Legion still sucks.

[Camiie]

Abyssea gutted far more lses than it kept together.

I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I think he's saying that without Abyssea people would have simply got sick of the same old grind and quit much sooner.

Legion could be very successful if SE would just raise the time limit to 1hr+. If SE made the battles time limits 2hrs long, the lack of fear of timing out would see Legion progress beyond mere zerg fest. Battles should be about if you can kill the monster, not if you can kill it before being magically whisked away for no real reason whatsoever.

That sounds perfectly reasonable to me. If only SE had real instancing in place they wouldn't have to stick time limits on everything. I assume that's part of the reason there's a limit. The other/main reason is obviously to stifle progress and gear acquisition.

[Mahoro]

You're tasked to gather up 18 people, fight multiple NMs that spam their most powerful attacks out of the gate with no time extensions while receiving little to no incentive to throw yourself against the wall that is the event.

Is the gear good? Sure, a few pieces are collectable and have some value but nothing is 'wow' enough to deal with an alliance event where one ill-timed Fulmination means you've just wasted everyones time.

What is the incentive for strangers to team up? There is none. FFXI isn't the clique-fantasy it used to be and much of endgame now centers on pick-up groups yet the developers are creating content like its 2009. Why? So the handful of linkshells that can bother to cater 18-36man events can have fun? Is that a good use of dev resources? No.

Why is everything centered on abusing Embrava and Perfect Defense?

I know these abilities are powerful but seriously? Players ask for old school battles (largely turtlefests to make RDMs and PLDs feel good) and instead what we're given is an event where you can't inhale the content before monsters are launching off AOEs that oneshot everyone.

So lets sum up this joke of an event and end on a constructive note:

-If you're going to require 18 people then make the rewards worth it. Heavy Metal, Currency, Rare synthesis materials amongst other valuable loot or no one will care. This event has been dead since day1.

-This idea that hardmode = massive AOE dmg everywhere isnt challenge, it just winds up being brava, alex and zerrrrg till you run out of steam and wildcard it back. Abyssea had more finesse for crying out loud.

If Legions HNMs even rare dropped items of value like say...

Wyrm dropping a Honey Wine or Sweet Tea (because wyrms love it and players love wyrms)
Zilant dropping VNM materials (currently asked for in new 100+ synths and a nod back to Yilbegan)
Harpeia dropping items related to previous harpy battles (another shot at obtaining Anhur Robe, Ephemeron, Athos' Tights)
Dweorg dropping pops related to the ZNM system (he is a pandy warden clone afterall)

people would at the least be interested in giving it a try but who cares about that? Lets just make content that fails to fail.

In summary, a video of Legion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7wBN-U2KXI

I agree with most of your points about the problems with Legion. The effort:reward ratio is one of the biggest problems to me, and I would love if they put in the rewards you suggested (mm Anhur Robe!). Someone on another forum counted up every single current Legion drop that can be classified as useful or great, and came up with only ~20%. Which I guess is in line with events like WoE and VW, and if these drops were in those events people would eventually go after 'em to round out their jobs. Except they put these particular drops behind what is hands-down THE hardest event in the game, and which requires THE most boneheaded of strategies (PD/Embrava zerg). Their dev notes of "oh you must change strats and adapt based on what happens" is simply not borne out by reality when you have an incredibly restrictive time limit for 7+ HNM.

I am actually getting really sick of their time limits on events lately where their balance justification is "oh well, the drop rates are better, but we just designed it so you will hardly ever reach the final mob". It's not even like Legion drop rates are as good as Nyzul. They are better than VW but sufficiently behind Nyzul. And for the amount of effort required for Legion, by all rights the Nyzul drops should be in Legion and vice versa.

I disagree, however, that the devs shouldn't have devoted resources to this event. People complained about individual loot pools in Voidwatch and people asked for this sort of content, and they catered to this demand. While I won't get into the Abyssea/LS debate, I will say there are a significant number of LS's left in both NA and Japan (moreso in Japan if you ever hang out in Provenance for an extended period of time) to justify at least the IDEA of the content. However, I WILL agree that if they wanted to increase its popularity to PUGs, they should add individual chests at the end in addition to the pooled loot (i.e., to make it like Prov Watcher).

[Sparthos]

and that 100% because of abyssea. Legion is a failure because Abyssea destroyed need of LS.

LS' were already on the skids due to lack of content pre-Abyssea. Endgame forums like ZAM and BG were dead because the only thing SE could manage to release were Evoliths (fail), VNMs (fail) and Fomor HNMs (fail). You say Abyssea destroyed LS' and I'll say that poorly received content had already boiled FFXI down to a handful of events that most people were never going to do. Casuals had already been given the middle finger where you either logged in to do merits, level a new class, do something PUG friendly like Nyzul or BCNMs or you were forced to log out because the newest content was all rubbish no one would dare try to PUG.

Sandworm, Ixion, Salvage along with meriting until your face went numb. Which was your favorite? I was quite fond of putting my flag up for hours with no progress myself or doing Campaign battles because EXP dictated you need specific setups and guess what? No one had X job throughout X level span. Fun times.

Legion is garbage tier content that makes the design of Yilbegan blush from it's sheer lack of focus, rewards or purpose for existing. Legion is like the developers equivalent of a kid typing a paper full of disjointed crap just to have something to hand in on Monday morning.

[Sparthos]

I agree with most of your points about the problems with Legion. The effort:reward ratio is one of the biggest problems to me, and I would love if they put in the rewards you suggested (mm Anhur Robe!). Someone on another forum counted up every single current Legion drop that can be classified as useful or great, and came up with only ~20%. Which I guess is in line with events like WoE and VW, and if these drops were in those events people would eventually go after 'em to round out their jobs. Except they put these particular drops behind what is hands-down THE hardest event in the game, and which requires THE most boneheaded of strategies (PD/Embrava zerg). Their dev notes of "oh you must change strats and adapt based on what happens" is simply not borne out by reality when you have an incredibly restrictive time limit for 7+ HNM.

Legion should have been one HNM at a time with either randomizers in play or special mechanics that gave each HNM it's own flavor and thus appropriate strategy. Something like:

Lofty Zilant - Randomizer: Your foe has increased attack power.
Lofty Harpeia - Randomizer: Your foe is suffering from a defense penalty.
Lofty Adamantoise - Randomizer: You are benefiting from a substantial HP boost.
Lofty Elasmoth - Randomizer: You are suffering from a powerful plague. (-2mp/tp tic)

Such a setup keeps the focus on one mob at a time which relieves the feeling that if one thing goes wrong you're going to hit the floor along with 17 other people within the span of 30seconds of a tank dying. You keep the SE fetish of 'random things!' along with the potential for an easier or harder time depending on where the dice happen to fall.

Mechanics like the Behemoth using Meteor only when he's Flame Armored require some level of strategy and border on fair if you happen to catch the pattern before it's taken out on your alliance. Things like the Zilant only using Abyssic Buster if he manages to have a Varanus up (the gyre lookalikes) or Khimaira attempting to Fulmination after a cued Dreadstorm or Mist would be fair and cut down the amount of "haha, you lose" cards an HNM could pull.

I am actually getting really sick of their time limits on events lately where their balance justification is "oh well, the drop rates are better, but we just designed it so you will hardly ever reach the final mob". It's not even like Legion drop rates are as good as Nyzul. They are better than VW but sufficiently behind Nyzul. And for the amount of effort required for Legion, by all rights the Nyzul drops should be in Legion and vice versa.

45mins-1hour would have been fair if it was one HNM at a time because you'd have alliances focusing on the one target at hand and under favorable conditions getting a sample of many different HNMs before timing out. The whole point of Legion was "slay as many foes as you can in X time" yet what we got was "slay 7 foes or you aren't getting the clear credit". Why?

The points and loot off individual mobs should have been enough to keep the event 'fun' while giving people something to do with their time. Like I posted before, seeing some rare items like:
-Honey Wine drop off a Wyrm.
-Red Pondweed drop off a Ferromantoise.
-Ethereal Squama off Zilant.
-Vinegar Pie off Dweorg.
-Heavy Metal Pouches off the Ironclad.

would have been excitement to get people repeating the content while getting points along the way. Things like those new crafting materials that only drop in Voidwatch could have been thrown into point pool along with augment items for new abjuration gear once you managed to clear the 'final' chamber of the event.

I disagree, however, that the devs shouldn't have devoted resources to this event. People complained about individual loot pools in Voidwatch and people asked for this sort of content, and they catered to this demand. While I won't get into the Abyssea/LS debate, I will say there are a significant number of LS's left in both NA and Japan (moreso in Japan if you ever hang out in Provenance for an extended period of time) to justify at least the IDEA of the content. However, I WILL agree that if they wanted to increase its popularity to PUGs, they should add individual chests at the end in addition to the pooled loot (i.e., to make it like Prov Watcher).

The problem is at this phase of FFXI you can't just design events for a handful of players that have an HNMLS capable of doing the content - not after we crossed the bridge into lowman events and mostly PUG affairs. Things like Legion should be doable with a PUG and thus doable by members of a linkshell in a way that both parties stand to benefit just like Voidwatch is right now.

The current Legion is almost completely PUG unfriendly meaning 95% of the base will never touch it and thus my argument of being a waste of dev resources. The few LS that do manage to get 18 together aren't even going to be rewarded for the effort and that makes the entire event a huge waste of SEs time if no one is going to attempt it. The 36man chamber is a joke and should have just been more duplicated chambers for 18man parties to run if congestion is going to be an argument.

Also, a question I've always had regarding to how SE does BCNMs. Couldn't an event like Legion just warp you to one of the many BCNM arenas that see virtually no use? For instance:

-Bearclaw Pinnacle
-The Shrouded Maw
-Navugo Execution Chamber
-Empyreal Paradox
-Mamool Ja Training Grounds
-Talacca Cove
-Monarch Linn
-Full Moon Fountain

are all BCNMs that see little to no traffic. Couldn't the battles simply be held in these regions instead of the Legion battlefield if things filled up? I understand I don't know the specifics but couldn't the code for the monsters be copied into these zones? It isn't like the monsters make special use of the Legion arena or Nyzul where the specific zone is needed for the functionality of the event. All you need for Legion is an arena (most listed above are huge arenas) and the monsters.

The lore explanation? Your memories are being projected to create the magical arena. You'd also axe the commentary that the Legion arena is boring as and looks about as interesting as plaid wallpaper.

[Mahoro]

The 95% figure is mostly speculation to prove a point, and neither you nor I have any serious data on the issue. You would have to count the total population of NA EGLS's, JP EGLS's (of which there are significantly more), and miscellaneous groups like social shells that run "EGLS-lite". With respect to the latter, note that several "social shells" have popped up on Lakshmi which run group events like VW. They start with a core set of people and /shout for any job holes in their group. One of them even locks Prov Watcher drops under the guise of "doing the work" to organize the event, essentially rendering them an EGLS for that one event.

Some or all of the above groups are capable of DOING Legion. Of course, SUCCEEDING is quite another matter because of SE's design choices. But I simply do not believe the original idea of the event was flawed, just the horrible execution. Historically, the devs have always mixed design choices for 100% of the playerbase (Abyssea, missions) with design for a miniscule fraction of the playerbase (Mythics, Arch Dynamis bosses like ADL, etc.). Even if the PUG:LS ratio is 75:25, that still can fall in line with previous allocation of their resources. Of course, I would agree that they need to allocate some more resources to the game to stave off player attrition and interest.

A corollary argument is that just because the majority of the playerbase "crossed the bridge" into lowman and PUG events does not mean they won't ever want to form LS's again....IF, of course, the content demands it and player interest justifies it. I am not foolish enough to assert that Legion will cause ANYONE to form an LS due to SE's shitty design. But post-Abyssea, there HAVE been many new LS's or private groups that pop up to do events like VW. When they revamp Einherjar over the next couple months, it will likely not be PUG-able if it's pooled loot and revised to challenge Lv. 99s. If the revamp of Limbus takes off, well, that was never a PUG-friendly event to begin with so people will have to adapt. Dungeon Crawling might be PUGable or small-static based, who knows? People are just used to doing content a certain way because the content thus far has served it, but that can change based on the popularity of an event.

[detlef]

I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I think he's saying that without Abyssea people would have simply got sick of the same old grind and quit much sooner.

Exactly. One way or another, the old style LS was going to go. The only question was how.

[Sparthos]

The 95% figure is mostly speculation to prove a point, and neither you nor I have any serious data on the issue. You would have to count the total population of NA EGLS's, JP EGLS's (of which there are significantly more), and miscellaneous groups like social shells that run "EGLS-lite". With respect to the latter, note that several "social shells" have popped up on Lakshmi which run group events like VW. They start with a core set of people and /shout for any job holes in their group. One of them even locks Prov Watcher drops under the guise of "doing the work" to organize the event, essentially rendering them an EGLS for that one event.

You're right, none of us have the hard numbers however that doesn't change the fact that this event is all but a failure coming right out of the gate. Failure by my own definition is the event being catered to so few individuals that the effort expended by the developers designing the event goes completely unnoticed by the common player.

Running a search of the Legion zone during any time of the day will more than likely result in a 0 lending evidence to the argument that something is fundamentally wrong with this event, the BG discussion (the most poplular endgame website with a healthy collection of hardcore endgamers) has the accounts of one group that has gotten relatively far in the event while everyone trashes run viability and even if this was merely an NA issue (like WOE) we'd be seeing some of the sellable drops appearing on the AH from JP or EU shells doing this event - we haven't.

FFXI has had flops before and this ranks as a huge one, especially in an era where Voidwatch is the leading content followed by the 2hours/day Dynamis offers. The sheer enormity of this events failure is something I feel we haven't seen since Evoliths.

A corollary argument is that just because the majority of the playerbase "crossed the bridge" into lowman and PUG events does not mean they won't ever want to form LS's again....IF, of course, the content demands it and player interest justifies it. I am not foolish enough to assert that Legion will cause ANYONE to form an LS due to SE's shitty design. But post-Abyssea, there HAVE been many new LS's or private groups that pop up to do events like VW. When they revamp Einherjar over the next couple months, it will likely not be PUG-able if it's pooled loot and revised to challenge Lv. 99s. If the revamp of Limbus takes off, well, that was never a PUG-friendly event to begin with so people will have to adapt. Dungeon Crawling might be PUGable or small-static based, who knows? People are just used to doing content a certain way because the content thus far has served it, but that can change based on the popularity of an event.

The idea of creating large-scale 36man battles at this phase of FFXI (steady decline) is not only foolish but also shows just how out of touch they've gotten from the base. Instead of focusing on the masses with cross-appeal to linkshell activity (better organization, run smoothness, helping friends) we have an event that fails to appeal to anyone while offering 36man access like it's a selling point worth mentioning. The rewards aren't even properly scaled for bringing 36 people to the run which licks of backwards design for the game on the whole.

Newsflash SE, this isn't 2005 Dynamis.

Ideal content at this phase is something that PUG can do with some moderate (emphasis on moderate) level of success and also an event that linkshells can do with greater success due to the boons that a good LS offers. The idea of locking out PUG not only isolates popularity but also leads much of the base to announce XI has nothing worth doing and desub which hurts SE, hurts the linkshell populace and further sends the game into the icy abyss. Many of the old guard endgamers aren't looking for the old school hardcore "you must suffer" events but something thats harder than Abyssea but not so difficult that you must be Embrava'd/Alex'd or you might as well log to POL.

Legion again fails on this front.

[FrankReynolds]

Remember all those people who were like "I want a challenge. I don't care about the drops. I just want a challenge. FFXI is too easy now..."

Thanks guys. Have fun.

[Mahoro]

I agree with Legion being a flop for the reasons you cited, Spart. They went too far out of the realm here as even their target audience has trouble clearing it. But I guess I don't think every event has to be PUG-friendly. Yes, I accept the premise that there should be popular, PUG-friendly events in the game in order for it to survive. But I think if you make a well-designed, well-rewarding event, the playerbase will tackle it regardless of whether it is by LS, PUG, or static group. Legion will never reach the heights Einherjar or Limbus did unless they fix it fast.

[detlef]

Remember all those people who were like "I want a challenge. I don't care about the drops. I just want a challenge. FFXI is too easy now..."

Thanks guys. Have fun.

I never understood that. I like easy things.