[dev1107] Sange Update - Why?

[Ophannus]

Even when you throw those 255DMG winds, their damage isn't even that great lol.

[SpankWustler]

Since shurikens are such an essential part of Sange, I wanted to share some information as there have been some requests for higher shuriken damage and delay adjustments.

　
•Explanation of shuriken parameters
The following is the basis for shuriken parameters:

-Lv48 shuriken (DMG 63, delay 192)
DPS is 0.328
-Lv60 shuriken (DMG 72, delay 192)
DPS is 0.375

With a level difference of 12, the DPS is increased about 0.047, so the DPS increases 0.0039 for each level increase…

-Lv80 shuriken (DMG 80, delay 192)
DPS is 0.416

DPS is increased 0.041 from Lv60 to Lv80, so the DPS increase for each level increase is lowered to 0.00205. If we continue to use the 0.0039 DPS increase for each level increase, the DMG rates would be:
-DMG 87 at Lv80
-DMG 102 at Lv99

“DMG 102 at Lv99” is a value for shurikens that can be synthesized. If this becomes loot from a NM, it may be difficult to obtain, but I believe “DMG 118 at Lv99” could be attainable. (Regarding Iga shuriken, I believe it is necessary to reevaluate DMG values)

One recommendation we have seen from a player is to have DMG 146 and delay 193 (0.760 DPS), but this is definitely impossible. We have no plans to do so, but this may be the range of stats of a relic shuriken, if it were to be created.

Also, regarding cost, it would not make sense for a shuriken to deal more damage than ammunition for RNGs that cost more, so we would like to reevaluate this aspect.

Because throwing stuff is not affected by Haste and other delay-reducing abilities, the DPS values for any given shuriken are irrelevant and the concept of a shurikens functioning as a "low delay" ranged attack is a joke. There are no low delay ranged attacks, Development Bros. No one who understands basic statistics is going to actually throw things in the place of just swinging his or her katanas and expect it to do more damage.

The easiest change to shurikens and Sange both would be to just triple the delay of a new level 99 shuriken compared to it's predecessors while keeping the damage similar, make this new shuriken stack to 99, and change Sange from a buff into an instant attack to bypass ranged attack delay. There's still the job ability delay, which sucks for anyone who enjoys hitting things with things, but these changes would be an improvement and maybe make Sange almost relevant every once and again. Maybe!

This would provide some hope of increased TP gain and damage from Sange rather than an even break at absolute best, and it's not like anyone is going to throw shurikens normally for efficiency purposes so the horrible damage/delay ratio would be irrelevant.

[Bulrogg]

Some people still think that we are insisting on just standing back and tossing shurikens at mobs. A great use for Sange is at the moment of a mobs repositioning. When the mob is out of your melee range your DPS is 0. Sange that mob back into place.

-- at any rate, I am looking forward to the Sange, Range attack delay and shuriken adjustments.

If Relic shurikens are out of the plans for now, what about a magian shuriken?

I also had a thought about stack sizes and throwing WS.

What if you created an item to go in the ranged 1 slot such as a scroll, tool kit or something and changed all shuirkens to 99 stack ammo. Then would it be possible to have a throwing WS using the ranged 1 item like a bow/gun to consume the ammo?

Maybe you could even have enchantment on the scroll or tool kit to imbue the shurikens with an additional effect.

And I'd still like to see a "throwing attack" added to out melee rounds in the likes of a monk's "kick attack".

[vixin]

the more peopel complain about throwing /sange will work in favor for peopel who do like it, the reason being is they are so against a ja and ra they then are to blind to notice they are sending "their input" on it which is why se is taking intress in it now you can call me what every you feel like just know it was becasue of you SE is giving use what we want. ON that Note tyvm

[Chamaan]

Ya know I've always felt that sometimes the devs don't understand the game, but this is the first time I've ever completely felt like they're straight up mocking us. A relic shuriken? Seriously?

[Karbuncle]

If you're standing back, You're better off investing in a Ninjutsu set. At least Ninjutsu stacks to 99. plus, Shuriken's "Sweet Spot" is Melee range, SO they actually expected you to be meleeing when you threw shuriken.

Kinda funny in a "They have a fundamentally flawed view on their own game" sort of way.

P.S: Relic Shuriken was obviously not intended to be shown as a possible item, But a comparison to what they think the DMG/DEL of the suggested Shuriken would be more related too. Honestly, Wish said it the best anyone could, SHuriken are an entirely flawed concept with no real use at all. I like Spanks idea of Sange too.

[Bulrogg]

As is, it is flawed. Look at the road map. Ranged attack delay adjustments.

Albeit hopeful thinking but it looks like SE is serious about this aspect of Ninja. I look forward to seeing what they have mapped out.

[hideka]

dude, relic suriken, relic bullet, relic arrow, relic bolt. infinite uses. now.

[wish12oz]

Some people still think that we are insisting on just standing back and tossing shurikens at mobs. A great use for Sange is at the moment of a mobs repositioning. When the mob is out of your melee range your DPS is 0. Sange that mob back into place.

Provoke does the same thing, and doesn't require extra gear/wasting gil.
Also: play ninja better and this wont happen on the mobs you're actually suppose to be tanking.

the more peopel complain about throwing /sange will work in favor for peopel who do like it, the reason being is they are so against a ja and ra they then are to blind to notice they are sending "their input" on it which is why se is taking intress in it now you can call me what every you feel like just know it was becasue of you SE is giving use what we want. ON that Note tyvm

I like when you type responses to things, because half of your post makes no sense, and it's fun to pretend to be a detective and try to solve the puzzle of what you're trying to say.

[SpankWustler]

the more peopel complain about throwing /sange will work in favor for peopel who do like it, the reason being is they are so against a ja and ra they then are to blind to notice they are sending "their input" on it which is why se is taking intress in it now you can call me what every you feel like just know it was becasue of you SE is giving use what we want. ON that Note tyvm

It's not the ascetic of the animation or idea of tossing something at something that bothers anyone. It is the amount of damage done in exchange for what is given up to do that damage.

Throwing could be changing to Bro'ing, complete with Milwaukee's Best Light ammunition, a shotgunning animation, and physical damage produced by wind-shear from a collar popped at the speed of sound. Everyone who thinks throwing is goofy would feel the same way about Bro'ing if the damage, delay, form of delay, and other objective factors remained the same as throwing.

If the Development Bros somehow give throwing and shurikens some kind of niche, great. However, it is important to realize where throwing stands currently and what would be needed to give it a niche.