Leeching in video games. Good or bad?

[Xophious]

Greetings everyone.

I had to remove several posts from the thread since it has been severely derailed. Please stay on topic and friendly, otherwise the thread will be closed and action will be taken on those that do not follow the forum guidelines.

Thank you.

[detlef]

You guys got trolled. A lot. That was really ugly and I feel bad for everybody.

[Feynman]

THIS GAME IS NOT ABOUT LEVELING, holy bejesus

Do you honestly believe this though? Exp, and hence leveling in some form or fashion, is the central force behind character development. This is a staple of RPGs. You start low, you fight monsters, gain some form of "credit" towards a new "level" (increased base stats), wash, rinse, repeat. Is there more to do than just that? Yes but you seem to be saying that leveling is not the thing that advances character growth. With each level your base stats increase. New abilities, traits, and skills are gained upon reaching the correct level. Even your ability to parry, block with a shield, use a weapon skill, your weapon actually hit at all, etc is based on your "level" with that skill/weapon, which is in turned tied to your character level. If you go quest and obtain a nice new weapon or armor, it comes with a level requirement. If you don't meet it you can't use it! You have to go level your character more. What mobs will or will not attack you when you walk by them is based on your level. Whether you can enter certain end-game content, like Dynamis and Aby are based on your level. Virtually every single action you take, piece of equipment you touch, or quest you do is tied to your level in some way. If you want to progress, if you want to do more things in the game you MUST level your character. So everything is tied to leveling. Perhaps we've spent too long sitting at cap level that we've forgotten that we had to do something to get there.

The other thing you've said many times here is that exp is not content. (Forgive me for not digging through and finding a direct quote.) Of course it is. It is contained inside the structure that is the game. It is content. It may not be content you like. It may be content that can very nearly be skipped completely now. But it is still content. And since exp is the content that drives the action of leveling, it is also central to the main game mechanic.

The newer content allows you to skip most of the time spent leveling by dramatically increasing the amount of exp you can get. I'm not even trying to say this is bad, or shouldn't be done, or anything like that. But saying the leveling and exp are not content and not the driving force behind character development is factually and demonstrably false.

[Rosina]

food for thought

Excuse me but... none of you physically seen me play. So to assume I suck based on gear is pretty imature, stupid, and down right idiotic.
Ffxi was never THIS bad. You guys have pretty poor attitudes about PLAYING a video game. Not every rpg/mmorpg allows for quick easy gear swaping. If they did (with out cheating) then I would belive you. Back in the 75 days not everyone did gear swaping. Only a rare select few. Yet I still people down bosses with ease gear swaping or not. I played this mmorpg for 7 years most of you admited 2+ years. So you guys do not know jack on how the game REALLY is. Gear is just gear... all serve a purpose, but really just serves as a slight edge. No matter how good you think your gear is. True skill in play is how good you know the job. Down to proper timing of skills and abilities based on the mob your fighting and its resistances. And your not a leech for not hitting that 10% and yes it is 10%. though it adds up based on combination of gear your 10% "better".

[Rosina]

The only TRUE leeching is really being afk and sucking exp and loot. Since the term came from the parasitic slug typically found in lakes, pounds or oceans. It people used the term because people were going afk for long time and just sucking the exp while the party played. I wore the gear I did because it was my choice. I mostly did stuff solo anyway. I do not care if people do 3000 dmg with a ws. I seen people die from being too "leet" then cry. TBH in group setting it is the combined effort of the group not an iduvidual is how stuff gets done in this game. I don't care what your output is. As long as boss/ mob dies i personally don't care. As long as you do the role you decided to play idc.

You guys are to vain to really say you enjoy this game you care too much about computer generated numbers over just enjoying the game. You guys are so full of yourselves this game is suffering from the moralitry of the server communities. Infact this game no longer has a community feel, rather play WoW or ff14.. least 1

[Lafaiel]

Do you honestly believe this though? Exp, and hence leveling in some form or fashion, is the central force behind character development. This is a staple of RPGs. You start low, you fight monsters, gain some form of "credit" towards a new "level" (increased base stats), wash, rinse, repeat. Is there more to do than just that? Yes but you seem to be saying that leveling is not the thing that advances character growth. With each level your base stats increase. New abilities, traits, and skills are gained upon reaching the correct level. Even your ability to parry, block with a shield, use a weapon skill, your weapon actually hit at all, etc is based on your "level" with that skill/weapon, which is in turned tied to your character level. If you go quest and obtain a nice new weapon or armor, it comes with a level requirement. If you don't meet it you can't use it! You have to go level your character more. What mobs will or will not attack you when you walk by them is based on your level. Whether you can enter certain end-game content, like Dynamis and Aby are based on your level. Virtually every single action you take, piece of equipment you touch, or quest you do is tied to your level in some way. If you want to progress, if you want to do more things in the game you MUST level your character. So everything is tied to leveling. Perhaps we've spent too long sitting at cap level that we've forgotten that we had to do something to get there.

The other thing you've said many times here is that exp is not content. (Forgive me for not digging through and finding a direct quote.) Of course it is. It is contained inside the structure that is the game. It is content. It may not be content you like. It may be content that can very nearly be skipped completely now. But it is still content. And since exp is the content that drives the action of leveling, it is also central to the main game mechanic.

The newer content allows you to skip most of the time spent leveling by dramatically increasing the amount of exp you can get. I'm not even trying to say this is bad, or shouldn't be done, or anything like that. But saying the leveling and exp are not content and not the driving force behind character development is factually and demonstrably false.

I actually believe this as well, in most games I've played where you level quickly the communities are pretty bad, you never get to get to meet people along the way because its so quick, everything is temporary, including people you meet on that short journey, you don't get to know them and you have no respect for them, in my travels across vana'diel I've met people that have helped me greatly, and people that I've helped in the long road to 75 that grew with me as players.

People that I had never met before but played many times with because we were in the same level range for a long time that ended up into cop statics and zilart statics, and a jp player that I helped that is helping me get an empy done after taking a 2 year break, leveling was part of the core of this game to me, some JP players showed me how to MB in the dunes years ago, met players that wanted to level in altep but I didn't have the tele crystal that instead of kicking me and finding another player ran me to the telepoint and we exp'd together a few more times after that.

Yes things change, but at least you had to be awake and couldn't just pay someone 100k/hour and go to sleep just to wake up as a level 99, I won't say it built character because we all know there were a lot of level 75 bad players, but I think the old leveling system helped build relationships along the way, humans tend to only come together under hardships that if were not there, they tend to cut one anothers throats.

Yes, I enjoyed the level grind, but I won't lie, I played brd and cor mostly, I waited on mnk forver for a party before ToAU hit and I was only level 40, the sooner you get to endgame, the sooner you get burned out on endgame content, and I think FFXI had one of the best leveling experiences other than early EQ2 to me.

[Arcon]

Excuse me but... none of you physically seen me play. So to assume I suck based on gear is pretty imature, stupid, and down right idiotic.

It's not. Precisely because we cannot see you play we can only judge by what you give us, which is gear. No matter your skill, you cannot play better than your gear allows you. You won't attack for more damage because of how good you are at a skill, but you'll attack for more because of your gear. Same goes for faster, more accurate, etc.

Ffxi was never THIS bad. You guys have pretty poor attitudes about PLAYING a video game.

This has nothing to do with playing the game. This all about you. I know plenty of people who play very casually and never gear swap and I'm perfectly fine with them. But they don't talk bullshit and try to force their opinion on me (like you deciding what's bad and rude and what isn't). And they never made up numbers and outright lied to my face (like you saying gear doesn't do much).

[Tamoa]

food for thought

Excuse me but... none of you physically seen me play. So to assume I suck based on gear is pretty imature, stupid, and down right idiotic.
Ffxi was never THIS bad. You guys have pretty poor attitudes about PLAYING a video game. Not every rpg/mmorpg allows for quick easy gear swaping. If they did (with out cheating) then I would belive you. Back in the 75 days not everyone did gear swaping. Only a rare select few. Yet I still people down bosses with ease gear swaping or not. I played this mmorpg for 7 years most of you admited 2+ years. So you guys do not know jack on how the game REALLY is. Gear is just gear... all serve a purpose, but really just serves as a slight edge. No matter how good you think your gear is. True skill in play is how good you know the job. Down to proper timing of skills and abilities based on the mob your fighting and its resistances. And your not a leech for not hitting that 10% and yes it is 10%. though it adds up based on combination of gear your 10% "better".

Hey, I'll give you an example: My war has this nice thing called a -PDT (-physical damage taken) set. Less than one hour ago I was fighting this voidwatch nm called Lancing Lamorak. It can do an attack called Rhinowrecker, which is almost guaranteed to oneshot whoever is in the way. I survived that - twice - left with just under 300 hp both times. Why? Because I hit my -PDT macro, and thus taking FIFTY PERCENT less physical damage. Yes, that is FIFTY PERCENT, not 10. I would have been oneshot both times without that -PDT gear. Instead the whm cured me and I could continue the fight and be useful to the whole group.

Also, I have an Ukonvasara great axe, and thus access to the ws called Ukko's Fury. This ws is modified by STR, which in simple terms means that the more STR I stack in my ws gear, the more damage the ws does. Now, why wouldn't I, or anyone else playing a melee job, want my ws to do as much damage as possible? And we are talking a HELL OF A LOT more than just a 10% increase here. Only exception I can think of, is if I'm trying to proc something and not kill it, but then I wouldn't even be using Ukko's Fury in the first place.

If you join a group event, and you're gimp and not using gearswap macros, you are a leech, plain and simple. You complain about exp leeches (people not doing anything to earn their exp) - well, that full pink dancer with one shitty atma, contributing maybe 1-2% of overall damage, needing to be curebombed and dying to La Theine worms, is a leech too. If you join a Legion run and even the brd is outparsing you, you are a leech. If your level 72 daggers do 300 damage Eviscerations (assuming you've even done the wsnm for it) and aoe damage keeps oneshotting you, you are a leech - and potentially costing the group the win.

Oh and for your information, I have played this game for 6 years, done more endgame events than you can dream of, and swapped gear since I learned about macros.

I'll just round off with this, seems appropriate here:

[Asymptotic]

Time out for a minute to let you know that for *support* (not DD) DNC, sea daughter is actually ridiculously good, as take that with VV and you can cure people all day long. You could hardly spend the TP faster than you get it.

Beyond that, totally agree with your entire post.

No, at that point, you should have come WHM.

As far as leeching goes, I don't really care. Killing with 18 people isn't much different from killing with 12 people.

Keyers are necessary for an XP alliance, and who cares what job they are on.

I'm glad that if I feel like it, I can pay for XP when I want to level a job but don't have time to mindlessly grind through 10,000 mobs.

[Yinnyth]

The only TRUE leeching is really being afk and sucking exp and loot.

So a curebot character is a bigger leech than a guy who does nothing more than running around taking loot out of gold chests? The leechiness of a character is determined by a ratio of two terms: how much of the workload they take on, and how much of the reward they reap. Afk is not the leechiest state a person could be in.