[dev1107] Sange Update - Why?

[Camate]

Since shurikens are such an essential part of Sange, I wanted to share some information as there have been some requests for higher shuriken damage and delay adjustments.

　
•Explanation of shuriken parameters
The following is the basis for shuriken parameters:

-Lv48 shuriken (DMG 63, delay 192)
DPS is 0.328
-Lv60 shuriken (DMG 72, delay 192)
DPS is 0.375

With a level difference of 12, the DPS is increased about 0.047, so the DPS increases 0.0039 for each level increase…

-Lv80 shuriken (DMG 80, delay 192)
DPS is 0.416

DPS is increased 0.041 from Lv60 to Lv80, so the DPS increase for each level increase is lowered to 0.00205. If we continue to use the 0.0039 DPS increase for each level increase, the DMG rates would be:
-DMG 87 at Lv80
-DMG 102 at Lv99

“DMG 102 at Lv99” is a value for shurikens that can be synthesized. If this becomes loot from a NM, it may be difficult to obtain, but I believe “DMG 118 at Lv99” could be attainable. (Regarding Iga shuriken, I believe it is necessary to reevaluate DMG values)

One recommendation we have seen from a player is to have DMG 146 and delay 193 (0.760 DPS), but this is definitely impossible. We have no plans to do so, but this may be the range of stats of a relic shuriken, if it were to be created.

Also, regarding cost, it would not make sense for a shuriken to deal more damage than ammunition for RNGs that cost more, so we would like to reevaluate this aspect.

[Bulrogg]

We have no plans to do so, but this may be the range of stats of a relic shuriken, if it were to be created.

How many likes are required to have plans to do so <.<?

[Raksha]

One recommendation we have seen from a player is to have DMG 146 and delay 193 (0.760 DPS), but this is definitely impossible. We have no plans to do so, but this may be the range of stats of a relic shuriken, if it were to be created.

So double the delay but keep the high DMG. this would cut the DPS in half while still leaving people with a high damage shuriken.

[wish12oz]

One recommendation we have seen from a player is to have DMG 146 and delay 193 (0.760 DPS), but this is definitely impossible. We have no plans to do so, but this may be the range of stats of a relic shuriken, if it were to be created.

Camate, I'm going to type something complex here, please try to understand it and then show it to the DEVs.

Let's compare the damage output of shurikens and katanas. Your "relic shuriken" would have 146 damage, and 193 delay, and you're all struggling to not include this in the game, as you think it would be "overpowered." My statement to you is, even at these stats, this shuriken would not be worth using.

Damage is calculated as (Weapon damage+fSTR) * pDIF

We find weapon rank cap by dividing the base damage by 9, so 146/9=16, 16 is our weapon rank, weapon rank+8 is the fSTR cap, 16+8=24.

So now we have our max fSTR available, and we know the ranged pDIF cap is 3, so lets swing things entirely into the shurikens favor and say both of these values are capped.
(Weapon damage+fSTR) * pDIF
or
(146+24)*3=510
So every time you throw this shuriken you do an average of 510 damage.

To figure out TP gain, rather than do a bunch of math, I put on my normal NIN TP set, and went out and bought a stack of 193 delay shurikens from the tenshodo NPC, then hit 10 tiny mandragoras with them, this gave me 55 TP, so the shurikens were giving me 5.5 tp/hit. I then repeated this with my katanas, and gained 4.5tp/hit with them.


Standard NIN TP set, except maybe for the katanas, but these are the best Katanas available to most people, a Lv. 99 Magian and a Lv. 90 Kannagi.
AF3+2 hat, Rancor Collar, Suppanomimi, Brutal earring
Thaumas Coat, AF2+2 hands, Eponas ring, Rajas ring
Atheling mantle, Twilight belt, AF2+2 pants, AF3+2 shoes.

Now for delay, normally when counting ranged attack delay, the delay on the ranged weapon is the time it takes to fire, and the delay on the ammo is the time before you can shoot again, since shurikens are ammo only, I had to do a bit of testing and found that the 193 delay on the shurikens counts as the weapon delay, and there is no extra delay between attacks added. Now how does a ranged attack actually work?
From the wiki:
Ranged delay is about twice as fast as melee delay : 110 delay = 1 second
Ranged weapon delay is the only variable affecting the total delay.
Ranged attack delay is divided into 3 phases :
1. Pulling out ranged weapon, aiming, and shooting : this time span is calculated by : Weapon Delay / 110. A successful Rapid Shot activation reduces the aiming time (the time between pulling back the string and actual firing of the shot) to 0.
2. After shooting → putting back ranged weapon : This delay usually takes 1.7 second to 1.8 second. However, occasionally, it can take fluctuate from 1.6 second to 1.9 second
3. "Free" phase : at this time span, melee timer is un-paused. The minimum time this delay can have is 1.1 second

So the delay between shot of ranged weapon is :
Delay = (Weapon Delay/110)s + 1.7s~1.8s + 1.1s

So for ranged attack delay, it will be
(192/110)+1.75+1.1=4.59

So the totals for this 'supposedly' super awesome relic shuriken given capped fSTR and pDIF are 510 damage and 5.5 tp every 4.59 seconds.

Now lets look at those Katanas.
Since one has 55 damage, and one 50, we'll use 52.5 as the base damage, and we'll also ignore aftermath hits, which only work on Kannagi itself, not the offhand, and not the shurikens just to continue to push things in throwings favor whenever we can. Meele pDIF caps at 2, and we'll assume your ranged attack gear has like 200 STR in it and your melee set doesn't have any and your fSTR is 0. So to determine average base damage per hit its back to the formula of
(Weapon damage+fSTR) * pDIF
or
(52.5+0)*2=105
So every swing we do with our katanas is going to average 105 damage.

Now lets factor in Double attack, Triple attack, Quadruple attack
10% DA from /war, 5% from Brutal earring, 2% from Twilight belt, 3% from Atheling mantle, 3% from Thaumas coat, 3% from Eponas ring, 3% TA from Eponas, 3% from Thamus coat, and 3% QA from Thaumas coat.
Total is 3% QA, 6% TA, 26% DA

To account for this, you have to know the stacking order, which is biggest to smallest. In 100 attacks, the QA would fire on 3 of them, leaving 97 attacks TA could fire on, which would give 5.82 TAs, and then leaving 91.18 attacks DA could fire on giving you 23.7 DAs. So you would take these numbers and multiple them by whatever the extra values are on the extra attacks rounds, for the 3% QA you get, you multiple 3*3, for the 5.82 TAs you multiply by 2, for the 23.7% DAs you get you multiply by 1.
((3*3)+(2*5.82)+(1*23.7)/100)= #of extra attacks you get per hit.
((9+11.64+23.7)/100)
(44.34/100)
0.44

We determined you get 2 attacks per attack round with Katanas, since you're dual wielding, and each attack is actually 1.44 attacks, so you get 2.88 attacks per round with Katanas, at 105 damage/hit average, this is (2.88*105) 302.4 damage/round, and tp gain is 4.5 tp/hit, so it's (4.5*2.88)=12.96 tp/round.

Now to factor in time, how much time it takes to make those hits.
I'm not going to break the haste down into its exact amounts and explain it, I'm simply going to tell you 25% gear haste is 24.7%~ haste and tell you the haste spell is 14.6%~ haste, and use those values.
39.3 Haste Total.
Dual wield: 35% DW on traits, 5% earring, 5% hat, 7% pants.
52% DW Total.

The actual delay on the katanas is 210 and 201, add these together to get the delay per attack round, 411. Now to factor in haste and DW.
411*.607=249.4 (delay after haste)
249.4*.48=119.7
This tells us that our real delay between attack rounds with katanas is 119.7. Knowing that just under 59 delay for melee weapons = 1 second real time, we can determine the amount of real time this comes to. 119.7/59=2.02 seconds per attack round with katanas.

So now we know the katanas do 302 damage, and gain 12.96 tp every 2.02 seconds. To compare this to the shuriken we're going to make the time match. 4.59 seconds was the shuriken time, 4.59/2.02=2.27222772277227722, we'll drop this to 2.27 to continue with our trend of pushing everything into throwing favor. So now, if we multiple every value the Katanas have by 2.72, we get the numbers they would put up in the time 1 throw would take.
302*2.27=685.54
12.96*2.27=29.4

Now we can compare the damage and tp gain of this "super amazing relic shuriken" to some run of the mill Katanas.
Katanas do 685.54 damage and gain 29.4 TP in the time it takes you to do 1 throw with the relic shuriken, which does 510 damage and gains 5.5 tp.

If we factor TP into WS damage, we can determine damage from TP and add that to the melee damage to get the total damage. If your average WS does 1500 damage, which is kinda low for Blade:Hi with capped crit rate and pDIF, we can determine damage gained from TP. 29.4% of 1500 is 441, 5.5% of 1500 is 82.5.
441+685.4=1126.4
82.5+510=620=592.5

Conclusion:
In the time it takes to commit 1 throw with the "super amazing Relic shuriken" you do 592 damage actually throwing it, and 1126 damage if you swing some gimp katanas.

Your "overpowered Relic shuriken" under the best possible circumstances, does half as much damage as some gimp katanas under normal circumstances.

Question:
Why does the DEV team waste their time with this crap? Do they not understand the basic fundementals of their game and how it works or what? Tell them to add a shuriken with 350 base damage, and 193 delay if they want it to match gimp katana damage output, 400 base damage if they want it to match GOOD katana output, and 450 base damage if they want it to be worth using and wasting tons of space for a throwing gear set. And if this stuff is consumable, it better be very, very cheap to make, and stack to 999 via quivers or whatever, or it's still not going to be worth the time or effort to use.

And lastly: they can take their 146 damage shuriken and delete it, it's not worth anything.

[SpankWustler]

Since shurikens are such an essential part of Sange, I wanted to share some information as there have been some requests for higher shuriken damage and delay adjustments.

　
•Explanation of shuriken parameters
The following is the basis for shuriken parameters:

-Lv48 shuriken (DMG 63, delay 192)
DPS is 0.328
-Lv60 shuriken (DMG 72, delay 192)
DPS is 0.375

With a level difference of 12, the DPS is increased about 0.047, so the DPS increases 0.0039 for each level increase…

-Lv80 shuriken (DMG 80, delay 192)
DPS is 0.416

DPS is increased 0.041 from Lv60 to Lv80, so the DPS increase for each level increase is lowered to 0.00205. If we continue to use the 0.0039 DPS increase for each level increase, the DMG rates would be:
-DMG 87 at Lv80
-DMG 102 at Lv99

“DMG 102 at Lv99” is a value for shurikens that can be synthesized. If this becomes loot from a NM, it may be difficult to obtain, but I believe “DMG 118 at Lv99” could be attainable. (Regarding Iga shuriken, I believe it is necessary to reevaluate DMG values)

One recommendation we have seen from a player is to have DMG 146 and delay 193 (0.760 DPS), but this is definitely impossible. We have no plans to do so, but this may be the range of stats of a relic shuriken, if it were to be created.

Also, regarding cost, it would not make sense for a shuriken to deal more damage than ammunition for RNGs that cost more, so we would like to reevaluate this aspect.

Because throwing stuff is not affected by Haste and other delay-reducing abilities, the DPS values for any given shuriken are irrelevant and the concept of a shurikens functioning as a "low delay" ranged attack is a joke. There are no low delay ranged attacks, Development Bros. No one who understands basic statistics is going to actually throw things in the place of just swinging his or her katanas and expect it to do more damage.

The easiest change to shurikens and Sange both would be to just triple the delay of a new level 99 shuriken compared to it's predecessors while keeping the damage similar, make this new shuriken stack to 99, and change Sange from a buff into an instant attack to bypass ranged attack delay. There's still the job ability delay, which sucks for anyone who enjoys hitting things with things, but these changes would be an improvement and maybe make Sange almost relevant every once and again. Maybe!

This would provide some hope of increased TP gain and damage from Sange rather than an even break at absolute best, and it's not like anyone is going to throw shurikens normally for efficiency purposes so the horrible damage/delay ratio would be irrelevant.