shield's defense, we have a wide variety of weapon choices for offensive only damage output, but the only tool we have available to us in regards to defense is a shield and gear. That's 13 offensive only options versus only 2 defensive only options. Granted, there are MANY different types of offensive options that offer defensive stats and are technically still used to cause damage, but these are still not truly a defensive functioning option like a shield. The Battle shield would be the the definitive hybrid category birthed from a union of both offensive and defensive functionality and would stand alone in between the two.

it's hybrid status is why the Battle Shield needs to be compared to be existing weapon options it may be replacing as well as the existing shield options it may replace. A Battle Shield that CAN (but not always will) replace a different weapon like a Sword or Axe, is fine. A Battle Shield that CAN (but not always will) replace a normal Shield is too.

A Battle Shield that will always replace a sword or axe, or will always replace a normal shield - or worse, will always replace a weapon-and-shield or dual-wield-weapon setup - is a good idea gone terribly wrong.

[Yokai]

Fun side note: you can't edit existing posts on the mobile version of the forum site.

Even if you disagree about the 'good idea gone terribly wrong' point, the material effect is that it becomes exceedingly unlikely the dev team would provide it any serious consideration. What I want to do here is help you to maximize the likelihood of the dev team seriously considering adding these to the game.

Unfortunately that means in this case the awesome needs to be toned down to be balanced with existing equipment, both weapons and shields. It can't be better than primary comparable weapons because it is not only a weapon, it is also a shield. It can't be better than existing shields because it is not only a shield, it is also a weapon.

This is the curse of the Hybrid - it cannot be better than a specialist, yet it must still be good enough to use.

Right now, based on the Young Shell and Young Shell +1, your Battle Shields make Swords worthless and make normal Shields worthless. No way would a Paladin use anything else. A Warrior MIGHT use an Axe instead, but probably not.

[kingfury]

Fun side note: you can't edit existing posts on the mobile version of the forum site.

Even if you disagree about the 'good idea gone terribly wrong' point, the material effect is that it becomes exceedingly unlikely the dev team would provide it any serious consideration. What I want to do here is help you to maximize the likelihood of the dev team seriously considering adding these to the game.

Unfortunately that means in this case the awesome needs to be toned down to be balanced with existing equipment, both weapons and shields. It can't be better than primary comparable weapons because it is not only a weapon, it is also a shield. It can't be better than existing shields because it is not only a shield, it is also a weapon.

This is the curse of the Hybrid - it cannot be better than a specialist, yet it must still be good enough to use.

Right now, based on the Young Shell and Young Shell +1, your Battle Shields make Swords worthless and make normal Shields worthless. No way would a Paladin use anything else. A Warrior MIGHT use an Axe instead, but probably not.

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You're correct about comparing them to our current weapons to get some footing on how balanced they would be for sure, but I was referring to the difficulty of fairly comparing this weapon to a sword, axe, or a standard shield based on it's unique niche functionality that combines two uses that makes it an obvious better candidate to tank with. It's true that new PLDs would take at look at the two options starting out:

• 1.(Sword + Standard Shield) or 2.(Battle Shield + Standard Shield)

They would be more inclined to choose the more defensive option since it would make more sense for a job that's sole purpose is defending. Just because this is true though, doesn't mean that it's a negative fact in a PLDs case since their current weapon set up(Sword + Standard Shield) can't compete damage wise in the games current state at high level content. This weapon would not phase out Swords for every other job, but it would offer a very real contender for a PLDs main weapon choice when considering being an effective tank. Now does that mean that PLDs would never choose to use a sword again should this weapon be introduced? I would say it would be based on the player's play style and battle situation since Swords would still have unique weapon skills that could be helpful against certain types of monsters. That, and the option to use a Sword + Battle Shield would still be a unique and possibly effective NEW option available to PLDs.

As it stands, a PLD has very few real options to choose from in terms of altering their current fate, where as a WAR has a handful of Damage Dealing options to alternate through. A WAR can still choose to use Axes if they wanted to deal damage since it was designed to do so (which was the valid choice a few years ago), but as the game has changed and new options become available, a WAR can choose another option like a Great Axe to deal damage with. Unfortunately, a PLD can't make the same choices. That's what this concept is at the foundation, another option.

I really appreciate the thought and consideration everyone here has put into shooting as many holes into this concept and questions for the sole reason of trying to help make it a serious concept to add to this great game, so know that all of your great detailed comparison data is very welcome Thanks