Leeching in video games. Good or bad?

[Shadowsong]

Do you honestly believe this though? Exp, and hence leveling in some form or fashion, is the central force behind character development. This is a staple of RPGs. You start low, you fight monsters, gain some form of "credit" towards a new "level" (increased base stats), wash, rinse, repeat. Is there more to do than just that? Yes but you seem to be saying that leveling is not the thing that advances character growth.

Yes, I honestly believe that.
While you are technically correct that leveling = growth (of course?), I have been playing this game for the better part of 8 years now. I agree with you that leveling USED TO BE important. Back when you were stuck at level 50 for 2 months trying to get AF quests and stuff like that. Getting max level is no longer an accomplishment, its a requirement.
I would argue that the game does not even begin until you hit 75(99). I do not find mass killing dolls in Altepa fun. I DO find killing super godz and ultra dragonz; busting your ass off, while having fun and earning gear fun.
This game does not exist in a vacuum, it is an MMO. To not compare yourself to other people is insane, and when I compare myself I want to be the best I can be. Mentally its pleasing, but I also like being able to help my buddies better and not just be an anchor they complain about in /tells. To me at least.
I suppose there could be people who like standing in the same place for hours doing the exact same thing, that is just not me. And to be honest, I feel bad for those people. For the people who never experience what this game truely has to offer, and think that xping is actually the fun part, well... uh.... "broaden your horizons"?

[Shadowsong]

Back in the 75 days not everyone did gear swaping. Only a rare select few.

Well now you are just outright lieing... myself and everyone around me was gear swapping before we had sub jobs in the dunes on the second week of NA release......

And ROFL! at 10% increase from gear swapping, try 400%+. So clueless, I take back my plea earlier for you to straighten up and fly right, this is too funny.

[Yinnyth]

Well now you are just outright lieing... myself and everyone around me was gear swapping before we had sub jobs in the dunes on the second week of NA release......

I have to agree with this statement. I was gear swapping on brd as soon as I got my second instrument. Gear swapping is intentional. SE has proven they have the ability to nerf gear swapping if they want to (pvp content punishes you heavily when you swap gear). They also constantly release gear which is only situationally useful (ra/ex ammo is the biggest example).

[Feynman]

Yes, I honestly believe that.
While you are technically correct that leveling = growth (of course?), I have been playing this game for the better part of 8 years now. I agree with you that leveling USED TO BE important. Back when you were stuck at level 50 for 2 months trying to get AF quests and stuff like that. Getting max level is no longer an accomplishment, its a requirement.

To end game content I agree obviously. But if you haven't been playing the game for 8 years like we have (and I'm always surprised by how many new players I find) then there is still plenty of content you can do without being 99. Namely everything we did before we were 99, or 75 in our cases.

[QUOTE=Shadowsong;296042]I do not find mass killing dolls in Altepa fun. I DO find killing super godz and ultra dragonz; busting your ass off, while having fun and earning gear fun.[\QUOTE]

And you're in the majority here, no question about that. But dismiss entire parts of the game as not being content at all because you don't enjoy it is a little extreme.

This game does not exist in a vacuum, it is an MMO. To not compare yourself to other people is insane, and when I compare myself I want to be the best I can be. Mentally its pleasing, but I also like being able to help my buddies better and not just be an anchor they complain about in /tells. To me at least.

Zero argument here. But you have to keep things in perspective as well. For a lvl 30 BST to try to compare himself to me or any lvl 99 BST isn't even realistic, but I see people trying to do it. The level difference is too high and for some jobs, like BST, the play style after 75 is very different than what it used to be.

[QUOTE=Shadowsong;296042]I suppose there could be people who like standing in the same place for hours doing the exact same thing, that is just not me.[\QUOTE]

Like killing NMs for several hours to get drops for armor/weapon upgrades? Or Magian Trials, or 100 floors of the same scenarios, etc. No matter what you are doing, the game is repetitive.

And to be honest, I feel bad for those people. For the people who never experience what this game truely has to offer, and think that xping is actually the fun part, well... uh.... "broaden your horizons"?

As long as they are having fun why fell sorry for them. People enjoy different things. As I said before, live and let live. As for me (and I think I mentioned this a bit before) I enjoy NM hunting, gear upgrading, Aby, Dyna, VNMs, etc. I also enjoy having the time to experiment with new abilities/spells and try and squeeze every nuanced usage out of it. It's not that I find standing in one spot exping for hours on end to be the fun part. It's everything else I'm doing at the same time. And to be fair, when I'm leveling I different job I normally throw an exp ring, set a page to repeat and go until the ring wears off. This gets me a decent boost to that job without driving myself insane. I then switch to a different job and go work with friends, jump in aby, dyna, besieged if I can catch it (personal weakness), or whatever else I feel like doing.

[Feynman]

I guess my main problem is that I've seen the community of FFXI run off too many new players recently. I've seen people come in, never played the game before, everybody tries to shoot them straight to 99 before they ever know how to make macros. Literally, in some cases. I've seen these people get frustrated because they aren't being allowed to explore, to learn, to enjoy the game, and they quit. I'm getting a collection of people on messengers that started and got pushed to the top so fast they never enjoyed themselves and then quit.

[Sp1cyryan]

A Rosina thread huh? I died a bit inside.

In my opinion "leeching" is not something that requires attention from SE and overall is not a big deal.

I guess my main problem is that I've seen the community of FFXI run off too many new players recently. I've seen people come in, never played the game before, everybody tries to shoot them straight to 99 before they ever know how to make macros. Literally, in some cases. I've seen these people get frustrated because they aren't being allowed to explore, to learn, to enjoy the game, and they quit. I'm getting a collection of people on messengers that started and got pushed to the top so fast they never enjoyed themselves and then quit.

What? I like to understand how people have this notion that boring grind somehow equates to people "learning how to play" better. People still "sucked" at the 75 cap, didn't know what they were doing, didn't know how to make macros, etc. I honestly think it is the same overall.

People are driving off new players? What did people in the days of Valkrum Dunes pts do? It is no different. Have people forgotten the good old saying of same shit different day? That one really says it all.

New players got sucked into astral burns, chigoe burns, etc back at 75 cap and rocketed up there quickly. Leveling quickly or at a slower pace has nothing to do with the person taking the interest to figure out the game, know what they are doing, and get their bearings. It has nothing to do with potential.

Nothing is keeping players from leaving their party and exploring, soloing, and so on that is just a bunch of fooey. No one pushed these players to continue doing nothing but leveling in the first place besides themselves, and the ability to do this has always existed.

[Feynman]

People are driving off new players? What did people in the days of Valkrum Dunes pts do? It is no different. Have people forgotten the good old saying of same shit different day? That one really says it all.

New players got sucked into astral burns, chigoe burns, etc back at 75 cap and rocketed up there quickly. Leveling quickly or at a slower pace has nothing to do with the person taking the interest to figure out the game, know what they are doing, and get their bearings. It has nothing to do with potential.

Nothing is keeping players from leaving their party and exploring, soloing, and so on that is just a bunch of fooey. No one pushed these players to continue doing nothing but leveling in the first place besides themselves, and the ability to do this has always existed.

No doubt, this game has always suffered from the "my way only" mentality and from day one it has run people off. And back in the days of the 6-man party there really was only one way. We can level pretty much however we want now so everybody should pick their favorite way and go for it without telling other people that they are doing it "wrong". But I have seen enormous pressure on low level players to hurry up hit cap and come do the end game stuff especially in the smaller ls that are more likely to take on new players.

I'm not trying to say that "that boring grind somehow equates to people "learning how to play" better". What I'm trying to say is for a new player going straight to 99 with barely seeing any zone that isn't the first 10 feet of Gusgen mines and an aby zone is not an enjoyable experience for them.

In case it's gotten lost let me summarize my point on this thread. Let people play how they want to play. You are under no obligation to play with them if they don't live up to your expectations. People not knowing what in the world they are doing is annoying but as many people have pointed out, they've always existed. Still even in the current age of fast exp saying things like leveling is not part of the game is absurd. And finally as a community can we please stop fighting with each other? Many of these forums are a great example of how hostile things have become.

[Shadowsong]

I guess my main problem is that I've seen the community of FFXI run off too many new players recently. I've seen people come in, never played the game before, everybody tries to shoot them straight to 99 before they ever know how to make macros.

When you are right, you are right. Sometimes I (older players) do forget about the newer players. While I still say SE should be aiming the majority of things at the old crew, older content still may have relevance to people, so there fore shouldn't be ignored.

That said, if there IS a new person, would you not want them to be involved in content that is actually being explored nowadays? Back in the day, new people weren't expected to do Expeditionary Forces or Eco-Warriors, so why should we worry about them doing comparable content now?

[Feynman]

While I still say SE should be aiming the majority of things at the old crew, older content still may have relevance to people, so there fore shouldn't be ignored.

That said, if there IS a new person, would you not want them to be involved in content that is actually being explored nowadays? Back in the day, new people weren't expected to do Expeditionary Forces or Eco-Warriors, so why should we worry about them doing comparable content now?

Absolutely. SE would be insane to release a bunch of stuff aimed at level 30 or something. And I'd certainly like people to get to do the new content and trust me I'd rather be running around end game with them instead of doing G2 for the millionth time. But a lot of the old content really is good, especially if you're just learning the game. Look how long it's kept us around. To a new player this still is a new world and can be overwhelming. Pushing them straight to the top just makes that worse for them. If they want to then by all means let's do it, but we shouldn't make them feel like they have to. If they want to take their time and move at their own pace that's fine by me too.

And Eco-Warrior....because I did one....just one....and swore never again!

[Sp1cyryan]

I'm not trying to say that "that boring grind somehow equates to people "learning how to play" better". What I'm trying to say is for a new player going straight to 99 with barely seeing any zone that isn't the first 10 feet of Gusgen mines and an aby zone is not an enjoyable experience for them.

Still once more that is their choice to go straight to 99, to stay in a few zones, and apparently not explore (what..?).
I am not seeing your point. Are you trying to say people should branch out more and move camps every 5 levels and waste time like in the old days?


As for the hostile nature of people on forums comment. Youmustbenewhere.jpg.

People by nature can tend to be hostile especially when debating what some consider to be right vs wrong.