[dev1047] Thoughts/Feedback on "Legion"

[Greatguardian]

I believe you already claimed that SMN can't be useful EVER. iirc... "EVER" inherently includes "SOMETIMES". Pick a side man...

Also: It's far too late to try and prevent this train from derailing. Several people... yourself included... have poked the proverbial bear when you started slandering SMN.

Welcome to the Thunderdome

The proverbial bear is everything that's wrong with Summoner.

The job will never see a meaningful fix as long as retards run around screaming to everyone who will listen that it's "Just fine how it is". Summoner is terrible and you are doing nothing but hurting it by pretending otherwise.

@Maho, Eva down and Attack down are fairly insignificant. Attack down will hardly affect a monster you're fighting with 6+ people unless you have a 2,000+ Defense Paladin, and Eva Down is meaningless for most decent melees. Earthen Armor and Perfect Defense are the only things on your list that Summoner really brings to the table, and EA on its own is hardly as competitive as what most any other Support class brings in.

Haste is also Haste. I really do wonder at the average quality of Whms that people on these forums play with when they assert that Whms don't put Haste up and never have 50% Cure potency gear (Not you, but a common argument elsewhere on the forums). Summoner isn't bringing anything with Hastega but a bit of MP that the mage isn't spending.

[Mahoro]

5:30 AOE Haste > 3:00 single-target Haste. And yes, plenty of WHM's I've played with either don't put Haste on all the melee, or they do it once and then are too busy chaincasting Cure V/VI or stat-na'ing to keep up a Haste rotation. IMO, the best SMN will go /WHM and help out with curing and stat-na'ing in between BPs.

The unique stuff SMN brings to the table is one thing, but it's the confluence of all 7 things on my list that makes SMN have a place in my LS activities, at least as much as SCH or RDM. PD has a niche application, but certain fights are impossible without it. EA is just as useful as BRD Scherzo since it stacks, EVA-down makes a big difference on certain fights on which even "decent melees" are stymied (e.g., Lancing Lamorak), SMN stun has a nice-sized length and speed of cast, SMN nukes are helpful on stuff like Botulus Rex, and SMN can hold certain very dangerous mobs which mete out death willy-nilly.

Although I am hesitant to mention VW as it provides SMN with an "artificial" role in the ally, I note that the vast majority of VW /shouts ask for 1 SMN as opposed to other niche proc jobs. Certainly, SMN is in no worse position than NIN, PUP, BST, SCH, RDM. Nobody says "OMG we must have a SMN, NIN, PUP, BST, SCH, RDM," but each job when well-played brings stuff to the table. As for Legion, time will tell.

[Greatguardian]

A RDM can contribute 6 minute Haste, Phalanx 2, Dia 3, and a faster (9 second recast in ideal conditions) stun. Every other nuking mage can contribute more overall magic damage on fights like Botulus Rex, and more importantly they're able to deal it consecutively rather than waiting 45 seconds between casts. Rex is not something you want to leave alive very long, if you know what I mean.

Like I said, Earthen Armor is really the only thing going for it outside of its 2hr.

[Draylo]

SMN is in desperate need of DEV attention, please stop trying to pretend everything is well.

[Mahoro]

A RDM can contribute 6 minute Haste, Phalanx 2, Dia 3, and a faster (9 second recast in ideal conditions) stun. Every other nuking mage can contribute more overall magic damage on fights like Botulus Rex, and more importantly they're able to deal it consecutively rather than waiting 45 seconds between casts. Rex is not something you want to leave alive very long, if you know what I mean.

Like I said, Earthen Armor is really the only thing going for it outside of its 2hr.

You essentially listed the unique things another job can bring to the table, two of which SMN can't even do so those are inapplicable to my larger point that SMN has a place in endgame. For the other two, fast Stun and 6 minute (non-AOE) Haste are great for RDM, but it doesn't automatically guarantee them a place over a SMN. (EDIT: It's possible SMN Hastega is now 6 minutes, I admit I haven't tested since level cap.) Both SMN and RDM can be characterized as "jack of all trades" jobs. Unfortunately, RDM have gotten the raw end of the deal lately and I don't see RDM played in group situations as much anymore, which is sad because I like that job. I am aware of the consecutive nuking thing though, having mentioned that in two of my posts already. I WILL say that the manaburn Rexes I have been on have ended up with BLM's eating dirt more easily than the SMN.

Draylo, I agree SMN is in desperate need of DEV attention, I think SMN who pretend everything is well are fooling themselves. If your comment was directed to me, I never expressed that sentiment.

[Yygdrasil]

I agree that changes need to be made. I just don't agree that it needs to be a complete overhaul. I've stated before that a reduction to the BP timer floor from 45 seconds to 30 would make a huge impact on the job as it currently is. I also agree that our avatars need to have their base melee damage increased to be at least moderate as opposed to doing nothing more than offsetting an NM's auto-regen (if applicable).

Whatever they have planned for spirits had better be life-changing or it might as well be scrapped. I really can't picture much of anything that they could do to make spirits anything more than Siphon Sacrifices.

I cant vouch for everyone here, but I never said that we were "Fine just the way we are". All I'm doing to saying that we're not the utter and complete garbage that some people are saying. We have our uses and we have our things that we're good at... but as with any job, of course we need to have some thing changed and adjusted to make the job work better. I don't think there's a single job in the game that claims to be perfect.

[Mahoro]

Anyway, how 'bout dat Legion?! Anybody participating in the NA Legion test server stuff?

[Economizer]

slandering SMN

The word you are looking for is libel, and it is only libel if it isn't true.

Haste is also Haste. I really do wonder at the average quality of Whms that people on these forums play with when they assert that Whms don't put Haste up and never have 50% Cure potency gear (Not you, but a common argument elsewhere on the forums). Summoner isn't bringing anything with Hastega but a bit of MP that the mage isn't spending.

I'd suggest to use nicer words but I'm not sure that would work to help convince in this case...

On White Mages casting Haste? That's a Bard, Scholar, or Red Mage's job! But seriously, while I understand the statement about White Mages having better things to do (unless lowman it is a waste of a White Mage's time and MP to Haste anyone but their self if at all possible - not that fights go ideally), they should know how to do it if the situation calls for it.

While Abyssea burn victim White Mages (you know the ones, they don't bother beyond a Light Staff and a Noble's, and don't learn anything about how to play the job other then "spam Cure VI 'cuz it R heal bigger") are an issue, I don't see how someone who couldn't put a couple hours into WHM could hope to play a good Summoner when Summoning Magic is so important but so hard to skill.

5:30 AOE Haste > 3:00 single-target Haste.

Red Mage's haste last longer. Scholar's can last longer too. Bards can cap it solo. Also, Dispel.

and then are too busy chaincasting Cure V/VI

If the White Mage has to chaincast cures and Cure VI is part of that chaincast more then once in a minute period unweakened, it is usually the sign something is seriously wrong somewhere. It could be the White Mage, the party, or both, but Cure VI is a steaming pile of crap outside of extreme emergency single target curing when both Cure IV and Cure V are down and if you come to a situation where you have to use it then someone in that situation should feel bad about it.

[Mahoro]

I put this as an edit in my last post, but I actually am not 100% sure if SMN Hastega went to 6 minutes since the 99 cap, as I haven't tested it myself. Will definitely have to do that, as I was operating off my knowledge of the previous cap. Your other points are well-taken, but honestly chaincasting Cure V/VI happens a lot more than you'd think in Voidwatch upper tiers (which is the only current event Cure VI is really used). I agree it belies a larger problem if everyone is rushing in and getting hit.

[Greatguardian]

Anyway, how 'bout dat Legion?! Anybody participating in the NA Legion test server stuff?

I'll probably be there on an alt account. I didn't buy ASA on my main and have no real plans to.