[dev1047] Thoughts/Feedback on "Legion"

[Greatguardian]

I'm sorry, I take issue with a lot of what you're saying.

You use your level 99 summoner in level 75 content? Okay.

You solo'd Alexander and Odin prime on Summoner at 99, when they had been solo'd by other jobs at 75/80 too? Okay.

You solo'd most of CoP as a 75 Summoner after the caps were taken off? Okay.

Nothing on your list impresses anyone.

Pet jobs are shit-tastic. A shit sandwich, if you will. Pet jobs are trash in any large group situation (6+). But don't worry, if it makes you feel good knowing that your super decked Summoner can do mildly unimpressive/mediocre things and keep up with obviously B-tier melee in events designed for players 25 levels lower than you then more power to you.

[Yygdrasil]

I'm sorry, I take issue with a lot of what you're saying.

You use your level 99 summoner in level 75 content? Okay.

You solo'd Alexander and Odin prime on Summoner at 99, when they had been solo'd by other jobs at 75/80 too? Okay.

You solo'd most of CoP as a 75 Summoner after the caps were taken off? Okay.

Nothing on your list impresses anyone.

Pet jobs are shit-tastic. A shit sandwich, if you will. Pet jobs are trash in any large group situation (6+). But don't worry, if it makes you feel good knowing that your super decked Summoner can do mildly unimpressive/mediocre things and keep up with obviously B-tier melee in events designed for players 25 levels lower than you then more power to you.

First of all. Lose the attitude and get off your soap box there boss. I don't remember insulting anyone or bragging about anything. All I'm saying is that Pet Jobs are more useful in all aspects of the game than he or you are giving them credit for.

Second, I admitted using SMN to solo most of CoP BEFORE the level cap was removed. I explicitly said BEFORE.

Third, I'm using my 99 SMN in low man attempts at old content that used to require full parties or alliances to complete. The challenge remains.

Fourth, I'm not trying to impress anyone. I'm defending the jobs I enjoy playing and providing examples of how their abilities can be used by anyone who aspires to play the job rather than just bashing them.

Last... I don't recall ever saying that my SMN was super decked-out. On the contrary... I'm suggesting that the events that I participate in with my SMN are possible with a SMN in mediocre gear. That's the beauty of it.

If you feel like being an elitist dick, that's your prerogative... but next time, read more carefully before you just decide to rip into someone.

[Greatguardian]

1) I like my attitude.

2) Your level 50 Summoner solo'd Ouryu? Solo'd Snoll while capped? Solo'd Promyvions at level 30/50? Prove it.

3) Nothing required alliances at 75 aside from AV and PW.

4) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTTPwvGC0rY

5) Makes sense, considering gear does so very little for Summoner. Yet another reason why it has practically zero potential for growth beyond mediocrity.

[Arcon]

Pet jobs are shit-tastic. A shit sandwich, if you will. Pet jobs are trash in any large group situation (6+). But don't worry, if it makes you feel good knowing that your super decked Summoner can do mildly unimpressive/mediocre things and keep up with obviously B-tier melee in events designed for players 25 levels lower than you then more power to you.

Sure, compared to the ideal setup maybe. Before people figured out how to do Abyssea properly (MM WHM + RR DD), what was used to kill all the big NMs with ease? Pets. Before people figured out how to do VW properly (spamming temps and stacking Save TP), what did people do to kill all harder NMs? Pets. New limit break fight? People who failed on ten different setups go in as five BST and just watch the Taru die. I've seen entire pet shells beeing built especially for Abyssea alone and quite a few have been out even before then. Pets have always been used successfully in most content I can think of (Odin, anyone?). While they may have never been as time efficient as the ideal setup, they sure as hell are efficient in terms of getting the job done.

The only thing about pets is that they rarely mix well with other setups. Either go full/most pets or fully traditional/alternative setup. Because of that pets and pet playstyle in general takes on a different role too. Sometimes, while not being time-efficient pet approaches would be space-efficient. That is why pets dominated the solo market back in the day (aside from some exceptionally skilled/geared RDM or BLM soloers, but the mage approach is in a similar category). Many pet jobs could solo NMs, quests and missions where others jobs would have trouble duo or even trio. I remember how often I wanted to read up on a fight and checked the testimonials online and saw a lot of SMN and BST there, but no sign of any other solo combination. It's part of the reason why I decided to level SMN in the first place and I can confirm that personally.

I have no problem with pet jobs having their own niche. As it is now, they're not big group friendly, simply because they're not as time-efficient, and these days time is valued more than anything. But they do have other uses and for that they perform extremely well.

[Yygdrasil]

After I correct you this last time... I'm not going to bother with you.

I said I solod most of CoP on my own. Obviously there are missions that required help. Plenty of it can be done... and really quite easily using a kite method or by sneak-popping various NMs from the missions. I never said I did the WHOLE THING. You're reaching.

I wasn't limiting my examples of group play to alliances exclusively. You're reaching again.

Thanks to websense here where I work, I cant view the video you posted, but with a title like "TaruTaru can do anything" I'm sure it was pretty funny but completely off topic. I'll have to pull it up on my phone to accurately comment on that.

Gear does plenty for SMN. Gear allows you to reduce your perp cost, your BP timer, MP management and the effectiveness of your avatar in general. That being said, a naked SMN can do half decently for himself until his/her MP becomes an issue. Gear that helps mitigate that burden makes an enormous difference in longevity and DoT if nothing else.

Anyway, spew all you want. I didn't pick a fight with anyone. You attacking me for my opinions and misquoting me time and time again isn't worth the effort past this point.

I keep subscribed to this in order to stay updated with the forthcoming End Game event I'm looking forward to, not to argue with you. This thread has derailed enough.

[Greatguardian]

@Arcon, So we agree that they're trash in large-group situations. I'll concede exempting the situation where the entire group is pet jobs, though to say that those groups do things efficiently is a joke. They can get the job done, sure. They can throw an infinite number of disposable pokemon at things. That doesn't make them efficient. It makes them mildly viable in large numbers. Kinda like Battlecruisers. I mean, seriously, who masses Battlecruisers? A couple of Wraiths or Valkyries can obliterate them. But hey, get enough together and they can Yamato all ur base.

@Ygg, oh I have nothing to do with this derail. I saw a little pet pity party going on and thought I'd bring up a little thing I like to call reality. Pets are woefully unimpressive and suffer from fundamentally crippling weaknesses, most important the inability to benefit from player buffs like Haste and Berserk. Being content with mediocrity does not make something less mediocre.

[Sparthos]

I beg to differ. Summoners a powerhouse in WoE.

SMN is only a powerhouse because thar event spams high damage AOE that wipes everyone else.

In any setting where instant wipes aren't present SMNs damage is mediocre, hate-free damage is no longer needed thanks to improvements in MP regeneration and the class is light-years behind other classes like any other pet class.

[Yygdrasil]

SMN is only a powerhouse because that event spams high damage AOE that wipes everyone else.

So we agree. Because I that's all I was referencing. I wasn't talking about any other event. I was only talking about WoE. I say SMN is powerhouse in WoE, you say "Yes they are". Nuff said.

[saevel]

SMN is only a powerhouse because thar event spams high damage AOE that wipes everyone else.

In any setting where instant wipes aren't present SMNs damage is mediocre, hate-free damage is no longer needed thanks to improvements in MP regeneration and the class is light-years behind other classes like any other pet class.

No use, their pulling the "I'm a special snow flake" line.

SMN as a job is broke, their pets are weak. Other then PD or SMN procs, why invite a SMN at all. If you want magic damage bring a BLM, if you want melee damage bring one of the long list of DDs. About the only thing SMN is good for is that it's pet is disposable and can easily be brought back, so a few SMN's can just keep tossing pets at something while running away.

Which brings me to a personal beef I had. Awhile back our LS decided to just do a few WoE to screw around. WoE seems ridiculously hard for PUG / random people but it's quite easy for a coordinated LS working together. We did a bunch until one time, as we're clearing floors and killing everything we see a bunch of pets go running off. Few minutes later all hell broke loose as every single enemy along with the zone mega boss came running through. The SMN's had pulled the mega boss and it brought everything with it, those adds wiped our shell. Then for the rest of the fight everyone who entered the zone was instantly wiped by the adds or the zone boss, the only ones who got to stay alive long where the SMN's with their pets. They effectively ruined the entire run for everyone except their little group. From that point on, every run we'd try to do we'd see some SMN group ruining the zone. Sure they got the mega boss kill, but without killing the floor mobs nobody else in the zone built up enough points to get decent loot.

[Sparthos]

beg pardon? there's a reason people complain about pet job users soloing stuff too easily, and it's the pet. Granted, it isn't as easy as those commenters think it is, we pet players that succeed have developed a good bit of skill and we are using it, but most chat displays don't show all those actions due to used chat filters. But if you think pets suck in end-game you need to meet some different players. My pet jobs are REQUESTED to come, because they rock, and I'm only a slightly above average skill player with mediocre gear.

Certainly isn't Voidwatch or anything relevant to today's endgame you're doing then. So pray tell, what is it?

It DOES help if you pick your battles intelligently, but that's true of any job. I avoid anything with Ice Spikes like the plague when I'm soloing on dnc since I can't do anything about the spikes and the cool down on healing waltz makes it impractical, especially since the para may block the waltz, but as bard or pup I have no issues with the spikes. That's just an example, every job has their strengths and weaknesses, it's the player's job to know them and use their character intelligentally and/or build their group to compensate. Pet jobs certainly have their place in the mix, the obvious example is anything that can charm; send in the pets and get out of range; there are many other uses.

Anything that can charm? That's your great place for pet classes? I guess that sums up my argument that pet classes are pathetic in this game relative to other classes.

Pet jobs tend to be good in content with weak/fodder mob which is why BST was so desired in Dynamis but so can alot of other classes like DNC THF NIN BLU RDM.

Pets can tank weak mobs reasonably, act as a tank and facilitate solo. Put that same BST in any event where the mob is tough and the pets ability to do damage plummets sharply, the master runs a huge deficit relative to other DD (BST has no native JA to increase its damage) and the job is dead in the water. The Killer effect boosts are a step in the right direction but it's situational and will not change the fact that a BST without a pet is already in trouble.

And how are you gonna have a pet when everything spams AOEs that wipe your pet?

The fiend is Extremely Vulnerable to Leech Family abilities!
Sparthosx uses Call Beast
Pil readies Flank Opening
FatsoFargann was defeated by Pil
Call Beast (4:50)

Checkmate.

A similar situation plagues PUP as emphasis on the automaton takes away from your own damage (maneuver delay), DAD nuking is largely unnecessary, the pet is frail (Sharpshot damage at a distance is pathetic) and you have no real incentive to field the class. Why would I bring a PUP/BST over a DRG? SAM? WAR? RNG? MNK? DRK? THF? COR?

SE doesn't know or care. Yeah it's a tightrope to balance these classes but as it stands BST is complete shit against HNMs with PUP being slightly better off but way behind any DD with a proper support line.