[dev1047] Thoughts/Feedback on "Legion"

[SpankWustler]

I keep hearing people say it's hard to test legion on the test server and the reps are having to step in to organise them for any testing to happen at all, didn't they say Legion would scale to the number of participants? I'm guessing they either scrapped that idea or it sucks as bad as the other scalable stuff they tried to add over the years.

36 players or nothing?

According to the most recent quote that mentioned the scaling system, there are basically two modes. One for ~18 people and one for 19~ people. So, it does scale but not to a large degree.

The intent is seemingly for smaller groups to kill fewer monsters but still reap some rewards.

[Mahoro]

I'm a career SMN and I'll be the first to admit SMN is extremely handicapped by its 45-second BP/JA timers in a way other jobs aren't, but I pretty much agreed with everything Arcon said above.

SMN always has a place in my LS's big-group activities. Here are just 7:

1) procs in VW
2) Perfect Defense for AV/ADL
3) another stun that surprisingly sticks longer than you'd think
4) holding mobs where death is meted out handily in ways not easily preventable (Aello, Ig-Alima, Botulus Rex, all Mantis)
5) EVA down and ATTK down debuffs that stick for quite awhile, and make a difference in some key VW fights
6) 5 minute AOE haste (assuming the SMN is well-geared/skilled)
7) Earthen Armor (Scherzo caps at 45%, what people WOULDN'T want a move that stacks with Scherzo to 80% mitigation?)

The people trying to compare it to a WAR are obviously going to find shortcomings....what melee wants to be compared to an Ukon WAR? SMN will never be DD on that level, because it would be too overpowered in solo situations. But what SMN does, it does well.

The biggest issue is that with temp items and spammable magic/WS, SMN got left behind because of the BP/JA timer. Hopefully SE will fix that.

[saevel]

I'm a career SMN and I'll be the first to admit SMN is extremely handicapped by its 45-second BP/JA timers in a way other jobs aren't, but I pretty much agreed with everything Arcon said above.

SMN always has a place in my LS's big-group activities. Here are just 7:

1) procs in VW
2) Perfect Defense for AV/ADL
3) another stun that surprisingly sticks longer than you'd think
4) holding mobs where death is meted out handily in ways not easily preventable (Aello, Ig-Alima, Botulus Rex, all Mantis)
5) EVA down and ATTK down debuffs that stick for quite awhile, and make a difference in some key VW fights
6) 5 minute AOE haste (assuming the SMN is well-geared/skilled)
7) Earthen Armor (Scherzo caps at 45%, what people WOULDN'T want a move that stacks with Scherzo to 80% mitigation?)

The people trying to compare it to a WAR are obviously going to find shortcomings....what melee wants to be compared to an Ukon WAR? SMN will never be DD on that level, because it would be too overpowered in solo situations. But what SMN does, it does well.

The biggest issue is that with temp items and spammable magic/WS, SMN got left behind because of the BP/JA timer. Hopefully SE will fix that.

Those are all nice, but none of them scream *must have* or *OMG Awesome Sauce* and many of those interfere with each other due to that damn timer.

I don't hate pet jobs, I just really wish SE would get around to fixing them. In SMN's case just remove the damn BP timers so SMN can be awesome. That and make your summons have higher more specialized stats.

[Mahoro]

Those are all nice, but none of them scream *must have* or *OMG Awesome Sauce* and many of those interfere with each other due to that damn timer.

I don't hate pet jobs, I just really wish SE would get around to fixing them. In SMN's case just remove the damn BP timers so SMN can be awesome. That and make your summons have higher more specialized stats.

What IS a must have or OMG awesome sauce these days....besides possibly Wildfire COR, Ukon WAR, and WHM....

Not that I ever claimed those qualifiers for any of the SMN moves I listed, just listing that is why SMN always has a place in endgame stuff.

[Greatguardian]

What IS a must have or OMG awesome sauce these days....besides possibly Wildfire COR, Ukon WAR, and WHM....

Not that I ever claimed those qualifiers for any of the SMN moves I listed, just listing that is why SMN always has a place in endgame stuff.

Literally every job in the game can outdamage Avatars in a group situation (6+ people). It's going a bit beyond "Not the best".

Before I'm asked for proof, 1 word answer: Haste.

[Economizer]

Literally every job in the game can outdamage

Before I'm asked for proof

Awe... but then how do we get you to math out 5 WHM + 1 BRD vs. 6 SMN? Pretty please with maple sugar on top?

[Mahoro]

Literally every job in the game can outdamage Avatars in a group situation (6+ people). It's going a bit beyond "Not the best".

Before I'm asked for proof, 1 word answer: Haste.

Which I wasn't addressing in the posts you are quoting. I listed 7 reasons why SMN has a place in large-group events, the confluence of which actually gives them a unique place in such events. Damage wasn't one of them. I specifically said we are hampered by our JA/BP timers. I am under no illusion that SMN can out-DD many Hasted melee, except perhaps on some heavily melee-resistant mobs.

But if you want to TALK about Haste, I might as well reiterate that 1 of the 7 reasons I listed is 5:30 minute AOE Haste, which enables some of the very "outdamaging" you cite. With the caliber of WHM I've played with in PUG's, and VW mobs that cause such bad AOE that the WHM is chaincasting Cure V and VI, it is quite common for a melee to go without Haste for most, if not all, of the battle. The SMN is sometimes more reliable in keeping up a Haste rotation than the WHM. One button press and it's taken care of for 5:30 minutes (or less if the SMN isn't capped skill). That's quite a bit beyond "Not the best."

[saevel]

What IS a must have or OMG awesome sauce these days....besides possibly Wildfire COR, Ukon WAR, and WHM....

Not that I ever claimed those qualifiers for any of the SMN moves I listed, just listing that is why SMN always has a place in endgame stuff.

Emp WAR / MNK, pimped DRG, generic SAM, pretty much all the "DD"s. WHM's super cures. PLD's Brochain / Aegis (although tanking isn't much these days). BRD's super buffs, COR's super buffs, QD and WF. SCH's massive assortment of JA's, or even their 2H which is a miniature brew (although limited outside abyssea). BLM's mega nukes. Heck even broken RDM has more use's then SMN.

SMN has ... BP procs and .... PD zergs. BP procs are only VWNM, which is currently the ~only~ "end game" available, once Legion / Nyzule get back SMN's usefulness drops to near zero.

And removing the BP timers would not break SMN. Summing time + readying time + dismissal time would ensure there was a limit on what they could do. If removal is too much, then make them 15s. There is no excuse why SMN can only do one cool thing per 60s for each type of move. You can either do stoneskin, or heal or remove status ailments, but no combination of the three. Heck turn it into a charge system at the absolute minimum so unused 60s time periods could stack up to be used in sequence.

[Afania]

Those are all nice, but none of them scream *must have* or *OMG Awesome Sauce* and many of those interfere with each other due to that damn timer.

I don't hate pet jobs, I just really wish SE would get around to fixing them. In SMN's case just remove the damn BP timers so SMN can be awesome. That and make your summons have higher more specialized stats.

Actually PD is one of the most game changing ability in this game. I wouldn't say it's not "OMG Awesome sauce".

[Yygdrasil]

@Arcon: You and I can be friends.