[dev1047] Thoughts/Feedback on "Legion"

[Yygdrasil]

The word you are looking for is libel, and it is only libel if it isn't true.

Touche'

Nearly everything thus far stated is opinion. There have been a few... X can do Y and A can not do B... facts pointed out but much of the discussion until now has been of the "SMN sucks" or "SMN rocks" persuasion. It's the libel such as "SMN is useless" and "Terrible at every EG event" I'm defending against, not the facts. I wouldn't bother defending against a point like "WAR can DD better than a SMN" or "BLM can nuke better than a SMN". Those are facts.

[Mahoro]

I find fault with the statement that it isn't as useful as ANY other support class job in that role (some of the buffs on my list are unique to SMN, don't overwrite other buffs, and one is the best version of the Haste spell) but I agree that in the FF if 2012, the BP system needs to be reworked.

[Mahoro]

5:30 AOE Haste > 3:00 single-target Haste. And yes, plenty of WHM's I've played with either don't put Haste on all the melee, or they do it once and then are too busy chaincasting Cure V/VI or stat-na'ing to keep up a Haste rotation. IMO, the best SMN will go /WHM and help out with curing and stat-na'ing in between BPs.

The unique stuff SMN brings to the table is one thing, but it's the confluence of all 7 things on my list that makes SMN have a place in my LS activities, at least as much as SCH or RDM. PD has a niche application, but certain fights are impossible without it. EA is just as useful as BRD Scherzo since it stacks, EVA-down makes a big difference on certain fights on which even "decent melees" are stymied (e.g., Lancing Lamorak), SMN stun has a nice-sized length and speed of cast, SMN nukes are helpful on stuff like Botulus Rex, and SMN can hold certain very dangerous mobs which mete out death willy-nilly.

Although I am hesitant to mention VW as it provides SMN with an "artificial" role in the ally, I note that the vast majority of VW /shouts ask for 1 SMN as opposed to other niche proc jobs. Certainly, SMN is in no worse position than NIN, PUP, BST, SCH, RDM. Nobody says "OMG we must have a SMN, NIN, PUP, BST, SCH, RDM," but each job when well-played brings stuff to the table. As for Legion, time will tell.

[Greatguardian]

A RDM can contribute 6 minute Haste, Phalanx 2, Dia 3, and a faster (9 second recast in ideal conditions) stun. Every other nuking mage can contribute more overall magic damage on fights like Botulus Rex, and more importantly they're able to deal it consecutively rather than waiting 45 seconds between casts. Rex is not something you want to leave alive very long, if you know what I mean.

Like I said, Earthen Armor is really the only thing going for it outside of its 2hr.

[Mahoro]

A RDM can contribute 6 minute Haste, Phalanx 2, Dia 3, and a faster (9 second recast in ideal conditions) stun. Every other nuking mage can contribute more overall magic damage on fights like Botulus Rex, and more importantly they're able to deal it consecutively rather than waiting 45 seconds between casts. Rex is not something you want to leave alive very long, if you know what I mean.

Like I said, Earthen Armor is really the only thing going for it outside of its 2hr.

You essentially listed the unique things another job can bring to the table, two of which SMN can't even do so those are inapplicable to my larger point that SMN has a place in endgame. For the other two, fast Stun and 6 minute (non-AOE) Haste are great for RDM, but it doesn't automatically guarantee them a place over a SMN. (EDIT: It's possible SMN Hastega is now 6 minutes, I admit I haven't tested since level cap.) Both SMN and RDM can be characterized as "jack of all trades" jobs. Unfortunately, RDM have gotten the raw end of the deal lately and I don't see RDM played in group situations as much anymore, which is sad because I like that job. I am aware of the consecutive nuking thing though, having mentioned that in two of my posts already. I WILL say that the manaburn Rexes I have been on have ended up with BLM's eating dirt more easily than the SMN.

Draylo, I agree SMN is in desperate need of DEV attention, I think SMN who pretend everything is well are fooling themselves. If your comment was directed to me, I never expressed that sentiment.

[Draylo]

SMN is in desperate need of DEV attention, please stop trying to pretend everything is well.

[Yygdrasil]

I agree that changes need to be made. I just don't agree that it needs to be a complete overhaul. I've stated before that a reduction to the BP timer floor from 45 seconds to 30 would make a huge impact on the job as it currently is. I also agree that our avatars need to have their base melee damage increased to be at least moderate as opposed to doing nothing more than offsetting an NM's auto-regen (if applicable).

Whatever they have planned for spirits had better be life-changing or it might as well be scrapped. I really can't picture much of anything that they could do to make spirits anything more than Siphon Sacrifices.

I cant vouch for everyone here, but I never said that we were "Fine just the way we are". All I'm doing to saying that we're not the utter and complete garbage that some people are saying. We have our uses and we have our things that we're good at... but as with any job, of course we need to have some thing changed and adjusted to make the job work better. I don't think there's a single job in the game that claims to be perfect.

[Mahoro]

Anyway, how 'bout dat Legion?! Anybody participating in the NA Legion test server stuff?

[Greatguardian]

Anyway, how 'bout dat Legion?! Anybody participating in the NA Legion test server stuff?

I'll probably be there on an alt account. I didn't buy ASA on my main and have no real plans to.

[Greatguardian]

I'll probably be there on an alt account. I didn't buy ASA on my main and have no real plans to.

^ Update on this. Went to the event, had about 55~ people. The 18-man group got demolished. The 33-ish-man group got demolished in round 1 and then killed Wave 1 in round 2 before getting demolished by the second wave.

I love it.