[dev1047] Thoughts/Feedback on "Legion"

[Yygdrasil]

Aww.... Mahoro! How did I not meet you when I was on Lakshmi!?

Friend Count: 2

Gettin there...

[Yygdrasil]

Remove the timer completely? No... that would be absurd. Doing that would make SMNs TOOOOOOOOO powerful for our own good. Think in terms of Abyssea for a second... if nothing else.

My Tarutaru SMN has 1800mp. Let's say on average my BPs cost 150mp and deal around 4k damage. What you're suggesting would turn me into a hate-free BLM with no casting time. I could effectively nuke back to back with Diamond Dust until my MP went dry... and then pop temps like ethers/elixers/dusts to keep it going... not to mention having a COR, BRD and RDM backing me up with refresh out the ying yang.

150 / 1800 = 12 BPs (not counting any form of refresh)

12 X 4000 = 52,000 damage in less than 1 minute.

You just turned a SMN into a brew without a timer.

[Kimble]

This seems to be the biggest problem with getting SMN proper, good buffs. To many of the, get butt hurt when people give out the cold hard fact that SMN DD is lacking to any other job that can DD and go on about how awesome their job is instead of agreeing with the truth and asking for buffs to fix it.

[Mahoro]

You do say super dedicated SMN can earn their slot in endgame, which is all I was arguing when listing the 7 reasons SMN has a role at the moment.

Never claimed "Super OMG" status on anything, those are qualifiers YOU are introducing to the mix. In any event, applying "must have" or "OMG awesome sauce" to some of the stuff in your list is a bit of a stretch to say the least ("Generic SAM", "SCH JA's", and "pretty much all the DD's" don't exactly take my breath away, barring Embrava.) Regarding "BLM nukes", SMN can mostly hold their own with proper gear and 5/5 merit pacts, the only difference being the 45 second limiter since BLM's can now spam spells with abandon in endgame 2012. And by your own yardstick of judging jobs what they can do "on average" the list is also stretching as well, since you are including Empys, Relic, and 2hrs. As for /RDM, I actually don't agree they should run /RDM in the days of temp spamming/Abyssea. I always go /WHM and help heal in between 45 second BP's, what the hell else would I do? Believe me, the WHM in my ally are grateful for the help.

I actually agree with the latter half of both of your posts, especially what you say about BP timers. I agree the job needs serious fixing on the timer end. Not abolishment of the timer, but a lowering of the BP- delay cap.

[Economizer]

Summoner, while a great concept and a wonderful looking job, could definitely use some tweaks to make it more useful in more varied content.

Heck turn it into a charge system at the absolute minimum so unused 60s time periods could stack up to be used in sequence.

This would probably be interesting at least. It is really too bad they don't test extreme mechanics on the test server with the statement "this will probably never be implemented, but we want to get data from it being tested" like certain other gaming companies test some things.

Back to your idea, I like the concept of this at very least, it would preserve the usefulness of BP reduction gear and they could copy it from Scholar (although they could keep separate timers for Rage/Ward to make it more unique and retain balance). Thus at low levels you'd only get one charge with a sixty second timer, or basically, no change. But at higher levels you'd get more charges and maybe even a little recast reduction. They could increase the recast cap as well.

Then, on top of this they could have a job ability Summoners could spam that sacrifices a large amount of MP and causes a hate spike to get more charges (or some mixture of those as a cost of usage). You'd be able to have emnityless actions, but if you wanted an extra "oomph" you could start dipping into the monster's hate list (which would be more risky solo, so this mechanic would be great for parties).

On Avatar auto-attack rounds there might be better suggestions but I'll give a few.

• Summoning Magic Skill as their weapon "skill" in terms of attack/accuracy boost (if it isn't used already).
• Enspells based on Summoning Magic Skill like many have suggested.
• Temper effect based on Summoning Magic Skill after obtaining 300 base skill.
• "Job Ability" category haste based on Summoning Magic Skill
  With the current 500 skill effectiveness cap, Skill/20 -> Haste% or 500/20 -> 25% "Job Ability" Haste.

This in tandem with other tweaks will greatly help auto-attack damage (and if some are too powerful they should either not get implemented or as an alternative be based on Summoning Magic currently on the wearer rather then on cast of the avatar, which would force more tactical trade offs).

[Greatguardian]

I'll never claim that Summoner can't be useful in a support role. It's just not as useful as, well, any other Support-class job in that role. It could be worse, and it's certainly less of a gap than it is with Damage, but Summoner is really no better than Red Mage in a pure support role (and Rdm is pretty bad in that role right now).

I don't want to hijack the thread too much, but honestly the entire BP system needs to be scrapped if Summoner wants to become a worthwhile job. It's just plain bad design.

[Yygdrasil]

I'll never claim that Summoner can't be useful in a support role.

I don't want to hijack the thread too much, but honestly the entire BP system needs to be scrapped if Summoner wants to become a worthwhile job. It's just plain bad design.

I believe you already claimed that SMN can't be useful EVER. iirc... "EVER" inherently includes "SOMETIMES". Pick a side man...

Also: It's far too late to try and prevent this train from derailing. Several people... yourself included... have poked the proverbial bear when you started slandering SMN.

Welcome to the Thunderdome

[SpankWustler]

Welcome to the Thunderdome

This opens discussion of a whole other pet job altogether...

[Greatguardian]

I believe you already claimed that SMN can't be useful EVER. iirc... "EVER" inherently includes "SOMETIMES". Pick a side man...

Also: It's far too late to try and prevent this train from derailing. Several people... yourself included... have poked the proverbial bear when you started slandering SMN.

Welcome to the Thunderdome

The proverbial bear is everything that's wrong with Summoner.

The job will never see a meaningful fix as long as retards run around screaming to everyone who will listen that it's "Just fine how it is". Summoner is terrible and you are doing nothing but hurting it by pretending otherwise.

@Maho, Eva down and Attack down are fairly insignificant. Attack down will hardly affect a monster you're fighting with 6+ people unless you have a 2,000+ Defense Paladin, and Eva Down is meaningless for most decent melees. Earthen Armor and Perfect Defense are the only things on your list that Summoner really brings to the table, and EA on its own is hardly as competitive as what most any other Support class brings in.

Haste is also Haste. I really do wonder at the average quality of Whms that people on these forums play with when they assert that Whms don't put Haste up and never have 50% Cure potency gear (Not you, but a common argument elsewhere on the forums). Summoner isn't bringing anything with Hastega but a bit of MP that the mage isn't spending.

[Economizer]

slandering SMN

The word you are looking for is libel, and it is only libel if it isn't true.

Haste is also Haste. I really do wonder at the average quality of Whms that people on these forums play with when they assert that Whms don't put Haste up and never have 50% Cure potency gear (Not you, but a common argument elsewhere on the forums). Summoner isn't bringing anything with Hastega but a bit of MP that the mage isn't spending.

I'd suggest to use nicer words but I'm not sure that would work to help convince in this case...

On White Mages casting Haste? That's a Bard, Scholar, or Red Mage's job! But seriously, while I understand the statement about White Mages having better things to do (unless lowman it is a waste of a White Mage's time and MP to Haste anyone but their self if at all possible - not that fights go ideally), they should know how to do it if the situation calls for it.

While Abyssea burn victim White Mages (you know the ones, they don't bother beyond a Light Staff and a Noble's, and don't learn anything about how to play the job other then "spam Cure VI 'cuz it R heal bigger") are an issue, I don't see how someone who couldn't put a couple hours into WHM could hope to play a good Summoner when Summoning Magic is so important but so hard to skill.

5:30 AOE Haste > 3:00 single-target Haste.

Red Mage's haste last longer. Scholar's can last longer too. Bards can cap it solo. Also, Dispel.

and then are too busy chaincasting Cure V/VI

If the White Mage has to chaincast cures and Cure VI is part of that chaincast more then once in a minute period unweakened, it is usually the sign something is seriously wrong somewhere. It could be the White Mage, the party, or both, but Cure VI is a steaming pile of crap outside of extreme emergency single target curing when both Cure IV and Cure V are down and if you come to a situation where you have to use it then someone in that situation should feel bad about it.