Cure V

[cidbahamut]

I was bringing up those points to illustrate that even at its best, WHM is barely ahead of RDM for longevity, otherwise known as brute cure power.

If you mean MP endurance then say MP endurance because it's a completely different kettle of fish than Curing.

Giving RDM Cure V would put it close enough to WHM that it would be determined "good enough" for main healing duties.

Oh noes, a Red Mage being able to fill multiple roles? We can't have this Jack-of-All-Trades nonsense unless it relates to swinging a sword, amirite?

What many of the pro camp here doesn't realize, or they do and are being dishonest, is that giving RDM Cure V would put it back into the exact same position as it was in 2005/2006.

Because nothing in this game has changed in the last six years, right?

Forever locked into three spells (Haste Cure Refresh). That is a very very bad thing. RDM's don't want to be stuck main healing four to five melee's, its stressful and ultimately its a suck position to be forced into.

Getting stuck with it? No.
Having the versatility to cover that function when the White Mage bites the dust so we don't wipe while they're reraising/recovering from weakness? Absolutely.

[cidbahamut]

Of course you have many people coming in that have absolutely zero intentions of playing the job and instead want to use other RDM's to heal them rather then having to find a WHM. Or worse, they play RDM but only as a method to acquire gear for their PUP, BST, DRG, SMN, COR or what have you. They don't care about the job nor actually enjoying the job, but just it's viability / desirability as a loot whore.

Yes, because the opinions of Red Mages don't count unless they adhere to your specific vision of the job. Because no one who disagrees with you could possibly consider Red Mage their main job. Because no one with a differing opinion could be anything other than a dirty filthy DD who leveled RDM to get more DD shinies. Because no one who takes the time to argue at length about a job could possibly actually care about the job.

You're full of it saevel.

[Doombringer]

Oh noes, a Red Mage being able to fill multiple roles? We can't have this Jack-of-All-Trades nonsense unless it relates to swinging a sword, amirite?

i've been trying to stay out of this one, since.. i'm not actually even against cureV.. but comon cid.. this implies we in the melee camp have gotten everything we asked for and you supported us in that endeavor. when in fact you fought us tooth and nail and a lot of your side has been implying we're retarded for even wanting the things we want.

i'm not arguing against cure5 here, i'm just saying i never saw you arguing for vorpal blade, or whatever else.. so don't act like he's somehow not keeping up his end of the bargain. you're playing the same card at your same convenience.


honestly i'd like to have cure5... i've always said i never wanted to JUST melee on rdm, so i'm happy to cure someone up before they bleed out. and i'd like them to feel it when i do.. but i'm still not gonna agree to main heal anybodys alliance either, so it's not gonna hurt me personally.

[cidbahamut]

You're not making much sense Doom, and I think you're misreading what I intend by my statement.

There are many people who make the argument for melee updates based on the outdated concept blurb of "Jack-of-all-Trades". Now I see these same people kicking and screaming about how we can't have Cure V because it means we'll be able to fill another role, something one would think would appeal given the Jack-of-all-Trades line or reasoning they cling to. But no, they don't see it like that. Why? Because they're holding a double-standard. Jack-of-all-Trades is a reason to get things, but only if it's the things they want(read: melee), but not if it's something that would benefit the job that they don't care for(read: healing).

[Doombringer]

yah, i get that. but my point was... aren't you kinda doing the same thing? just in the opposite order?

or now i guess you're just throwing out the jack-of-all-trades card to make a point, and don't actually subscribe to the idea.

[CapriciousOne]

Why this thread has reached 200 posts boggles my mind. RDM without cure V by now is pure insanity and a load of hogwash. This ain't even remotely in the same league as Utsusemi San, for example. Why the hell is this even a debate? Are people just trolling each other? WHM will destroy RDM even if it had cure VI so I don't know why RDM doesn't have cure V yet. If it and SCH reach 99 without that spell it will be one of the greatest injustices I've ever seen in this games history.

WHM has a solid #1 lead for healer. RDM having access to cure V is never going to make the slightest difference to that lead. What it will do for RDM is make it once more a viable #2 healer to spot heal for the WHM. That is why you give RDM cure V and this thread should end now. But it won't, because people don't want to think about jobs working together as a team to fit the roles they are designed for, they just want their job to be better than the other period so they are ensured invites on the job they want.

Yep, this is FFXI, alright.

A- freaking-MEN bro, I couldn't have said it better myself and has always been my issue. I dont like main healing myself and will refuse invites if one even ask me to. Even further if I am in the party already and ask me to do so I will leave it. Sure I can fulfill the role but the fact of the matter is whm is designed to fulfill that role BY DESIGN. I and i'm sure many other RDM would have no problem lending the WHM their support but expecting to do it all just is ass backwards to me when another job is more qualified. It is more about ego and wanting thier favorite job to be better than everybody elses for most people. I just ask for stuff that make my solo game more manageable myself. I dont need to be better than everybody else I just like not being dependent on others to get crap done and is why I chose RDM in the first place. Sometimes I think people lose sight of that with this job. You're not meant to be the best at everything just sufficient enough to get shit done by leveraging ALL of your skills not MELEE only or MAGIC only, but BOTH. Anything more than that to me is just greedy and is a display of complete incompetence at the job and the game.

[cidbahamut]

yah, i get that. but my point was... aren't you kinda doing the same thing? just in the opposite order?

or now i guess you're just throwing out the jack-of-all-trades card to make a point, and don't actually subscribe to the idea.

That second one there.

[Airyl]

I'm leaning more in favor of the "Let's see what fancy enfeebling (or enhancing!) spell we could make up to make us not need cure V after all!" school of thought. I mean, I'd like a new healing spell that functioned like a cure 4.5 or something too, but while we're here and before anything's been decided let's at least try and be creative to try and make red mage the most interesting and exciting job it can be! :3

When thinking about this problem, my first instinct was basically to give red mage a single target spell for the party (or alliance?) that functioned kind of like shell does but for physical damage taken. Since the defense stat is kind of retarded at this point, % reductions are always good things, but even that's kind of boring / as potentially overpowering and scary as cure V would be.

I'm interested to know what you'd all think of a "stop" spell with a very long recast. Basically stun with moar duration. Obviously mobs can gain resistance and would probably gain resistance very quickly.

Perhaps a spell that temporarily locks a monsters normal physical attacks, but let's them cast spells or take other special actions that don't rely on physical damage output?

Just a few random thoughts.

[saevel]

A- freaking-MEN bro, I couldn't have said it better myself and has always been my issue. I dont like main healing myself and will refuse invites if one even ask me to. Even further if I am in the party already and ask me to do so I will leave it. Sure I can fulfill the role but the fact of the matter is whm is designed to fulfill that role BY DESIGN. I and i'm sure many other RDM would have no problem lending the WHM their support but expecting to do it all just is ass backwards to me when another job is more qualified. It is more about ego and wanting thier favorite job to be better than everybody elses for most people. I just ask for stuff that make my solo game more manageable myself. I dont need to be better than everybody else I just like not being dependent on others to get crap done and is why I chose RDM in the first place. Sometimes I think people lose sight of that with this job. You're not meant to be the best at everything just sufficient enough to get shit done by leveraging ALL of your skills not MELEE only or MAGIC only, but BOTH. Anything more than that to me is just greedy and is a display of complete incompetence at the job and the game.

While I support you in theory, one of the previous posters has already demonstrated that a RDM with Cure V wouldn't be very far behind WHM in cure power. Blame it on SE's rotten scaling of Healing Magic Skill as it effects Cures. In real use people would just see "Cure V" and immediately throw the RDM into a main healing spot. They've been doing that since 2004, it's not gonna change all of a sudden. Doing this would immediately end any and all enhancements SE would do to RDM. Cause no matter what, for all eternity people would just see RDM has a healer -1. Not the best but "good enough", and that's all people care about. Heck I've seen many alliances try to main heal with RDM's right now, doesn't work very well, and you get one tired RDM, but they thing Cure = main healer.

I don't mind supporting a WHM and taking on part of the healing load, and Cure V would make that tons easier. But I would get to "support" for about two weeks until people noticed that you can just do WHM + RDM/WHM x 2 in an 18 main alliance instead of WHM x 3. Of course the WHM would take care of the two tanks, but the RDM's would be forced to babysit the melee's or if he's lucky the BLMs.

[Seriha]

yah, i get that. but my point was... aren't you kinda doing the same thing? just in the opposite order?

or now i guess you're just throwing out the jack-of-all-trades card to make a point, and don't actually subscribe to the idea.

There's different paths to same destination, and from the support angle, I subscribe to the camp that Enfeebles should be our 'curative buff' since damage prevented is effectively damage cured over time. With SE pimping SCH as the Regen masters now, that's the only alternative avenue left assuming we're striving to diversify jobs.

Considering this thread was pretty much hatched with the intent to troll, while some good things may have come out of it, Cure V is still the quickest and surest way to deal a blow to RDM's versatility without other additions following in kind (Granted, I feel our nuking is pretty much set aside from guaranteeing accuracy on harder prey). Given how apprehensive SE was about giving RDM anything under the 75 cap because they were "just good enough" to take a WHM's spot in many locations among glamorized soloist exploits, those not interested in repeating that fate have every right to be concerned. It's a fine line between "Jack of All Trades" and "Jack of All Trades, but Best Suited For Healing, so Don't You Dare Do Anything Else."