[dev1047] Thoughts/Feedback on "Legion"

[Sparthos]

So we agree. Because I that's all I was referencing. I wasn't talking about any other event. I was only talking about WoE. I say SMN is powerhouse in WoE, you say "Yes they are". Nuff said.

How sad, your SMN is best at an event that is inherently flawed. It's not "powerhouse" either, just the only job that can take the AOEs, is easy to manage in a PUG event like WoE and that all plans to be undone when SE scales down AOEs.

Once the AOEs become manageable, SMN is doomed.

But you can't see that I guess. Or maybe you do and could care less.

[Sparthos]

I'm sorry. I take issue with a lot of what you're saying. First of all, you start by saying that Pet AI sucks... and then go on to say that BST is just fine and functions well as it is.

Next you're saying that SMN sucks outside Abyssea. I'm sorry but no. I'm not sure about YOUR SMN, but mine does just fine outside Abyssea. In fact, I use mine to participate in Sea, Sky, HNMs, Assault, Salvage, Limbus and Nyzul Isle. I also managed to Solo Alexander Prime and Odin Prime using my SMN. Given the right gear (and not even the best of the best) a SMN can hold his/her own just fine outside of Abyssea. I even used my SMN to get through most of the CoP missions solo... BEFORE the level cap was raised.

So your SMN was good at lvl75 content at lvl99, break out the champagne.

Against anything currently designed for lvl99, SMN is in trouble and loses to any number of DD or support classes. Earthen Armor is neat but a BRD can simply Scherzo the party, the timer on pacts limits your damage output and avatar melee is pathetic.

SMN is designed for a game that has long since checked out. It'd take an overhaul to bring the job up to the new par set by other classes.

As for PUP AI? Yeah... it's a little wonky, but they recently revamped the AI and it functions 100% better than it used to. A lot of our attachments were changed to work more effectively and our AI now prioritizes spells based on the needs of the master in ways that it didn't before. Playing on my PUP, I can do some serious work both solo and in a group. In Abyssea, my BLM Auto does more spike damage than most BLMs can do and it's because of the higher pet damage cap that we have. Sure, we're still at the mercy of our Auto recast timers, but that can be adjusted with the right attachments.

PUPs AI is significantly better but the class still has issues securing its way in a party when so many DD can beat it and the pet is killed off by a stiff breeze.

Abyssea is proc, lock and drop it. You don't really need any of the classes other than the ones that can proc so your story about PUP beating BLM is silly. My COR can do 65000 DMG with a brew on, does that mean COR is good in Abyssea? Nope, because all that matters there are procs when you're 19 levels over Vision, 14 levels over Scars and 9 levels over Heroes.

Lastly. I appreciate that you give the nod to Pet Job Powah at the end of your post, but in "high AoE scenarios" we're no worse off than any other job apart from tanks like NIN and PLD. Anything is squishy to a high AoE but there are ways to deal with that. A PUP can use a BLM frame and nuke from a distance outside the AoE. A SMN can just let their Avatar die and re-summon... it's basically what we do already. Our pets are expendable. BST can gear up with a ton of Pet Damage reduction gear and throw out their highest def pets, keep feeding them food and hope for the best.

In high DMG scenarios you can Scherzo DD, use Rangers/Corsairs/Black Mages/Blue Mages who will all outdamage a Summoner/Puppetmaster from a distance. The puppet also has issues locking down the elements which can be highly annoying against certain targets.

Throw out the highest DEF pets? Against anything with a strong AOE, a BST will not be able to keep up with Reward timers and the pet is dead meat.

[Yygdrasil]

Echo... Echo... Echo...

[Glamdring]

1st, for pup it was voidwatch, but I find the entire system of voidwatch to be like masturbation-all the work of sex with none of the enjoyment and no payoff- so I don't go anymore, but yes, we did win. As to beast and my pup, mostly I stay in GoV, the level 100 mobs because I like the fight and I hate Aby easy-mode. As to aby, I mostly solo seal mobs, it's easy enough that I don't worry about procs since I can beat the seal/+2 mobs I need for my AF3 with only moderate effort, so just repeating for the random 1 drop doesn't bother me. WoE, this place is made for pets, and with the devs looking at toning down the insty-kill AoE crap (which, let's face it, is offing anything but paladins in 1 shot) we'll only be getting better. I have to admit, I'm looking forward to WoE on ranger though, just because I like the play style. Legion looks like it's going to work fine with a well-played pet from the bits and pieces I've read about so far, since I have yet to see one of those asinine proc systems being implemented, and the new Nyzul, and the reworked Salvage I haven't seen anything to crush my hopes yet.

This game for me isn't about being able to say "I beat Mob X in 45 seconds", or even that I beat anything at all. I don't brag, I simply get things done. THAT I find fun. That isn't to say there aren't things I don't complain about and try to get changed; I was a huge proponent of the "pupdate" and probably the most vocal on the forum about getting the stormwalker auto spells beyond level 74, it happened, I'm quiet now. My current bitch is the TH ability, I'm more than a bit discontent that rather than fix the ability so that it's worth building above TH3 the plan is to nerf it on everything else, and my reading of the complaints seems to indicate that I'm in the majority, in fact the only people in the minority are the Devs.

Summoner as a job needs work, I'll concede that, but good summoners do just fine. In many ways their the polar opposite of beasts in how their job works, but they DO work. Basically, anything my beast can't handle a summoner can, and vice-versa. The main reason I never levelled summoner was my crappy elvan MP pool, but with end-game gear out now it's on my to-do list, although way down that list since I have 2 good 99 pet jobs already; dark is probably next simply because I have a truckload of gear/seals in storage for it. Even if SE doesn't rework summoner at all I'd be happy to play it now, but I understand a summoner overhaul is in the works anyway.

All the pet AI has it's advantages and disadvantages. I can take my beast and use a pet that will fight the target and any adds all at once. If I prefer control I take my pup since it will stay on what I tell it to, AND I can choose the damage type/defense while I EVA tank the adds. If I need the ability to replace pets at full strength in a relative hurry, that's summoner, the king of zombie pet kills; it may not be glamorous, but it IS effective. If I just want it to support me as a general DD melee, bring on the dragoon. No pet job is perfect, which puts them perfectly in line with the 16 non-pet jobs that aren't perfect either.

I actually use my pets in large-scale activities quite a bit, unless we're short on thief, ranger or dancer, or I just feel like bringing the bard. The usual role is crowd control (when we decide to kill rather than sleep), soloing adds so the rest of the group can deal with the target, but I do just fine when there are no adds and I get to fight the target. The main difference is that I can't use my pet to tank, but if I'm not there for crowd control I'm a DD, so I don't EXPECT my pets to tank (the exception being a whm auto, then I'm DD, my auto back-up healer/enfeebler).

My bard, ranger, thief and dancer all get their uses too, based on a combination of what I want to do and what I'm in the mood to play. I expect the same will hold true as I get around to leveling the other jobs. My pet jobs will always shine though as the jobs I go to when I just need to get things done... because using them I can.

Andon that note, I'm done with this thread, until more information comes out.

[Arcon]

@Arcon, So we agree that they're trash in large-group situations. I'll concede exempting the situation where the entire group is pet jobs, though to say that those groups do things efficiently is a joke. They can get the job done, sure. They can throw an infinite number of disposable pokemon at things. That doesn't make them efficient. It makes them mildly viable in large numbers. Kinda like Battlecruisers. I mean, seriously, who masses Battlecruisers? A couple of Wraiths or Valkyries can obliterate them. But hey, get enough together and they can Yamato all ur base.

I guess I can agree with you, although I'm no longer sure what your point is. All Yygdrasil said was pet jobs have their uses and are great at what they do. So you're effectively agreeing with him as well? Or did you just come in to point out that pet jobs aren't the FFXI overgods in every possible situation?

SMN is only a powerhouse because thar event spams high damage AOE that wipes everyone else.

Yeah, like all endgame events, you know. The only reason this no longer applies to VW is because most people can spam temporary items.

No use, their pulling the "I'm a special snow flake" line.

Well, because we are? Why are people here so intent on comparing SMN to jobs like WAR in terms of DD or utility? That's like saying a WAR is crappy healer and thus has no right to exist. Pet jobs are special, because they occupy a niche in this game's job utility spectrum. They are good for certain situations and great for some of them. They're bad for the usual event situation (and only if you try to mix them with a regular setup or if you care for being time-efficient), but guess what, so is BLM. Are you seriously telling me you'd invite BLM to VW if it wasn't for procs? As what, Impact-debuffer? Does that make BLM a sucky job and it fails?

SMN as a job is broke, their pets are weak. Other then PD or SMN procs, why invite a SMN at all. If you want magic damage bring a BLM, if you want melee damage bring one of the long list of DDs. About the only thing SMN is good for is that it's pet is disposable and can easily be brought back, so a few SMN's can just keep tossing pets at something while running away.

So now you're even describing exactly why SMN are so good and useful. And in the next paragraph you go on to describe how a few SMN survived and fought a battle with a shitload of adds that wiped your group and several other people who entered. I'm really not sure if you're arguing for or against them. I understand your personal beef (I have the same with shitty Dynamis BST hoarding mobs and being general douchebags), but to me that's more of a compliment to the utility of the class.

Everyone arguing against pet jobs here is trying to argue why they suck in the regular party/alliance setup. Who cares? Pet jobs aren't played this way, they never were. It's not about the strength of pets it's about the gameplay style of pet jobs that make them powerful. Why do you think SMN has such a low avatar recast time? Why do you think BST can equip so much PDT for their pets (more than some jobs for themselves) on top of their natural DT reduction and then proceed to cure for thousands of HP?

How sad, your SMN is best at an event that is inherently flawed. It's not "powerhouse" either, just the only job that can take the AOEs, is easy to manage in a PUG event like WoE and that all plans to be undone when SE scales down AOEs.

Once the AOEs become manageable, SMN is doomed.

Funny what people consider doomed. SMN will still be doing it, and with fewer people than other setups, and still with less effort required, same goes for other events (yes even Voidwatch, especially after they cap blue/red lights you'll see an influx of pet shells go and do their thing to almost any NM they want with almost 0 risk involved).

I really don't understand what people arguing against pet jobs are saying. We know pets don't mix well with a regular playstyle. We're just saying we excel at other things (and I don't mean lowlevel content, I mean lowman any content). Simple trade-off between time-efficiency and space-efficiency. People are so focussed on getting shit done quickly that everything that doesn't fall into that line of thinking sucks ass. And as long as you'll have that attitude, everything that isn't a heavy melee, heavy healer or heavy buffer will suck ass. And just for the record SMN fits the latter as well. Even disregarding Perfect Defense, you're telling me you don't want 25% AoE Double Attack? 7MP AoE Refresh? And people saying you don't need Earthen Armor when you have Sentinel's Scherzo, sure, why take 80% DT when you can have 25% DT? Noobs.

You're basically taking away the justification to be on any job that doesn't fit into those three categories with your line of thinking. And I'm not talking about pet jobs being broken, I'm talking about they could never, ever, live up to your standards unless pets are made equally powerful as player melees. And if that should ever happen, no other player melee will ever be needed. That would not be a design flaw by SE, it would be a flaw in your mentality not to accept the fact that there's more than one way to play, because you shun everything that isn't ideal.

[SpankWustler]

I'm hesitant to join in, but I guess this discussion is relevant to Legion since it's mainly about pet jobs in the context of large-scale events.

Pet jobs are powerful in ANY situation. How powerful simply relies on who is playing the job.

The opposite is closer to the truth. There is relatively very little that a player or that player's group can do to make a pet more powerful. There's more than ever before that can be done to enhance the function of pets, but that is still not a drop in the bucket in some group scenarios.

Obviously it would be broken if pets and players were on equal footing, because there's a player behind every disposable pet, but there are certain things (status ailments and extremely damaging attacks are the worst) that are easily dealt with by any functional group but stop certain pets dead. Literally, in most cases.

That's assuming the guy with a bunny even minds if his pet is paralyzed or thirty yalms away or dead, since it can not benefit from any offensive buffs from other players which are common in large group activities. The largest contribution to damage it can make in that scenario will probably be through Killer Instinct.

I realize my examples are a bit Beastmaster-centric. That's because I really enjoy the job. That doesn't magically change the job's poor performance in vital areas.

[Runespider]

I keep hearing people say it's hard to test legion on the test server and the reps are having to step in to organise them for any testing to happen at all, didn't they say Legion would scale to the number of participants? I'm guessing they either scrapped that idea or it sucks as bad as the other scalable stuff they tried to add over the years.

36 players or nothing?

[Arcon]

I keep hearing people say it's hard to test legion on the test server and the reps are having to step in to organise them for any testing to happen at all, didn't they say Legion would scale to the number of participants?

It does. People have already finished successful runs (as in, defeated 1-2 NMs) duo. Also, the final release will allow 3-36 participants, currently there's only 1-2 players allowed in (unless they changed that by now), so it's hard to judge the actual challenge, but it's apparently doable. Doesn't say much about the final release, though.

[SpankWustler]

I keep hearing people say it's hard to test legion on the test server and the reps are having to step in to organise them for any testing to happen at all, didn't they say Legion would scale to the number of participants? I'm guessing they either scrapped that idea or it sucks as bad as the other scalable stuff they tried to add over the years.

36 players or nothing?

According to the most recent quote that mentioned the scaling system, there are basically two modes. One for ~18 people and one for 19~ people. So, it does scale but not to a large degree.

The intent is seemingly for smaller groups to kill fewer monsters but still reap some rewards.

[Mahoro]

I'm a career SMN and I'll be the first to admit SMN is extremely handicapped by its 45-second BP/JA timers in a way other jobs aren't, but I pretty much agreed with everything Arcon said above.

SMN always has a place in my LS's big-group activities. Here are just 7:

1) procs in VW
2) Perfect Defense for AV/ADL
3) another stun that surprisingly sticks longer than you'd think
4) holding mobs where death is meted out handily in ways not easily preventable (Aello, Ig-Alima, Botulus Rex, all Mantis)
5) EVA down and ATTK down debuffs that stick for quite awhile, and make a difference in some key VW fights
6) 5 minute AOE haste (assuming the SMN is well-geared/skilled)
7) Earthen Armor (Scherzo caps at 45%, what people WOULDN'T want a move that stacks with Scherzo to 80% mitigation?)

The people trying to compare it to a WAR are obviously going to find shortcomings....what melee wants to be compared to an Ukon WAR? SMN will never be DD on that level, because it would be too overpowered in solo situations. But what SMN does, it does well.

The biggest issue is that with temp items and spammable magic/WS, SMN got left behind because of the BP/JA timer. Hopefully SE will fix that.